Harikeśa: Can a material calculation prove a spiritual fact?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: Can a material calculation prove...
Prabhupāda: No. Materialists cannot understand spiritual subject matter. It is not for them.
Harikeśa: So there is a project in Los Angeles where some psychologists are examining all the devotees.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: Some psychologists are there. They are doing a laboratory test on all the devotees.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he may study in his own way, but he will not profit.
Harikeśa: He will not profit. So this, the findings, even if they are published will not profit?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: The findings? They are going to...
Prabhupāda: So what is their findings? The devotees are working on the soul platform but he does not know what is soul.
Siddha-svarūpa: What are these experiments?
Harikeśa: They're really far out. Actually, they're crazy...
Prabhupāda: The psychology is on the mental platform.
Harikeśa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So what he will understand about spiritual platform?
Harikeśa: Actually they can't. They put these little things around fingers with wires and heads and they find that the readings are...
Prabhupāda: And our devotees also agreed to sit down like that?
Harikeśa: Yes. I thought it was ridiculous.
Śrutakīrti: They're probably getting some money for doing it.
Harikeśa: Every week they go, and every week another man comes, and they give all of these tests, psychological tests. We would say yes or no to different questions, material questions.
Prabhupāda: So why do they agree to?
Harikeśa: They're being, more or less, forced to.
Prabhupāda: Forced?
Harikeśa: Yes.
Śrutakīrti: They're probably being paid.
Upendra: This is referring to that, in that transcendental meditation they have a chart that after transcendentally meditating, they are calm. But the result is that after chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the devotees are more calm, and they can remain calm more than this result of the transcendental meditation.
Harikeśa: But actually, that's not true because some...
Prabhupāda: That transcendental meditation, that is a bogus humbug. So they are making experiment. So in that way it is good for us, that they're better than transcendental meditation.
Harikeśa: But sometimes the devotees become very excited, you see, when we chant and the test goes up.
Upendra: No, but this is... Dharmādhyakṣa was... He did it. The same result, they have to act the same way. They have to chant their japa nicely. And then the transcendental meditationist will meditate his way. But the results are coming out better in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dharmādhyakṣa, at least, and Guru dāsa said so I'm not sure. It hasn't been working yet.
Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that beyond the senses, the mind is there. Beyond the mind, the intelligence is there. Beyond the intelligence, the soul is there. So they are studying the mind. They are not even on the intelligence platform, and what to speak of spiritual platform? Mano-rathena asato dhavato, bahiḥ. These rascals, those who are on the mental plane, they will remain materialists. That's all. They will not know, understand anything spiritual.
Harikeśa: So even if someone were to read the results of such a test, it would not convince them.
Prabhupāda: What...? What you...?
Siddha-svarūpa: They're testing after a material thing. Try to understand it. They're testing the mental plane and they're thinking that that's the spiritual plane.
Prabhupāda: Their position is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. These rascals, avajānanti, I mean to say, cares a fig for Kṛṣṇa, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is also a very big man, that's all." Just the Arya Samaji says in India, that "We don't accept Him as God, but He is a very big man, a very big politician, like that." So that is described in the Bhagavad..., avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). The paraṁ bhāvam, what is the actual significance, that is, they do not know. What is the actual significance of the soul and soul platform, spiritual..., that they do not know. They are studying from the mental platform. So they have to go beyond mental platform, avāṅ mānasa-gocara, beyond bodily mental platform. Then they will understand.
Harikeśa: So we shouldn't bother with such tests?
Prabhupāda: No.
Siddha-svarūpa: By submitting to them we're actually... We're endorsing that they are dealing with the spiritual.
Prabhupāda: When they come first of all, you have to inform them that "We are working on the platform of the soul. What do you know about the soul?"
Harikeśa: This psychologist has become a devotee.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. He might have failed in his mental working in the mental plane. Then he has come. That is another thing.
Harikeśa: But still he wants to try and prove Kṛṣṇa consciousness through this psychological testing.
Prabhupāda: No, what he will prove, psychological...? Psychological means mental plane. How he will understand soul from the mental platform? That is not possible.
Bali-mardana: What they want to know is the effect of the, the effect on the mind of the soul.
Prabhupāda: Effect will be good. As soon as one is on the platform of the soul, the intelligence, mind, body, everything will be good.
Bali-mardana: That is what they are studying.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another thing. Just like if you get millions of dollars, ten dollars is already there. You haven't got to endeavor for ten dollars. Similarly, if one who is on the platform of soul... Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you understand the platform of soul, then you understand the other platforms: the intellectual platform, mental platform, bodily platform. And platform of knowledge, pratyakṣa, parakṣa, aparakṣa, adhokṣaja, aprakṛta. So aprakṛta is this platform of the soul. Kṛṣṇa's activities, that is aprakṛta, completely far beyond these material ideas, material platform. Material platform, pratyakṣa. Just like you want to see the arrangement. That is pratyakṣa. Then aparakṣa, accepting the authority's version. Pratyakṣa, parakṣa. Then aparakṣa, then adhokṣaja, beyond your mental speculation. Then aprakṛta, spiritual. Spiritual platform is not understood by machine, material machine. Then what is the spiritual platform? Kṛṣṇa is understood not by machine. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti: (BG 18.55) "Through devotion only." So devotion is not machine. That is spiritual activity.
Harikeśa: So you cannot understand the consciousness of a devotee by testing his body.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: You cannot understand the consciousness of a devotee by testing his body or his mind.
Prabhupāda: No, consciousness means... That is mental platform. Consciousness is also in different platform, bodily consciousness, mental consciousness, intellectual consciousness, then spiritual consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is spiritual consciousness.
Harikeśa: So there is no way they can understand. No way.
Prabhupāda: How they will understand? First of all let them explain what does he mean by soul? That they cannot explain. They take mind as the ultimate, that's all.