Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People are thinking that the punishment is something worse than this, that "This is very nice. We can live here and be happy, and the punishment is in hell."
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Here we live happily."
Prabhupāda: That.... No, no. That is the nature of the living being, that he is happy by nature because he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). So ānanda is nature, but he is finding, trying to find out nature in sinful life. Therefore he is being punished. That he does not know.
Guru dāsa: So that's his ignorance.
Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. His nature is to become happy. He is happy, happy. Just like our natural position is we are healthy. Nature has made this body. But we create such situation that we become ill, sick. And at that time we see, "Oh, I am..." What is that? "I am infected. I have been contaminated." Go to the doctor, injection. But the natural life is no disease.
Guru dāsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But you create a situation; therefore become diseased.
Guru dāsa: Otherwise it wouldn't be called "diseased," because it would be normal to be sick. But disease means...
Prabhupāda: Normal life means no sickness.
Guru dāsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And as soon as there is sickness, that means punishment. So if you want to be punished, then violate the hygienic laws. You can see that there is hospital and medical treatment and medicine—for whom?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sick people.
Prabhupāda: No, for the human society. Not for the birds, beasts. But they follow nature's law. But this rascal violates nature's law and suffers.
Yadubara: What about for the devotees, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Sometimes they are very sick, have so many...
Prabhupāda: Devotees.... To become devotee is not so cheap thing. You don't think that because you have got a tilaka you have become devotee. Why do you think like that?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, eiṭa eka kalira chelā, nāke tilaka, galaya mālā:(?) "Here is another follower of Kali. He has got tilaka and mālā." Sahaja bhajana kacen māmu, saṅga laiyā pārera wala (?): "He is worshiping, bhajana, taking another's wife." Sahaja bhajana kacen māmu, saṅga laiyā pārera wala, ei ṭa eka kalira chelā: "Here is a servant of Kali. Simply he has changed his dress with tilaka and mālā." Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says. If you take tilaka and mālā and do all nonsense things, then you are not a devotee. You are Kali-chelā. To become a devotee is not so easy thing.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Devotee means perfect.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Certainly. Devotee means sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He is above these material laws. That is devotee. Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. He is in the Brahman stage. That is devotee. If you take.... That means sahajiyā. "Because I have got a tilaka and mālā, I have become devotee." This kind of cheating will not do.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And in this modern age, this cheating is very prominent...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Modern or old, anyone who is a conditioned soul, he has got cheating propensity, four defects. One of them is the cheating propensity.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. But the mental stage in this age is very strong, mental. They think mentally they have found a solution.
Prabhupāda: That they can do.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: But they...
Prabhupāda: Within mind you can think, "I have become emperor of the world." That you can do. Who can check you? But that is not the actual fact.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is the characteristic.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is mental concoction. Within mind you can think, "I have become the proprietor of the banks, all the banks." Madman that is. He's a madman.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They have so many philosophies, but it's all mental.
Prabhupāda: All mental. We say, therefore, don't say "philosophy." We say "mental speculation."
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: Philosophy means tattva-darśinaḥ. That is described, tattva-darśinaḥ. One has seen the truth, he is philosopher. And who is hovering in the mental concoction platform, he's a rascal. "I think." This is.... Their all European philosophy is...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: "I believe."
Prabhupāda: "I believe," "In my opinion." He's a rascal, and he is giving his opinion.