Prof. Kotovsky: But you know what is interesting to... It is the opinion of some European and old, old Russian scholars, this varṇāśrama system...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky:...is a bit late creation. If you would trace the old sūtras, texts, of Vedic literature, you would find much more simple and egalitarian society. And there is an opinion that this varṇāśrama system was introduced into Indian society on the late stage of Vedic era but not from the beginning, about... If you would analyze scientifically the old texts, you'll find that... (break)...human estimations. (laughs) As many brains, as many estimations...
Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's it.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...about the duration of this period because unfortunately the old classic India we have not so much information.
Prabhupāda: But so far... So far we are concerned, this Bhagavad-gītā... It is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). Now, this Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago, and in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that "This system of Bhagavad-gītā was first spoken by Me to the sun-god." So if you take estimation of that period, it comes forty millions of years. So whether the European scholars can trace out the history of at least for five thousand years together, not to speak of forty millions?
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So we have got evidences that his varṇāśrama system is current at least for the five thousand years, varṇāśrama system. And this varṇāśrama system is mentioned in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa also. Varnāśramācaravata puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān
(CC Madhya 8.58). Varnāśrama acaravata. So that is stated in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa. And so varṇāśrama-dharma is not a, within any historical period calculated in the modern age. It is natural. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam the comparison is given, just like in your body, in my body, there are four divisions, the face, facial, or the brain division, and the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division, similarly, by nature's way these four divisions are existing in the social body. You may take history wherever you begin, but this is existing. A class of men, they are considered to be brain. A class of men, they are considered to be the arms, administrators. And a class of men, they are called productive class. So there is no need of tracing the history. It is naturally existing from the day of creation.
Prof. Kotovsky: According to so many... You have just told that in any society there are four divisions, but the case is not so easy to distinguish. For instance, one can group, one can group, group together, different social classes and professional groups into four divisions in any society. There's no difficulty. Only difficulty, for instance, in socialist society of our country and a socialist society how can you distinguish productive group and workers?
Prabhupāda: Just like you belong to the intelligent class of men.
Prof. Kotovsky: Intelligent, yes, so...
Prabhupāda: So this is a division.
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, intelligent class, for instance, brāhmaṇas, if you can put together also with intelligentsia under the brāhmaṇas...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: Then administrative staff...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Kṣatriya.
Prof. Kotovsky: From top to... From top to collective farm, for instance, is kṣatriyas. But who would be here vaiśya and who śūdra? That is the difficulty because all others will workers, workers, anywhere, factory workers, collective farm workers and so on. So from this point of view...
Prabhupāda: From this point of view...
Prof. Kotovsky: ...there is a great distinction, in my opinion, between socialist society and all societies preceding socialist because in a modern western society you can group all social professions, classes, for instance, practically, very conditionally, you know, at least you can, the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, kṣatriyas... Excuse me... Then this vaiśya, this productive class, is owners...
Prabhupāda: That is...
Prof. Kotovsky: ...of the means of production...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...these factory owners, for instance.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: And the śūdras are workers, menial workers. But here you have no vaiśyas from this point of view because you have administrative staff... In fact, there is administrative staff. You can call them kṣatriyas. And then śūdras, that's workers themselves. But not this intermediate class.
Prabhupāda: That is stated, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age practically all men will be śūdras." That is... That is predicted. But if there are simply śūdras, then the social order will be destroyed. You... Just like in spite of your state of śūdras, a brāhmaṇa is found here. And that is necessity. So if you do not divide the social order in such a way, then there will be chaos. that is the scientific estimation of the Vedas. You may... You may belong for the time being to the śūdra class, but to maintain the social order you have to train some of the śūdras to become brāhmaṇa, some of the śūdras to become kṣatriyas. You cannot depend on the śūdras. Then there will be chaos. Neither you can depend only on brāhmaṇa. Just like to fulfill the necessities of your body there must be a portion called the brain, there must be a portion called the arms, there must be a portion called the stomach, or the belly, and there must be a portion which is called the leg. The leg is also required, the brain is also required, the arm is also required—for cooperation, to fulfill the mission of the whole body. So any, any society you conceive, unless there are these four divisions, there will be chaos. It will be, not be properly, I mean to say, going on, smoothly going on. There will be some disturbance. Brain must be there. So at the present moment there is scarcity of brain. I am not talking of your state or my state. I am taking the world as it is. The brain... Formerly the Indian administration was going on in monarchy. Just like this picture. This picture is a kṣatriya king. Before his death he renounced his, I mean to say, royal order and he came to the forest to hear about self-realization. So if you want to maintain the peace and prosperity of the whole worldly social order, you must create a class of men very intelligent, a class of men very expert in administration, a class of men very expert in production, and a class of men to work. That is required. You cannot avoid it. That is the Vedic conception. Mukha-bāhūru-padebhyaḥ. They say, mukha... Mukha means the face. Bahu means the arm. Uru means this, this, or waist. And pada. So anywhere, either you take this state or that state—doesn't matter—unless there is a smooth, systematic establishment of these four orders of life, the state or the society will not go very smoothly.