Śyāmasundara: But that statement, "It can be seen that my father had a father had a father," that can be seen.
Prabhupāda: No. That is not seen; that is perceived. Perceived. (Sanskrit) It is called (Sanskrit). I can think of like that, yes. That is perception.
Śyāmasundara: So in order for us to say like that, something that cannot be shown cannot be said, he says. That if we say something...
Prabhupāda: Even if it cannot be shown, it is a fact. Not that because it cannot be shown, it is not a fact.
Śyāmasundara: But everything you say, you are also showing, you are also giving examples that we can perceive. Just like the body, you say the soul has left the body so the body does not move. So even though it cannot be seen, the soul is leaving the body.
Prabhupāda: "It cannot be seen" means you have no seeing power. You cannot see beyond this wall, but that does not mean that because it cannot be seen, that is not fact. That is another foolishness. You have no seeing power. You admit your imperfection. Why you are proposing like that, "Because it cannot be seen"?
Śyāmasundara: No. Because it cannot be shown, he says. But it can be shown.
Prabhupāda: It can be shown, but you have no eyes to see. That is my proposal. Your eyes are just as blind man. If he says that "Show me this," how he can see? He is blind man. So you are blind, you cannot see, but those who have eyes, they can see. Therefore they say, śāstra cakṣuṣa: don't believe those eyes. Śāstra cakṣuṣa. Make the śāstra your cakṣuṣa. That is Vedic position. Don't see with these naked eyes. What is the value of your eyes? Why are you so much proud of your eyes? You cannot see. You see under certain conditions. Therefore adhaksi(?) Adhaksi means those who believe only the eyes. And what is the value of the eyes? That you won't admit, that "I am blind." He won't say. He will say simply, "I cannot see." How you can see? You're blind. That he won't admit, that he's blind. He will simply say that "I cannot see; therefore I don't agree." But you are blind!
Śyāmasundara: It seems to me, in all of your propositions, you are also showing by practical example how this is true. You do not... It's not in the air, so we cannot perceive it in some way.
Prabhupāda: Nothing is in the air. Everything is fact. But if somebody says, although it is fact, "I cannot see, therefore it is not fact," that is not a good proposal.
Śyāmasundara: You give the evidence: the body is suddenly stopping moving. That is evidence. Even though we cannot see the soul, perhaps, but the evidence is there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like on a cloudy day we cannot see the sun, but because there is light, so we say, "Yes, there is sun."
Śyāmasundara: Evidence.
Prabhupāda: Evidence. Similarly, the evidence is the moving capacity. Because the body is moving, there is soul. It doesn't matter if you can see or not see. It doesn't matter. When the motor is moving, there is gas. You may not see the gas. It is foolishness, that "I have not seen the gas. When it is put in?" (break) ...dark, now it is light. How I am saying there is a darkness? It is (indistinct)
Devotee: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: What is past, present, future for a man is not the past, present, future for Brahmā. Therefore this past, present, future is relative. And Kṛṣṇa is eternal. He has no past, present and future.
Devotee: I can understand how the past and future can be...
Prabhupāda: Past, present and future is relative to your body. Because you have got a limited body, therefore you have got past, present, future. Otherwise there is no past, present, future.
Devotee: But there is present for everyone.
Devotee (2): But that is also due to that body.
Devotee: But the past and the future are simply reminiscences and projections of (indistinct), but the present is existing for everyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That past means, just like what you say. The past, present, future for an ant is different from your past, present, future.
Devotee: Why?
Prabhupāda: Because your body is different.
Devotee: The experience of the past, present and the future is different.
Prabhupāda: My point is there is no past, present, future. This experience is gathered according to your body.
Devotee: The experiences are different, but it doesn't alter the (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) actually there is no past, present, future. That is my position.
Devotee: In the same way, the Buddhists say there is no soul. They say that the soul is completely dependent upon the body.
Prabhupāda: That we can reply. Why there is no soul? What is the distinction between that, that we already discussed. Don't bother about that.
Devotee: We would say there is no past, or is our perception of the past is false?
Prabhupāda: Time is eternal. There is no past, present, future. We perceive past, present, future due to this body. Just like Kṛṣṇa has no past, present, future.