Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, where is that education in the university to prepare the student for the next life?
Mother: Oh, but he must fit it in.
Jesuit Priest: All the Catholic Universities all over the world are doing it. That's our main purpose, is to teach the young man and the young girl the success in this world, but above all,...
Prabhupāda: Then the next question...
Jesuit Priest: ...is the success in the next, which means union with God for eternity. That's top priority. And following Christ's words, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God," then all the other things are of very minor importance. It's closeness to God and return to be one with the Beatific Vision in heaven. That's the top priority, that's our aim in education, and that's what Michael was taught when he was at Sunnyhurst. And that he does well and gets a degree, yes, very good thing. He could be a doctor or an architect or a leader in commerce, what have you, of which all of which are essential for the well-being of the world. This time last year I was dead. I was picked up as unconscious in the corridor, and the doctors said that I had experienced... I was as near death as makes no difference. Well, if it hadn't been for the skill of the man that...
Prabhupāda: So...
Jesuit Priest: ...looked after me, I wouldn't be here this afternoon.
Prabhupāda: So next life, how it will be ascertained? What kind of body I am going to next life?
Jesuit Priest: I don't think it matters very much. I couldn't care less what's happening after I'm dead. All I know, there's not annihilation. I'm going to be joined with almighty God.
Prabhupāda: No, it cannot be blind.
Mother: We're going to almighty God. That's all.
Jesuit Priest: Not that I want another life.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Mother: We're going to almighty God when we die. We don't have to worry.
Jesuit Priest: That's in his hands.
Prabhupāda: So what is the qualification?
Mother: We know. We...
Prabhupāda: Everybody is going to God?
Mother: Yes. Everybody who believes in God. Yes. And leads a good life, does their best in this world, and that is truth for me.
Prabhupāda: Then the question comes: What is the good life?
Jesuit Priest: Obeying the commandments of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if the commandment is "Thou shalt not kill," if somebody kills, so that is good life?
Jesuit Priest: No, no, no. Father, you're being a bit unfair. It isn't... Interpretation, "Thou shalt not kill," thou shalt not unjustly take away life. If a man walks in this afternoon through those bushes with a revolver, I have every right... I'm not saying I'm going to do it, but I have every right to defend myself against that unjust aggressor. And if I kill him...
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can, you can protect yourself...
Jesuit Priest: ...that is justified.
Mother: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...from the aggressor, but when you kill innocent animal, what is the reason?
Jesuit Priest: Oh, well then... Yes. Well, again, that's got to be interpreted. We wouldn't be able to... What foo... How would we live on food? How do we live if we don't eat?
Prabhupāda: How we are living?
Jesuit Priest: Pardon?
Prabhupāda: How we are living?
Jesuit Priest: Well, I don't know...
Prabhupāda: We don't kill animals.
Jesuit Priest: I don't know what your food is, but...
Mother: No, but you have a vegetarian diet...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mother: ...which is...
Jesuit Priest: Well, all right.
Mother: A lot of people have that.
Prabhupāda: But that is not killing.
Jesuit Priest: No, but... By, fa..., er, look at it this way. You've just said a few minutes ago there are eight million different kinds of life. Would you agree that the potato, the cabbage...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jesuit Priest: ...and what have you also has a life?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jesuit Priest: Because there's vegetative life, there's sensitive life, there's rational life...
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Jesuit Priest: ...there's supernatural life, and there's a life of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes
Jesuit Priest: All right. And therefore—I'm not being facetious—when you boil those potatoes, you are taking away the life of that potato.
Prabhupāda: So what is your philosophy? That you can take any life?
Jesuit Priest: But you said, "Thou shall not kill."
Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. "Thou shall not kill." That's all right.
Jesuit Priest: But you kill the potato.
Prabhupāda: Now, suppose there is potato and there is your child. So would you like to kill your child in preference of potato?
Mother: No, no.
Jesuit Priest: You've not answered my question.
Prabhupāda: Why this discrimination?
Jesuit Priest: Why you've not answered my question?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am answering you, that you are to kill, but you have to discriminate what kind of killing you shall do.
