Prabhupāda: Everything comes from God, but He's self-sufficient. That is God. That is the searching out God, that you search . . . You . . . Wherefrom you came? From your father. Then your father comes from his father, from his father. Go on, go on. When you reach one person—He does not come from any father; He is self-sufficient—then He's God. That is the definition of . . . If God also comes like you, from a father, then how He is God? He's like you. That is the definition of.
Satsvarūpa: But they say that's not logically proved.
Prabhupāda: That is logical . . . means you have no brain to understand. That's all. That is the distinction between God and ourself. We are caused, but He is cause of all causes. That is God. Otherwise, how you'll distinguish between you and God? You are caused, but He is not caused. He's causeless. If He becomes caused, then He becomes like you. Then how He becomes God? That is the distinction between God and ourself. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in the beginning it is said, svarāt.
Satsvarūpa: Independent.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1): "This Absolute Truth is that from which . . . who is the origin of everything, but He's svarāṭ." This is the first line of Bhāgavata. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1).
Satsvarūpa: They don't like it, because God doesn't come under their jurisdiction then.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Satsvarūpa: They want . . . they want God to be under their jurisdiction. So . . .
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. You shall be under the jurisdiction of God. God is not under your jurisdiction. Then how He is God?
Rāmeśvara: They can't understand how it is that matter . . . they accept that matter always existed. They can't understand our point . . .
Prabhupāda: Matter existed . . .?
Rāmeśvara: Always. That in the beg . . . that eternally there is gas in the atmosphere, in the universe.
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the gas came?
Rāmeśvara: Well, they say . . . they believe that it always existed.
Prabhupāda: Always existing.
Rāmeśvara: Yes, that's their idea.
Satsvarūpa: Just like we say God is svarāṭ, they say that the matter is svarāṭ.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in . . . not svarāṭ. We never find a gas is svarāṭ, matter is svarāṭ. They . . . just this body. Has this body come out itself? Because the soul is there, the body has developed. Therefore the cause of this body is the soul. The body is not independent. And the soul goes away. Then body's no more independent. It cannot move. It becomes just like dust. "Dust thou art; dust thou be-est." (break) . . . like this body is moving now, but it is not independent. It is dependent on the soul. The soul goes away; it does not move. So how it is independent? And everyone knows that because the soul takes shelter within the womb of the mother, the body develops. If the child comes out dead, it does not develop. Therefore matter is dependent on the soul, living being.
Rāmeśvara: Their argument is that matter is always in motion, is always moving.
Prabhupāda: Where is moving? Is this moving?
Rāmeśvara: Well they say the atoms, the molecules, are always in motion.
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all prove that this is moving. Then all . . . say all this nonsense. First of all, why it is not moving? This, this piece of earth, why it is not moving?
Viṣṇujana: They say it's moving very slowly. You can't see it moving.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?
Viṣṇujana: It's moving so slow, you can't see it.
Prabhupāda: Then you become blind. Then you can see.
Prajāpati: But they'll say the whole world is moving, the whole cosmic manifestation is moving.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another thing. But then how that is moving, we have to settle. But matter, as itself, does not move.
Rāmeśvara: 'Cause they say that within the, within the earth . . .
Prabhupāda: That is within. You have got very good sight within. But I am a layman. I want to see that it is moving. (laughter) You have got some imaginary eyes. You can see.
Madhudviṣa: They say that's advancement.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Madhudviṣa: Advancement of science.
Prabhupāda: Yes, to become blind is advancement, certainly. When this is . . . who will say it is moving, unless he's a fool? Nonsense. (laughter) Moving, that's all right. Everyone . . . the whole world is moving. That is another thing. But as it is, why . . . where it is moving?
Rāmeśvara: They're talking about the atomic structure, that the atoms are moving.
Prabhupāda: And therefore it is moving.
Rāmeśvara: Within, the atoms, there is movement.
Prabhupāda: Then here, today, this morning, you'll see it is lying there. Tomorrow you'll come, you'll see it is lying there. Where it is moving? What does it mean by moving?
Rāmeśvara: Well, they say that when atoms . . .
Prabhupāda: They say! You say what it is. Don't say "They say." You use your intelligence. If the foolish man says something, shall I have to accept it? You use your own intelligence. "They say." If they are authority, then we have got authority. If you do not accept my authority, why shall I accept your authority? Come to argument. "They say." Why we will accept "They say"? They . . . Why? Are they authority?
