Prabhupāda: No, no, I shall learn. I shall...
Dr. Wolf: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are used to cheating and so they couldn't believe Kṛṣṇa either...
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes.
Dr. Wolf: They are used to cheating and that's why they don't trust anything and anybody.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Sceptic.
Dr. Wolf: Because they are cheaters themselves.
Prabhupāda: Sceptic is not a scientist or a man of knowledge. He's unbeliever, that's all.
Rūpānuga: Sceptic can actually not have full knowledge, he can never have full knowledge.
Prabhupāda: No.
Devotee (1): The scientists, they cannot understand the (indistinct), they can understand what is the relationship between the world of ideas, the world of names, and the world that they see. How can we explain what that means?
Prabhupāda: There is spiritual and material. The material is simply a phantasmagoria. It is the imitation of the reality. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, fifteenth chapter, find out. Ūrdhva-mūlam adhah-śākham (BG 15.1). That is called mirage. In the desert the animal is finding water. There is no water in the desert. But there is water, but not in the desert. That they do not know. So this is just like desert, this material world and everything is reflection like the water. But desert there is no water, it is only reflection. Tejo-vāri-mṛdāṁ vinimayo yatra tri-sargo 'mṛṣā. Tejo-vāri-mṛdāṁ vinimayaḥ. Here everything is a transformation of three material things, fire, water, and earth, but it looks like reality. Just like the mirage, that is also tejo-vāri-mṛdāṁ vinimayaḥ, by reflection of the sun falling on the sand, and it looks like water. This is (indistinct). And the animal is running after water, running, running, running, when he becomes fatigued (he) dies. That's all.
Devotee (1): But here in the material world when we look for water, we actually take it and we can drink it.
Prabhupāda: That is not water! That you do not know.
Devotee (1): That's not water either.
Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that?
Satsvarūpa: Ūrdhva-mūlam adhah-śākham. "The blessed Lord said: 'There is a banyan tree which has its roots upward and its branches down and whose leaves are the Vedic hymns. One who knows this tree is a knower of the Vedas.' "
Prabhupāda: Ūrdhva-mūlam adhah-śākham (BG 15.1). Where you have experienced this tree? You have experience: a tree is adhaḥ, down, a mūla, the root, is down and the tree is up. And here it is said, ūrdhva-mūlam, the root is up and the branches and twigs, they're down. Where you have experienced? Eh? Dr. Wolf, where you have experienced this tree?
Dr. Wolf: I know of it, yes.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Wolf: I know of the tree with the fruits up and the leaves down, yes.
Prabhupāda: What is that? What is that?
Dr. Wolf: There is one.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We say the water. We say the reflection of a real tree.
Dr. Wolf: Right, right.
Prabhupāda: So reflection is not reality and therefore it is compared like that. It is not reality.
Rūpānuga: Otherwise it would be satisfied.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Rūpānuga: If it was real we would be satisfied with it.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Devotee (2): So the scientists are engaged in minutely analyzing this mirage, the reflection. They're wasting their time.
Prabhupāda: Yes, now you are right.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have some specific topics that we wanted to have Śrīla Prabhupāda's instruction about these things that we are going to write. So shall I discuss them very briefly?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The title is "The Origin of Life and Matter," and then there will be a sub-title called "Life is a Manifestation of Life Only."
Prabhupāda: Mm?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Life is a Manifestation of Life Only." I mean "Life Comes from Life."
Prabhupāda: Mm.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the sub-title.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then we have some tentative titles of the chapters and the first one is "A Unique Differentiation between a Living Spade(?) and a Non-living Matter."
Prabhupāda: Mm.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This will be tentatively planned to write by me and the second chapter is "The Eternality of the Living." That's also by me. And the third chapter is called "A Look at the Natural Laws Regarding the Origin of Life and Matter." In this there are different sections. First section is quantum mechanical demonstration that will be written by Jad (?) Prabhu, he's a mathematician.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the second part of it...
Prabhupāda: That theory, mathematics, you presented...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, this is...
Prabhupāda: His.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it's his.
Prabhupāda: So it is very nice. You have dedicated to Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The second one is "Order Cannot Arise from Disorder." This will be based on mathematical arguments.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is also Jad Prabhu's (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And third one is "The Statistical Disproof of Darwin's Theory." This is on advanced mathematics. That also Richard Prabhu's duty.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And then on fourth chapter we have a section called "False Theory," namely that life originates from matter. This will be Mādhava Prabhu's...
Prabhupāda: Life originates from matter?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.
Devotee: False theory.
