Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually matter becomes more complicated when it is in association with life. That is actually what we want to say.
Sadāpūta: We were speaking not of the spirit soul, we're saying designed by God. That's the kind of life we were referring to.
Hari-śauri: Just like the material energy in its unmanifested state, when it's pradhāna, there's no living entity present. But when the living entity is put into the material energy by God, then the whole complex system of workings in the material world come into being.
Rūpānuga: What we're trying to show is that such complex activity cannot go on without the presence of life. And with life there, spirit soul, movements are going to go in this material world. That's our point. Isn't that the point?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. One thing also, in the spiritual world, it is full of variegatedness.
Prabhupāda: That is spiritual variety.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Spiritual variety.
Prabhupāda: There is no difference.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That doesn't mean that it is complex, Śrīla Prabhupāda, yes?
Prabhupāda: No, there is no complexity.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: One point, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that matter as it is, it has not even a specific form or pattern as compared with matter associated with life. When matter is associated with life it has specific groups of forms meant for a definite purpose and function. Now this is lacking when matter is left as it is. For example...
Prabhupāda: Yes, matter is utilized for the purpose of spirit soul. Otherwise matter has no independent existence. The whole thing is matter, but it is formed according to the desire of the spirit.
Hari-śauri: So if matter is inferior to the spirit soul, then isn't it correct to say that the spirit soul is more complex or sophisticated than matter? If matter is inferior?
Prabhupāda: Spirit soul is living. Naturally he has got desires. That is not complexity. That is a symptom of life.
Rūpānuga: Matter has no desire.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So matter seems, we say, more complex, but still is inferior.
Prabhupāda: It is made complex to serve some purpose.
Rūpānuga: It keeps the living entity forgetful of Kṛṣṇa. It makes māyā for the living entity; he forgets Kṛṣṇa with all the complexities.
Prabhupāda: Physically, everything is being done by heat and light. So fire is heat and light. The fire is not complex, heat and light but with heat and light everything is going on. You have physical subject matter of study, heat and light?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Because everything is being conducted by heat and light.
Hari-śauri: So the living entity's desire has become very complex due to his association with material nature?
Prabhupāda: He does not desire. He desires, and the matter helps. In the material world.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That desire is simple?
Prabhupāda: Desire is simple, that is his... Otherwise, without desire, how he is living? You make minus desire, then how it is living? That is only symptom of his living.
Rūpānuga: You have said on your original record that the living entity is trying to enjoy material nature but is becoming more and more entangled in her complexities.
Prabhupāda: Becoming entangled in the machine. Because he has forgotten his spiritual identity. He thinks "With this machine I can help myself." That is going on.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In a sense, it is also true that in the material world, especially material scientists, they make things more complicated.
Prabhupāda: That's all.