Rāmeśvara: No.
Prabhupāda: Then? What is the use of "They say"? You say. When you'll say "They say," I'll say "They say," (laughter) my authorities. My authorities. If you defy my authority, why shall I accept your authority? Then come to plain logic.
Madhudviṣa: Well, you look at the earth, and you see it. It is stationary.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Madhudviṣa: Just like we look at the building over there. From a distance, it is stationary. But if we go inside, we can see there is so much movement.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Madhudviṣa: So similarly, you may walk by this earth every day and see it is stationary, but if you analyze it underneath a microscope, you will see that there is so much movement going on within.
Prabhupāda: But that is due to air. That is due to air. Just like we can see so many atoms are moving in the hole from the wall, but that is due to air. So this is also moving. The whole thing is moving by air.
Viṣṇujana: But not of itself.
Prabhupāda: Not automatically.
Viṣṇujana: Not of itself.
Prabhupāda: Not automatically. You cannot say automatically. No, air is moving. Just like the. . . in the air, the cloud is moving. The cloud is not moving. The air, moving, and the cloud moving.
Trivikrama: Anyway, the basic proposition is that they, they don't have . . . they don't want to accept God so they don't have to be accountable for their activities.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Trivikrama: So that they don't have to be accountable for their activities.
Prabhupāda: Certainly. And they are being accountable. If they become so dull-headed, then God's power will make him a tree: "Stand here. Stand up here for three thousand years. That's all. You are so dull-headed that you have no sense, so become a tree so that even if you are cut, you cannot protest. You have no sense, senses." That is the punishment. "If you don't eat prasādam, then eat stool." This is the arrangement. So they are being punished. But they are so dull-headed, they cannot understand.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With their science, they've been able to build so many buildings and roads and bridges and so many things which they consider wonderful.
Prabhupāda: And what you'll do with the buildings? You'll be kicked out. Your building will remain there. Your spoiling labor will remain there, but you will be kicked out. You cannot live there. Who is managing these affairs? "So you have constructed a building? All right, I kick you out. Get out!" Then what is the purpose of building? Huh? If you know that "I am constructing this high building, and tomorrow somebody will kick me out," then what is the use? Have you made it insured that you'll not be kicked out?
Viṣṇujana: No.
Prabhupāda: Then it is useless waste of time.
Madhudviṣa: You can enjoy it while you are here, though.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is called foolishness that, "I am going to be kicked out tomorrow, and let me enjoy tonight." That's all. That is foolishness.
Madhudviṣa: This is their only recourse, 'cause they don't believe in anything after this life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They . . . that . . . "Don't believe" means . . . don't take knowledge means foolishness. Yes. Just like you are walking. You don't believe that you are going to the temple, but simply walking. Is that very intelligent? We are going. We are going to some place. We know that. That is intelligent. And if I ask you, "Why you are walking?" "That I do not know." Is that very intelligent man?
Satsvarūpa: Like animal.
Prabhupāda: Animal, that's all. Animal also knows that, "I'll have to go there." Without any aim, without any purpose, if they are working, they are fool number one. Mūḍhāḥ.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes the argument is put forward that in places where's there is not sufficient food and shelter and things like this, these problems should be solved first before the problem of spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why don't you solve? There are so many land. Come here and grow food. Grow fruit. That is . . . that is the desire of Kṛṣṇa. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Produce food and eat in sufficiently, be strong, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. Why you are producing bolts and nuts, tire and tubes? Eat. Rascal. They do not know, that first of all you must eat. No, everyone is engaged in industry. Why? Kṛṣṇa does not say that "Take to industry." Kṛṣṇa says, "Produce foodstuff." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. If you produce foodstuff, then both your animal, yourself will be happy, becoming strong. Why do they manufacture other things? All these people are engaged in manufacturing, and nobody is manu . . . er, growing food. Therefore the price of food grain is rising. Suppose I am growing food, and you are not growing, so you have to purchase from me. I'll ask, "You have to pay this price." And you have to pay. And if you grow your own food, there is no such question. The simple economic problem, solution, this rascal cannot take. If you grow your own food, I grow my own, then who is going to purchase? The price will be reduced automatically. If you have no customer, then you have to reduce your price. But they do not understand even the simple thing, that "God has given us enough land to produce food grain, and we must eat." They do not understand this. And still, they are scientist, philosopher, politician. Just see. That is the difficulty. All rascals, fools, they are leading the whole human society.