Prabhupāda: About false theory. Very good. (laughter) Very good, it will be very nice. You have all Kṛṣṇa's blessing, do it nicely.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then from fifth chapter it will be evolution versus transmigration.
Prabhupāda: Mm, yes, very good.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And explanation. That will be written by me.
Prabhupāda: Mm.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And then on the sixth chapter there will be a topic called "Molecular Evolution." This will taking the jumbles of the scientific findings, but we use it as a jumbles and turn around to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that will be by me and...
Prabhupāda: That is vṛścika-taṇḍula-nyāya. Is not that? The last chapter, what he means?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, this one?
Prabhupāda: Mm.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is molecular evolution.
Prabhupāda: Ha. Molecular evolution takes place when the light is there.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually when they say molecular evolution, it talks only about molecules. They don't talk about life. Because they don't know what life is.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they talk only about molecules. That everybody knows that molecules are around and it's evolving. But they don't know that there is life. They take...
Prabhupāda: That is their defect. That is their defect, we want to educate them on this point.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And on the seventh chapter there is that Prabhupāda's, that theory of acintya-śakti.
Prabhupāda: Mm.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That will be a collective effort of all the prabhus from the movement.
Prabhupāda: Yes, acintya-śakti is there, within our body.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We want to present it in some sort of very good arguments, foundations are there. It will be our collective effort.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rūpānuga: There was another devotee, Jñāna dāsa, in Germany, who is a graduate from Oxford University, their school. And we have invited him to come to this meeting but he did not respond. Maybe he will come and help in the future.
Prabhupāda: Mm, yes.
Rūpānuga: He has, what is his field?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. His topic was classical, statistical (indistinct) proof. That was allotted to Jñāna dāsa Prabhu, to Germany. (indistinct) Mahārāja sent a telegram, and I also personally wrote a letter saying that he should participate in writing (indistinct). He has a (indistinct) background, he told me (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is nice, attend. Kṛṣṇa will help you. They are wiping out Kṛṣṇa, and your business will be to establish Kṛṣṇa. Hm.
- idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā
- sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ
- avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito
- yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam
- (SB 1.5.22)
You know this verse? Find out Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Satsvarūpa: 1.1?
Prabhupāda: Take the index, otherwise how you will find out?
Rūpānuga: The index.
Prabhupāda: This I want. You are nicely educated. Now by dint of your education, you prove that background is Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Then your education will be perfect. Otherwise you are one of these fools and rascals, that's all. The particular type of education, mathematics, chemistry, physics, what you have learned after working so hard, now you should by your educational-departmental education—you prove that the background is Kṛṣṇa. Then your education is perfect. That is the verse, idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā.
Satsvarūpa:
- idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā
- sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ
- avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito
- yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam
- (SB 1.5.22)
"Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the Vedas, sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminate in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry."
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Satsvarūpa: Yes. "Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection or self-realization..."
Prabhupāda: Nature, viṣṇu-māyā, nature. They are bewildered simply by seeing the nature. Then?
Satsvarūpa: Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, the actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them.
When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord, the whole process becomes absolute. The Personality of Godhead and His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him."
Prabhupāda: Absolute, that is absolute.
Satsvarūpa: "Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord and by so doing have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All "knowledge" not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana, or glorification of the Lord."
Prabhupāda: That is perfection. If you can write this book nicely all together, it will be a great service to Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa will bless you and help you.
Rūpānuga: Will you read the rest of the chapters?
Prabhupāda: Mm? Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then in the eighth chapter there will be...
Prabhupāda: Just make that Dr. Agarwala also interested.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, he can...
Prabhupāda: He is the also scientist, professor of physics.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Defects and Errors in Scientific Research," it will be a title and we will find out all the mistakes that normally found in scientific research. That will be written by Mādhava Prabhu.
Prabhupāda: And add "and how to make it perfect." Find out the defects. Don't be, what is called...?
Rūpānuga: Negative.
Prabhupāda: Negative only.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, we want to bring the, our four defects in our sense perception.
Prabhupāda: Sense perception is defective.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, there are four defects.
Prabhupāda: And if you go beyond the sense perception, that is perfection.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That will be Mādhava Prabhu's duty.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then on the ninth chapter there will be a topic, "The Ultimate Research," (indistinct) research.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That...
