Hayagrīva: Now he analyzes theism, which is the personal aspect, and pantheism, the impersonal aspect, and he finds both defective in themselves, and so what is his position? This is his position: "If the question is asked whether the speculative conception of God or Deity which has been advanced here as part of the empirical treatment of space/time, and has appeared to be verified by religious experience belongs to theism or pantheism, the answer must be that it is not strictly referable to either of them. Taken by itself..."
Prabhupāda: That is his mistake. As you have explained that the sky is also with reference to God... The sky is explained as the heart of God, and the water is explained as the semina of God, the moon is explained as the mind of God, the sun is explained as the eyes of God, the land is explained as the foot of God. So everything is with reference to God. So for a person who understands God, there is nothing existing without God. So how God can be separate? That is the fact. So pantheism or any "ism" you take, it has reference with God. What he says?
Hayagrīva: This, he goes on to say, he says it doesn't belong, strictly belong, strictly belong to theism or pantheism. "The answer must be it is not strictly referable to either taken by itself, that in different respects it belongs to both, and that if a choice must be made, it is theistic," that is personal, "for God for us is..."
Prabhupāda: That, that means when you come to the personal God you see that everything is with reference to God. There is nothing independent. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaro. That is explained, that this viśvarūpa universe is Bhagavān, but it appears that it is different from Bhagavān to the less intelligent. So then there cannot exist anything without Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but those who have no sufficient knowledge, they think that "This is separate from God and God is separate from you."
Hayagrīva: He says, "God is both body and soul..."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: "...and His soul is His Deity. Since God's body is the whole of space/time, God, in respect of His body, is all-inclusive, and all finites are included in Him, and in their continuous connection as pieces of space/time, and linked by spacial-temporal continuity they are fragments of God's body, though their individuality is not lost in it."
Prabhupāda: This is right. This is right. This experience he has got very good work.
Hayagrīva: "God is an individual being just as man or any other finite is..."
Prabhupāda: And now he is coming to that.
Hayagrīva: "...only that He is infinite."
Prabhupāda: He is, He is person, but He is not a person like us. But sometimes, due to our poor fund of knowledge... That is explained, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). "These rascal, because I am here talking with Arjuna just like a human being, they are thinking that I am also a human being." No. He is infinite, Arjuna is finite. That is explained in the Fourth Chapter also, that "Arjuna, you are doubtful how I can remember that I spoke this philosophy to sun-god some millions of years ago." Naturally a finite man cannot remember how one can remember. "That is the difference between you and Me, that I know everything; you forget. So although you are living being eternal, I am also living being eternal, that is the difference between you and Me."
Hayagrīva: He says, "God's body is not spaceless nor timeless, for it is space/time itself."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything emanates from Him, so there is nothing separate from God. God includes everything. That is the conception of God. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Everything has emanated from Him.
Hayagrīva: This is the final point. He says, "Concerning the existence of the evil..."
Prabhupāda: This description is very nice.
Hayagrīva: The description on the...?
Prabhupāda: The last description.
Hayagrīva: That last description. That the living entities are fragments of God's body...
Prabhupāda: Everything...
Hayagrīva: ...but their individuality is not lost.
Prabhupāda: Everything that you will see, they are all part and parcel of God. The other day I was saying that the wheel, the whole wheel is resting on the axle. So axle is there, the wheel is moving, so everything is part and parcel of God. Therefore the Māyāvādī's philosophy that everything is one, yes, but they do not accept the variety. The wheel is one, that's all right, but still the parts, sometimes it is called spokes, sometimes it is called the rim, sometimes it is called the hub, sometimes it is rolling, sometimes it is stopped, but everything the wheel, nothing but wheel.
Hayagrīva: He goes through a lot of, a lot of speculation to arrive at the final point. Concerning the existence of evil and suffering in the world, he writes, "God is not responsible for the miseries endured in working out his providence, but rather...
Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. The miserable condition is created by us, and we suffer.
Hayagrīva: Yes, he says, "rather, we are responsible for our acts."
Prabhupāda: We suffer. Just like the silkworm, he creates a cocoon and becomes entrapped and dies. He is creating this fiber, silk fiber, and becomes entrapped. That is his creation.
Hayagrīva: A co...
Prabhupāda: What is called? Cocoon?
Hayagrīva: Yes, a cocoon.
Prabhupāda: He becomes entrapped. So similarly, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Aprāpya māṁ nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). Because he is acting independently without caring for God's instruction, then he is entangled; he suffers. That is the position. God has not created this suffering; he has created his suffering.
Hayagrīva: That's the end of Alexander. (end)