Hṛdayānanda: But if I say that... If I, I'm originally in the spiritual world, but even the potential to fall down is an imperfection in the creation.
Prabhupāda: No, potential does not fall down. Just like a child has got the potency to pass the M.A. examination. So he has to be educated. If you don't educate him, he'll remain a foolish child. So we are educating to develop that potentiality.
- nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema sādhya kabhu naya
- śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya
- (Cc. madhya 22.107)
They, that potentiality is eternal. God is eternal. We are eternal. Our relationship, eternal. Everything is eternal. But because we are small, minute fragments, sometimes we fall down.
Hṛdayānanda: They say, "God should have, God should have created us so that we..."
Prabhupāda: Why you should dictate God? God has created perfectly. He has given you independence. You fall down. It is your fault. God has made you perfect, given you independence. But if you misuse your independence, you fall down. Just like government gives everyone opportunity. Why do you become criminal and go to the jail? That is your fault.
Hṛdayānanda: They say that God should have created us so that we...
Prabhupāda: Why "Should have created"? He has created already perfect. Because you are perfect, therefore you have got the independence to misuse. You are not a dead stone. That is perfection. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). You can go anywhere, sarva-ga. You can go to the Vaikuṇṭha. Yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can go to the higher planets. You can go to the hell. When you go to the hell, it is your choice. God has given you all perfection. Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation), everything is complete, perfect, and because you are perfect, you have got the independence. But misusing that independence, you are imperfect. Again, reviving your independence, you can become perfect, although you are imperfect now. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means raising the imperfect to the perfect platform. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other fools, they say, "We are perfect now." In a fallen condition also, they're thinking perfect. That is māyā. Āsurīṁ rākṣasīṁ caiva mohinīṁ prakṛtiṁ śritāḥ. Kṛṣṇa has made you perfect. There is no doubt about it. Just like some of our students. All of a sudden, they deviate, go away. So what is that? Our movement is imperfect, or he's imperfect?
Hṛdayānanda: He's imperfect.
Prabhupāda: He's imperfect. Our movement is perfect. But he becomes imperfect by his misuse of independence. He thinks that "This is nice," and goes to hell. What can be done? That independence is there. That is perfectness.
Hṛdayānanda: So in other words, these, uh, the people that argue like that, they, they actually are lazy. They don't want to surrender to God. Then they blame God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they have become imperfect, therefore they are blaming God. "God is good;" they forget this. That is their imperfectness. One side, they say, "God is good." Still, they're blaming God. What is this nonsense? If He's God, God is good, how can you blame Him? God is good; in all circumstances, He's good. That is the meaning of good. Good does not mean that one time you are good and next time you are bad.
Karandhara: Just like the criminals blame the government for being in the prison house.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is natural. Yes. Surāśū-sākṣimat. Surāśū-sākṣimat. In the liquor shop so there was some trouble. So he went to court. He went to court. So the court asked him, "Where is your witness?" So he brought one witness, drunkard. You see? Surāśū-sākṣimat. So that is māyā, ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8), misusing power and blaming God, "Why God...?" God has made everything. Just like here. It is made not to move. Stay. But we are better than this. Is it not? It cannot move. So God has made this also. But because we can move, we are better than this. And if, if, if they say that "God, why he has made me to commit mistake?" This rascal does not understand that that is freedom. You, why don't you take the right one? God says, "This is right." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Why don't you take it? And still, how you can say God is bad? What is the argument?
Umāpati: Well, the argument is that if God is so all-powerful, why does He even let me fall?
Umāpati: If God is so powerful, why does He let me fall. Why doesn't He save me, save me from my own foolishness. Why doesn't He...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, He's saving you, but you don't carry His order.
Umāpati: Yes, but it's not recognized.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like I say, "Chant sixteen rounds." If you do not do it. What can I do? That is your fault.
Satsvarūpa: If God were to force us, there'd be no love.
Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no. Force is not good. Force is there. Force is there. The māyā is another force.
Prajāpati: There's a large segment of the population today who say, "We only speak about God in terms of our own relationships with each other." So one group, they say, "This is all male chauvinism, to say God is a male. Actually, we are saying now the women should be elevated so God is woman for us." They say like that.
Prabhupāda: God... But uh... Well, that's all right. God is male and female both. God, our God, sometimes He takes the form of female, Mohinī-mūrti. Mohinī-mūrti. But comparatively studying, God is puruṣa, male.
Umāpati: He's always a potency.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. He is potent.
Umāpati: He's always the supreme potency.
Prabhupāda: He is potential. That means you manufacture God. Sometimes you manufacture God as male, sometimes you manufacture God is female. Is it not? Is it not your theory? As you say, "Now we accept female as God," that means you manufacture God. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: And what you manufacture, is that God?
Prajāpati: They see...
Prabhupāda: What do you manufacture? You are imperfect. So whatever you manufacture, that is imperfect. How it can be God?
Prajāpati: Well, God is simply the way we view each other, relationship with each other, as the...
Prabhupāda: Well, that is your manufacture. Why do you say like that? Each other's relationship? The relationship already there. What is to make new there? The already... God is great, and we are small. The relationship is already there. So how you can make another relationship? God is great. Is it not? God is great. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: And then what you are? You are small.
Prabhupāda: So relationship already there. So what relationship you are creating again? It is already there. God is great; you are small. The relationship is already there. He's Creator. You are the created. He's the predominator. You are the predominated. He's the master. You are the servant. This is already there. And what new thing you can create? This is already there. He's master. And He's... Why you are covering? Because God has given this season. So you are dependent. You have to cover. You cannot make it immediately sunshining summer season. That is not within your power. Therefore He's great. You are small. This relationship is already there. Therefore He's master, you are servant. That is the real eternal relationship. What new relationship you can create. It is not possi... It is not possible. He's creator. Are you creator? Can you create anything? Then how you can be master? You are always servant. So relationship is already there. How you can change it? That is speculation.