Dr. Sallaz: And this we are doing everything in our power to prepare and to do what we can to prepare this spiritual revolution. It is the thing we have to do today to save the world. Without spiritual revolution, there is no possibility to save the world. It is going down definitely. For this earth, yes.
Prabhupāda: So we have started this movement, spiritual revolution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So why don't you cooperate with us?
Dr. Sallaz: Oh, you see we are doing in our field everything we can and we are preparing to bring this special revolution. We have to bring to light all the old knowledges, the real spiritual knowledge. And this is what we are preparing. And it will take one or two years more until everything is prepared, can be shown.
Prabhupāda: You have studied Bhagavad-gītā?
Dr. Sallaz: Some. Some of the members know it perfectly. I do not.
Prabhupāda: So you read that. Energy, two energies, how they are explained. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ.
Dr. Sallaz: You see some of members are... (French)
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: This is in the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā, text numbers four and five.
- bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ
- khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
- ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me
- bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā
- (BG 7.4)
"Translation: Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego-altogether these eight comprise My separated material energies."
Prabhupāda: This is material energy. Bhūmir āpo 'nalaḥ, explain that.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That the material energies—earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—these energies, they come from Kṛṣṇa. In other words, we are speaking of energy. There is an origin to the energy. We always have an experience. Just like there is sunshine here, but the sun, origin, is millions of miles away. So in the same way these energies also have origin. It's not that they are just existing without some source. And Kṛṣṇa is describing here in the Seventh Chapter—this is called Knowledge of the Absolute—how these energies are related to Him. Now, in the material world it's described that there are two energies. This is called bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā, inferior energy. This will be described in the next verse. Apareyam itas tv anyāṁ prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām (BG 7.5). Now, this is describing the superior energy or the parām, the parāṁ prakṛti. And this is described, "Besides this inferior nature," which is this earth, air, water, fire, ether, "O Mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine which are all the living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe." So this earth, air, water, fire and ether... Just like your body, it is being sustained by the soul. And as soon as the soul leaves the body, then, of course, the earth, air, water, fire and ether, it is no longer sustained in this fashion. It merges into the various elements or energies. And in this way, we can understand that the material world is made up of two energies, as my spiritual master said: the inferior energy, or this aparā-prakṛti, earth, air, water, fire, ether, etc., and the superior energy, or the living force. So the point is that the life force does not come from a combination of earth, air, water, fire, ether. It is separate. That is a superior energy. And on this point we agree. Now, we have to find out what is the source of both the superior and inferior material energies, or what is God.
Prabhupāda: And that is spiritual energy. That is spiritual energy. When we find out the source of these two energies, that the beginning of spiritual life, or spiritual understanding.
Dr. Sallaz: And, Your Holiness, you know, some of our members know this perfectly, Bhagavad-gītā and all the holy scriptures, ancient holy scriptures, and all the others too, and have studied them for years, trying to look for truth. I am not in this stage and I'm...
Prabhupāda: But truth is there, explained. Truth is there, Kṛṣṇa. From Him, the energies are coming. He is the Absolute Truth. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Kṛṣṇa is the Absolute Truth, satyam. Then Bhāgavata explains, paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. So the Supreme Truth is there within our understanding. But people do not know it. Therefore spiritual revolution means the people should understand what is the Supreme Truth, and then mold their character and activities according to that relationship. Then that is success of human life.
Dr. Sallaz: And I can say to you, we are making a very..., preparing, some of our members, a very important work, which is explanation from the medical point of view of all the genetic code which is in science something absolutely terrific, plenty, thousands of books and so on.
Yogeśvara: What is your explanation of the genetic code?
Dr. Sallaz: (French)
Yogeśvara: He says... Very interesting. He says one of the conclusions that they have arrived at is that despite all of your research work, despite all of your scientific studies, if you don't have a simple spirit of inquiry, you won't be able to understand the codes of life. He says the genetic codes, actually, it is a great secret, a mystery, which they are trying to prepare for general understanding, and that secret is that you must be of a simple, humble spirit in order to understand the mysteries of life.
Dr. Sallaz: You must try to look for truth, and when you look for truth, you see very extraordinary and simple solution explaining everything for the scientific men. But the time is not right to give it to them. A little later, yes.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: You spoke of a destruction. You said that without a spiritual revolution, there would be some type of destruction. What exactly do you think of as destruction?
