C. Hennis: I think that there, in your whole philosophy, there must be a very large number of points of coincidence with the more materialist activities that we engage in. But, well, they're just trying to give people a fair share of the material things of life—proper wages, decent houses, decent opportunities for feeding and for leisure.
Yogeśvara: All that must be there, but without proper instructions simultaneously as to what is the goal of life . . .
C. Hennis: Yes, but I don't think you can properly expect to indoctrinate people. I don't think that . . . at least, you can't expect an international organization to indoctrinate people at the national level. I'm sure that the . . .
Prabhupāda: No, it is not national; it should be international. Just like everyone . . . United Nation, it is meant for international activity. Our only proposition is that as the international organization, United Nation, they should keep a class of men who should act as brain. Then it will be all right. Without brain, simply legs and hands working, no direction, that is not very good.
C. Hennis: I think you'd have to see the secretariat of the United Nations and the United Nations family of organizations, not so much as leaders and bosses and generals, if you like, but rather as the servants of mankind. I don't go . . .
Prabhupāda: We can see, provided we get the chance.
C. Hennis: I don't consider myself to be a leader of mankind. I am very much a servant of mankind with a view to helping people to reduce the differences between them, with a view to helping people to understand one another better. In my own particular branch in which I'm concerned we endeavor to make people understand one another in the manner of an interpreter, if you like, to show that they can . . . to allow people to speak and understand with one another, and to enable them to comprehend each other's problems and understand why there is . . .
Prabhupāda: No. If there is actual brain, there is no problem. Just like if I have got good brain . . . I want to take this thing in my pocket. But if I have got brain, "No, this will be stealing," then I can refrain from it. But if I think that "It is lying here. I can take," what is that?
C. Hennis: I think that your effort of philosophy and teaching must really be directed, in the present state of affairs where countries are organized in the form of national states, must really be directed to the national leaders: the government, the people who exercise temporal and spiritual power in the various sovereign states. And the United Nations is a forum for these sovereign states. The International Labour Organization is a forum for the sovereign states on certain subjects related to labor and the protection of . . .
Prabhupāda: No, whatever subject may be, our point is the same. You just try to understand. If . . . you can organize so many, but if there is lack of brain, the brain is not in order, then any amount of suborganization, organization, will never be successful. That is my point.
C. Hennis: Yes, but there some people are better endowed with brains than others. Some people haven't got brains or not much brains.
Yogeśvara: But at least the direction must have brains. That's the point.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The brain . . . that this is the work of the first-class man, this is the work of the second-class man. Just like any organization, any office, "These are for these men, the class. These are meant for the superintendent. These are meant for . . ." Everywhere, there must be organization, not that everyone should work whimsically. No. There must be a managing board, managing director. He is giving direction. Under his direction, everyone is organized. So the United Nation, such a great . . . this was organized for the total benefit of the human society, but there is no department which is actually can be called the brain organization.
C. Hennis: That's true. That's true.
Prabhupāda: That is my point.
C. Hennis: That's true. They're servants of the membership, and the membership is the international . . . of the states, of the world. And if the governments of the states of the world, if Mr. Giscard d'Estaing, Mr. Nixon and Mr. Wilson and all the others don't have brain, then I'm afraid the United Nations can do nothing to give them brains. There has to be . . . we are only the servants of these people. What we try and do is let them get together and help them understand one another.
Prabhupāda: Let them understand. At least, let them understand what they should do, what they should not do. This much . . .
C. Hennis: This we do try to do, to the extent that it is possible for the secretariat to shape and evolve a philosophy. We do try to do it. But of course. we can't adopt a completely radical approach. We do what we can in the manner of a good servant, and the manner of a good steward to try and help the leaders along the right path and right direction. Your Divine Grace, I thank you very much indeed for this audience. It's been very kind of you.
Prabhupāda: I may be a madman. (laughs) I have talked so many things, and you say all right.
C. Hennis: It's been very interesting indeed, and I thank you very much indeed for giving me the opportunity.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) But I am very much, I mean, strict on this point, that if the society does not know what is sinful and what is pious, it is all useless.
C. Hennis: Well, let's hope that there'll be a . . .
Prabhupāda: It can be a decoration. That we describe, "The decoration of the dead body." Anyone who has no brain, lost all brain, it is a dead body. So a dead body you can decorate to your full satisfaction, but what is the use of decorating a dead body?
C. Hennis: That's true. Well, thank you very much again. It's very kind of you.
Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda. Please sit down for a moment.
C. Hennis: I have to go, because I have a lot to . . .
Yogeśvara: If you can wait just two minutes. One tradition is that we always offer our guests prasādam, foodstuffs that we prepared.
C. Hennis: Thank you very much. But I have to go very shortly. I have to . . .
Yogeśvara: Well perhaps I should give him downstairs.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Give him.
C. Hennis: May I? May I? Thank you very much. That's very kind of you. Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. (Mr. Hennis leaves)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's true what you say, Prabhupāda. They come and they put forward their idea, and if you don't like it, well, "Oh!" but if you like it, "Oh, very good man." They have their own ideas. They don't take advantage.
Prabhupāda: What, his nonsense idea. From the result we see nobody is happy. What is this idea? They have big, big scientists, big, big politicians, big, big . . . but where is the people are happy? They are simply fighting. Now, recently in Rome, Italy, the Communists and the Fascists fought, and six innocent person died. So where is the benefit of this United Nation? They do not have really brain. Manufacturing something, concocting something, that's all. Where is the brain? They have no discrimination between sinful activities and pious activities.
Yogeśvara: He admitted it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Any sane man will admit it. Cow is giving milk—mother. And bull is producing food—he is father. And they are being killed. Is that human society? How they can be happy? There is no possibility. Regularly they are maintaining slaughterhouse, especially for the cows and bulls. Why don't you slaughter the dogs and hogs and eat, if you are meat-eater? There are many meat-eaters who eat dogs. Dog is useless. You can eat. Hog is also useless. They are eating also dog and hog, everything, whatever they . . .
Yogeśvara: His point was that they can . . . he was thinking that man has the capacity for resolving his own problems. Simply we have to come together and organize.
Prabhupāda: That is United Organization. Why do they not think all these things?
Yogeśvara: There is no direction.
Prabhupāda: No direction. There is no brain. Therefore for the last . . . why last? Twenty years. Before that, in our younger days, the League of Nation, that was formulated in 1918, '19. So they are trying to unite the whole nation under different names from '18, apart from other year. So for the more than fifty-five, sixty years, they are all good brains of the nation, what they have done? That means they have no brain. The problems are increasing. Instead of decreasing the problems, they are increasing.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You used the example that in the United States they have so much . . .
Prabhupāda: Now there was fight between two opposite nations. Now, within the nation there are so many opposite parties, they are fighting. So instead of nationwide, it has become homely affairs—my home, your home, fighting, that's all, although we belong to the same nation. So what is the improvement? Now in Italy the Fascist party and the Communist party, they fought, and so many people died. So this will increase, increasing partyism. So where is the brain?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then the first point is to educate people who they are serving, they are working for.
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, there must be a class of men, ideal men, brain; people will follow them. My request is therefore that you should become ideal men. If we fight . . . now there is fighting amongst ourself. That is very disappointment to me. The same politics, intrigues. The nature is so strong that brain becomes, what is called? Fag brain? Brain becomes deranged.