Nara-nārāyaṇa: As they elect the congressmen generally to solve different social problems which are existing in the society, so in our campaigning process, should we try to show them practical application of the philosophy for solving all their social problems, or should we preach philosophically?
Prabhupāda: No. We should preach that "Stop these things. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating." Practically you teach them. This is the real social problem.
Umāpati: Should we also try to introduce legislation immediately to close the slaughterhouses?
Prabhupāda: No. If you want good men, good leader, you must be free from all these, I mean, sinful activities. Otherwise there is no question of good leader, or good man. There is no question. First principle is this. Just like a patient, he must abide by the prescription, that "You must do this, you must do not this." Then there is cure. And simply if he goes on in his own way, then there is no value of consulting a physician. So the first program is that "If you want really good leader and if you want to become yourself also good, then you must give up these four sinful activities. Otherwise, all your scheme will be failure."
Umāpati: So we would tell the people that if we were elected we would try to close the slaughterhouses.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is different thing. Why you should say, revolting something. You say that "Don't eat meat." That is slaughterhouse closing. If you say that "Close your slaughterhouse," they will think that these are, what is called?
Umāpati: Radical.
Prabhupāda: Ideal, radicalist, idealist. But if you can induce them... That is also another process...
Umāpati: Through influence.
Prabhupāda: They agree. Then automatically, slaughterhouse will be closed. If there is no customer for meat, then slaughterhouse will be closed. Just like Gandhi started this movement, non-cooperation, "Don't cooperate with the British government." That was his... Because the Britishers were ruling India with the cooperation of the Indians. Otherwise, how they could rule? The soldiers were Indian, the police were Indian, the secretariat, office, clerks, they were Indians—all Indians. But they manufactured in such a way that they were cooperating. So Gandhi took the route that "You non-cooperate; then the Britishers will automatically go away." That was his movement. Similarly, if we educate public that "You must find out a leader who is free from these sinful activities. Then you will be happy. And you also give up. Otherwise, how you will be able to select such a leader?" This should be our real propaganda. Otherwise they will think that "They're against our real joyful life. So these men are useless." You have to explain that "If these things, sinful activities, you prolong, then you cannot become happy."
Umāpati: People will ask us, if we get into office. What are we going to do? What is the first thing we are going to do? What can we do? Since there are many, many other legislators and many other senators, they say, "You are only one man. How you can possibly change the country if we elect you?"
Prabhupāda: That I know. That I know, that I am... Therefore we are, internally, we are not after the office; we are after educating people. Yes. Even if you go to office, you cannot do. Even if give manifesto, that you will stop slaughterhouse, and you are elected a senator, you cannot stop. Because they are majority there. If you say they will laugh, "What this nonsense saying?" So even if you give any manifesto, you will not be able to carry out it, because their majority is there. Simply you can general way educate them. Or you can give what is there. There is no harm.
Umāpati: But there are many people in this country that would like to see prayer put back in schools. Even though they don't understand prayer, at least they like the idea. They are sentimentally attached to it. It was one idea that if we at least say that we would try to get prayer put back in schools...
Prabhupāda: But prayer, without these things, background, there is no value of prayer.
Umāpati: Yet there are a lot of people who would vote for us on sentiment at least, that at least we are for prayer in schools.
Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Prayer, to advise people to offer prayer is not bad, but unless one is purified, that will not stay. But prayer, they are still going to church, but still, the churches are being closed.
Umāpati: Still, that could be influenced in the right direction afterward.
Prabhupāda: Well, influenced, to a certain extent. But as soon as you say, "prayer to God," they will laugh, "What is this God and prayer?"
Umāpati: Well, some people won't. Some people still have at least a sentimental attachment to God, and they would like to see at least a semblance of prayer in school.
Prabhupāda: Do something practical. "Prayer means to chant the holy name of the Lord. If you have no holy name of the Lord, we are giving you. So you have no expenditure, neither you have any loss. So why don't you try this? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This will be reasonable. Is it not? And if they actually chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then automatically the prayer and everything will be done.
Umāpati: But they still would not be allowed to do it in school. There's a law against that, officially, in school.
Prabhupāda: That you can introduce.
Umāpati: We should try to fight that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now in the schools, now the senator have fixed up one date for prayer?
Prajāpati: Yes, one day.
Prabhupāda: Some 30th or 31st April. So if the government wants prayer, why they have prohibited in the schools? This is contradiction. Point out. This law was introduced due to inexperience. Now they are coming to experience that it has not helped us. Therefore they are introducing prayer. So why don't you take it?
Umāpati: We should ride with that. We should try to get in on that.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise what is the use of introducing prayer again? They have experienced that this without prayer, things have failed. That's a fact. You take this point.
Umāpati: Yes. The schools are falling apart. Delinquency and there's lots of criminal activity amongst the children in school. And even the teachers are walking out of the classrooms because of the violence in the schools and the lack of communication with their students.
Prabhupāda: No, in India, in examination hall there is regularly police. Regularly. I have seen it. So what is the value of this education? There is regular police. Now there is no ordinary guard.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In fact some people get killed. During the examination hall, people get killed.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometimes people want to copy, and those people who are...
Prabhupāda: Guarding.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They catch them, and sometimes they get killed outside. Still in Calcutta.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There has been case. Yes.
Umāpati: In Calcutta that way too?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh yes. I was in the examination hall, and in fact, people are very afraid to be caught there. But now I heard that the government of India is going to change the system of examination.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That they have introduced a grade system just like here in the United States, and then there will be open books, so that they will be not be afraid of copying things. Open book examination.
Prabhupāda: Oh, common sense. (pause) (break) ...man's aeroplane. Just see. Immediately he goes up. And man's aeroplane, oh, you have to takes position, you have to go so many miles like this. Then you can... It is imitation. The aeroplane has also wings, but his wings is collapsed. But that wing you have to keep. Therefore you require so much space.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like, Śrīla Prabhupāda, a vulture. When the vulture wants to take off, he will run just like an aeroplane for a certain distance. They cannot just get up immediately. Vulture.
Prabhupāda: So you scientists, you are like vultures. (laughter) You have imitated vultures.
Umāpati: The symbol of the United States is an eagle, which is a bird of prey.
Prabhupāda: No, eagle... Our symbol is also Garuḍa, big eagle. Yes. Big eagle, Garuḍa. And you know Garuḍa is not vegetarian. You know that?
Prajāpati: Snakes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is not vegetarian. So if one becomes a sincere devotee like Garuḍa, you can allow him to become non-vegetarian. If he cannot give it up. (break)