Prabhupāda: Ultimate research is to find out the brain.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Absolute. Then there is no more defect. Everything is perfect. That is stated, dhāmnā svena sadā nirasta-kuhakaṁ paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Nirasta-kuhakam, where there is no defect, that is vaikuṇṭha-dhāma. Dhāmnā svena nirasta-kuhakaṁ paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. The absolute truth, we offer our respectful... That is the beginning of Bhāgavatam. Nirasta-kuhakam, where these defects cannot enter. Just like sunshine, in the sun, darkness cannot enter. There is no possibility of darkness going there. Is it possible? So similarly, in Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa sūrya-sama; māyā andhakāra (CC Madhya 22.31), there is no question of defect there.
Rūpānuga: Read that other verse.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In this respect I wanted to phase this on (indistinct) that ultimate research, that brahma-jijñāsā.
Prabhupāda: Brahma-jijñāsā. That is beginning of knowledge, what is the absolute truth?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the research topic.
Prabhupāda: Mm. Now this subject matter should be taken up seriously in the human form of life, that is the suggestion. Atha, atha, ataḥ, now you have got this human form of life, therefore you discuss about the absolute truth. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Yes?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Next one is, next chapter is "Matter Originates from Life." That one of Dāsa (?) Prabhu's. And on the eleventh chapter there will be (indistinct)...
Prabhupāda: Matter is a manifestation of life's energy. We can daily experience. The matter, hair is growing. Cut, again growing. Why? Because there is life. Dead body, hair never grows. Is it not?
Mādhava: Well the scientists will say it's just recombination of matter.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, when there is body dead, no hair grows.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's a nice example.
Prabhupāda: They can use some bombastic word but we layman, we see this is the position. And you do not know how it is being done but the energy is there in you. That is called acintya-śakti, inconceivable energy. That is there. Now you shave every morning and next morning, again millions of hairs. You do not know how it is being happening. But it is happening, and this is called acintya-śakti. From Kṛṣṇa such big, big things are coming out. Even Kṛṣṇa may not know but Kṛṣṇa has got the inconceivable by which it is coming. The same example.
Rūpānuga: People will speculate so many theories as to why the hairs are coming out but then after some time they will see that theory is wrong they'll have to present a new one.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their rascaldom.
Rūpānuga: And until they come to understand that Kṛṣṇa is pushing it, then they will never understand what's actually causing everything to grow.
Dr. Wolf: False ego.
Prabhupāda: That's it. So give something.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The last chapter is entitled "Intellectual Amalgam, Psycho-social Implications." That will be Rūpānuga...
Prabhupāda: What is it?
Rūpānuga: It was their idea. In a book like this there has to be some social conclusion as to the effects of such atheistic theories.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the people are being misguided. That we want to stop. They have got this human form of body, that is an opportunity to understand himself and God and act accordingly. Now they are being misled. It is a social disservice. Cheating. In the name of scientist, they are exploiting this innocent person, taking their money and spoiling it without any good result.
Rūpānuga: My idea is that they are... Actually the scientists are preaching void. They are preaching to the people...
Prabhupāda: But what is the necessity of preaching void? Void is void, that's all.
Rūpānuga: There's nothing to say about that. But because they're saying that, the people think that at the time of death there's nothing, so they want sense gratification. So the scientists are selling them their gadgets. They're selling them cars and things to keep them in sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: We can see when a man is in coma, he cries, he suffers. Before death when a man is in coma sometimes tears come. Now why he says there is nothing? Imperfect knowledge, that's all. Misguiding people.
Rūpānuga: The last chapter's the nicest.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The last chapter is—that Śrīla Prabhupāda suggested—that was "The Original Idea is Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the concluding chapter. That will be a collective effort from the...
Prabhupāda: That's nice, do it. Sincerely pray to Kṛṣṇa and He will give intelligence. Now write nicely. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām, dadāmi buddhi-yogam (BG 10.10), Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence. Yena mām upayānti te, such intelligence which will help him to come back home, back to Me.
Rūpānuga: If we are strong in the principles, then we will have the intelligence to write this book.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa will give the intelligence. What is that?
Satsvarūpa: "To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me."
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Rūpānuga: Buddhi-yoga.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Rūpānuga: It will take us some time.
Prabhupāda: It may take, that is... But do it very nicely. How many pages will it be?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We plan about 500.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. Then we shall immediately publish. What (is) the title you have given?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's called "The Origin of Life and Matter." The origin of everything. When one talks about the life here in the material world, one cannot leave matter. Because the scientists, what they are doing, is the materialists taken it for granted. They do not ask who made this matter. So they've started at... "Oh, matter is already, given by nature." So they'll take the matter and then start life. That is their increasing. So we want to bring it that matter is also from life.
Prabhupāda: Yes.