Gaṇeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Śrī Īśopaniṣad it is said that one must learn the process of nescience alongside with the process of self-realization.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Gaṇeśa: In the Īśopaniṣad, pravṛtti with nivṛtti. How is that?
Prabhupāda: What is that pravṛtti and nivṛtti?
Amogha: He says that in the Īśopaniṣad it says that you should learn the process of self-realization side by side with the process of nescience.
Prabhupāda: Nescience, yes. That is pravṛtti and nivṛtti. Pravṛtti means sense enjoyment. And nivṛtti means self-negation. So when we say that "You shall not have illicit sex," and their inclination is illicit sex, so therefore it is revolutionary. They are materialistic persons. They want sex enjoyment to the best capacity-homosex, this sex, that sex, naked dance, all sexually inclined, pravṛtti. And we say, "Stop this," nivṛtti. They do not like it because āsura. Pravṛtti jagat. They do not know this is essential. They do not know it. This is essential. Tapasā brahmacaryena (SB 6.1.13). Tapasya means brahmacarya. The so-called swamis, they are coming for this so-called yoga practice and..., but they are themself victim of sex. This is going on. Actually, it is a bluff—they have become swami and teaching some yoga system—because they do not know that one has to stop this first of all. Brahmacaryena. So this bluffing is going on all over the world, and we are speaking just against them. Murkhayopadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye. If you give instruction to the rascals, he will simply be angry. He will not take advantage of it. This is our position. All the so-called professors, philosophers, they are all in the pravṛtti-mārga. Therefore they are bringing somebody, "Our interpretation is like this." Pravṛtti-mārga. Because if they can find out some support from the śāstra, then they think, "We are secure." This is going on. Pravṛttim ca nivṛttim janā na vidur āsurāḥ. The whole world is full of asuras, descendant of Hiraṇyakaśipu, and it is very difficult. But if we give them chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, gradually they will understand. (pause) Our difficulty: the so-called swamis, priests, popes, they are also in the pravṛtti-mārga. All these, priests, and they have illicit sex. Pravṛtti-mārga. So they are passing, "Yes, you can have homosex with man." They are getting man-to-man marriage. You know? They are performing the marriage ceremony between man to man in the open church. What class of men they are? And they are priest. Just see. Such degraded persons, drinking... They have got hospital for curing their drinking disease. Five thousand patients in a hospital in America, all drunkards, and they are priest. Just see. Simply by dressing long, what is called, overcoat?
Śrutakīrti: Cloak.
Amogha: Habit?
Prabhupāda: Cloak and cross, they have become. In India also, simply having a thread, a brāhmaṇa. Two-paisa thread. That's all.
Paramahaṁsa: Even the coolies at the train station.
Prabhupāda: And by simply one daṇḍa, one is sannyāsī. This is all over the world. Mussulman, having a long beard, he is Mussulman. Mussuleḥ iman.(?) Musseleḥ means complete, and iman means honest. That is the meaning of Mussulman. Completely honest, completely devoted. Mussuleḥ iman. (long pause) We are not saying just "No sex." We don't say that. We simply say, "No illicit sex," and they do not like it. We don't say "No sex," but simply by saying, "No illicit sex," they don't like. Why? There is a Bengali song, "cakṣe yadi lage bhala kena dadimali" (?) "If I want to see something beautiful, why shall I not see?" That is pravṛtti. "I want to do it. I like to do it. Why should you say, 'No'?" This is the position. "I like to do it. I must do it." This is called pravṛtti (long pause) "I like to interpret Bhagavad-gītā in this way. Why should you say no?" This is going on. (break) The school students, college students, "I like to copy. Why shall I repress(?) ?" This is education. Here also they copy?
Amogha: You mean cheating?
Prabhupāda: No, no, copying in examination?
Amogha: Oh, yes. Well, what they do is someone sneaks the exam answers out before, and they sell the answers to the questions before the test.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Here it is more advanced.
Amogha: Yes. Very scientific. Sometimes they get caught, it's in the newspapers.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Amogha: Sometimes they are caught by the authorities and it comes in the newspapers, and there's a big scandal because all the students are buying the answers to the questions.
Prabhupāda: Just see. The main point is how to get some money. So the teachers are also dishonest.
Paramahaṁsa: There's a saying that everyone and everything has its price.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Paramahaṁsa: It means that if you pay enough money, you can get anything, or you can get somebody to do anything.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The justice, they are taking bribe, giving judgment.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes, yes. Policemen. Also the politicians in America, sometimes they win their elections by giving bribes.
Prabhupāda: To the voters.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly.
Amogha: Everyone is cheating, but when they find out that the leaders are cheating, everyone becomes upset.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayadharma: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you have said that it's impossible to become rich unless one is a cheater. And yet we have our business, our Spiritual Sky business. So how is it possible to carry on business and not become a cheater?
Prabhupāda: You can cheat. (laughter) You can cheat. For Kṛṣṇa's sake we can cheat also. But don't be caught. Then it will be scandalous.
Gaṇeśa: Thank you. Kṛṣṇa is the biggest cheat.
Prabhupāda: Yes, He is big in everything, but you should not imitate, because you are not as big as Kṛṣṇa. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). He is very powerful. Before His power, everything becomes vāṇīshed. He remains powerful. But you cannot do that. "Kṛṣṇa is biggest cheater; therefore I shall become a cheater." That is not good policy. Then you will be finished. Just like the example is given that Lord Śiva drank the ocean of poison, and if you drink a drop, you will die. You cannot imitate the most powerful. That is not possible.
Jayadharma: You told Madhudviṣa Swami once in Sydney a few years ago that actually you're the biggest cheater because you're stealing away all our māyā.
Prabhupāda: What is that? I am...
Paramahaṁsa: He says that once you told Madhudviṣa Swami that you are the best cheater because you are taking away all our māyā and making us devotees.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. That kind of cheating is very good. (pause) Christ also spoke about nivṛtti-mārga. "Thou shall not kill." Because they were practiced to kill, and still they are practiced to killing. The first nivṛtti, "Thou shall not kill." The same thing, "Thou shall not covet."