Dr. Sallaz: Oh, the world will be dead.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: No. In the Bhagavad-gītā we have information that the living force, or the soul, is neither born and neither it dies.
Dr. Sallaz: Ah, yes. I meant this world. Matter is the earth. Be careful. I don't mean life in general...
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Now, this is the point that my spiritual master is bringing out, that the material energy is inferior, and in order to have a spiritual revolution you have to understand the superior energy which is eternal, without birth and without death. So, of course, there is no question of destruction for the soul.
Dr. Sallaz: Destruction in our occidental language and practically, which is not yours.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Destruction in simple terms, just as we know something has a beginning and something has an end. That is destruction. So in Vedic terms that which has a beginning and has an end is called material, and that which has no beginning and no end, but is existing nonetheless, that is called spiritual or superior energy.
Dr. Sallaz: Of course. This cannot be destroyed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That cannot be destroyed.
Dr. Sallaz: That cannot be destroyed. It can disappear from the living people, Christian or other of this world, but not at all.
Prabhupāda: Then what do you mean by spiritual revolution?
Dr. Sallaz: It is to see, to look, for the real truth, the simple truth. The very simple truth. And to abandon our way of life aiming only for money, power and material things, to go back to simple living and especially to living with up.
Prabhupāda: Living with?
Yogeśvara: Living with higher thoughts.
Prabhupāda: Then higher thoughts... Is there any definition of the higher thoughts? (French)
Yogeśvara: He says humanly it is impossible to understand it.
Dr. Sallaz: We can feel it. We can believe it, but we cannot explain it.
Prabhupāda: No, if there is explanation by a person who is not a human being, say, God.
Dr. Sallaz: Yes, we say God.
Prabhupāda: Then why should you not take it? (French)
Dr. Sallaz: We'll accept. (French)
Yogeśvara: He said if it were presented he would accept it and try to promote it.
Prabhupāda: Just find out this verse, Eighth Chapter, paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). Find out the index.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ: "Yet there is another nature which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is."
Dr. Sallaz: I am quite agree. And we do all in our center agree with it.
Prabhupāda: So then, first of all, we have to understand what is our constitutional position. We are superior-we, living entities—we are superior energy, eternal. And after annihilation of this body, I, the spirit soul, superior energy, am not annihilated. I accept another body, material body. And there are varieties of body, 8,400,000. (Yogeśvara translates)
Dr. Sallaz: And on this point of view, when some people are going very badly, wrong with us, of course, for us it is like air, but we say, "Poor people, what about their karma?" That is how we look it, "What about their karma?" It is a pity for them that they do so wrong, because they will have to pay for it. That is all.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That "pay for it" means, he has got this chance of human body. Now he will have to accept lower grade animal body. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says that at least on these points we are in agreement.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the real inconvenience is that I am eternal. I am now put into such condition that I have to change my body, and there is risk of getting degraded body. Therefore my problem is that—I am put into this condition, repetition of change of body—to get out of it—that is spiritual life—and transfer myself there. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyaḥ (BG 8.20). Just like we are in this material nature. If we transfer to that spiritual nature, then there is no more this problem, getting this body, again annihilate, again get another body, again annihilate. This problem is solved. And that is spiritual life. (French)
Yogeśvara: So he says they completely accept that there is a superior energy which can be attained.
Prabhupāda: So therefore human activities should be dovetailed for going back to home, back to Godhead. That is spiritual movement. (French)
Yogeśvara: This is also their idea. This is their point.
Prabhupāda: We are giving this idea in practical form. Why not cooperate with us? (French)
Yogeśvara: He says first of all, so far as cooperation is concerned, he is just one man. He is the president, although he is the president, still, he is only one man, and he can only speak in terms of cooperating with the spiritual movement among the more enlightened members of his group.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is required, because if the enlightened men of the society does something, others will follow. It is not that the general mass of people has to be educated. They will be automatically educated. They will follow. If the enlightened man is living in such a way that he is going to be transferred to the spiritual world, then others will follow. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ (BG 3.21). At least, there must be a class of men, ideal men, that they are preparing themselves for transferring to the spiritual world. Then people will see that "Here is the ideal man," and they will try to follow. (French) But if people see that "He is also like us. He is also drinking, he is also eating meat, and he is also having illicit sex," then where is the ideal man? Everyone is implicated with these things, sinful life.