Jesuit Priest: Well, I've just said that. I gave the example of the chap who comes to you with a revolver. I can maybe protect myself. You said... You're implying...
Prabhupāda: No, no. When somebody comes with a revolver, you defend. That is another thing. But if somebody's innocent, why you should kill?
Jesuit Priest: And I say I shouldn't. God said, "Thou shalt not kill."
Prabhupāda: Then why you are killing animals?
Jesuit Priest: Well, you're doing it when you eat your potatoes.
Prabhupāda: No, the potato is not animal.
Jesuit Priest: It's a vegetable, life.
Prabhupāda: No.
Jesuit Priest: It starts with a little tiny seed. That's life.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Jesuit Priest: It grows.
Prabhupāda: Potato is not animal. It is fruit.
Jesuit Priest: Is that tree alive?
Prabhupāda: It is a fruit.
Jesuit Priest: Is that tree alive?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jesuit Priest: Has it got life?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jesuit Priest: Are you doing anything wrong when you cut it down...?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jesuit Priest: ...to provide...?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jesuit Priest: ...to provide...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes.
Jesuit Priest: You are doing something wrong?
Prabhupāda: We don't cut down trees unnecessarily. Unnecessarily.
Jesuit Priest: No, but, but, uh, but, uh, but, uh... I don't kill...
Prabhupāda: No. But the... I have asked this question to so many people, that "Why you are killing although it is prohibited, 'Thou shall not kill.'?" They cannot give me any satisfactory answer.
Jesuit Priest: Well, I think I've given you one. I'm just thinking in a way...
Prabhupāda: Innocent animal killing and taking a potato from the tree, you are making equalized. It is not very...
Jesuit Priest: Oh, no, I'm not (indistinct) and saying. All I'm saying is if you're logical and accept different...
Prabhupāda: This is logical. Now...
Jesuit Priest: ...kinds of life.
Prabhupāda: I have to live. We agree that we have to live by eating another living entity. Jivo jīvasya jīvanam. But if I eat this grass, taken some grass, and if I eat some animal, do you think they are equal?
Jesuit Priest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Equal? Then why don't you kill your child, own child?
Jesuit Priest: Because there's a, I mean, a... That's, that's... Logical. I just tried to show you the difference between...
Prabhupāda: Now, we don't agree that...
Jesuit Priest: ...vegetative life, sensitive life and rational life.
Prabhupāda: ... that innocent... That... That's all right.
Revatīnandana: Rational? Animals have got rationality.
Jesuit Priest: No they haven't. Omnia animalia intelectu carent.(?) (Latin)
Revatīnandana: Even your...
Jesuit Priest: This is bringing out exactly...
Revatīnandana: Even your own psychologists will display to you rational life in the monkeys.
Jesuit Priest: No, no.
Revatīnandana: And so many other animals. Rats.
Jesuit Priest: No.
Revatīnandana: They make rational decisions.
Jesuit Priest: No they don't.
Revatīnandana: Oh?
Jesuit Priest: Well, I mean it's been accepted. ...
Revatīnandana: Your own psychologists will display that to you.
Jesuit Priest: Well, all I can say is it's been accepted in the teaching of not many western philosophers...
Revatīnandana: Not eastern philosophers.
Jesuit Priest: But all eastern philosophers... Omnia animalia intellectu carent.(?) (Latin) And now, as Mrs. Christie just said, if you've done a bit of study...
Prabhupāda: So because, because some animal is not intelligent, you are right to kill?
Jesuit Priest: No, no, no. We're not talking about killing. He, his theme now, that there's no difference between us and the dog.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes.
Revatīnandana: You're more intelligent than a dog—to some degree.
Prabhupāda: No, if...
Jesuit Priest: So in other words, if we are, all of us here...
Prabhupāda: Even the animal is not intelligent, you cannot kill. Because your child is also not intelligent, so that does not mean you can kill your child.
Jesuit Priest: Oh, but nobody, I'd, nobody'd, nobody'd, master, nobody'd for one second would think about killing a child.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not a very good reasoning, that because the animal is not intelligent, they may be killed. That is not very good reason.
Jesuit Priest: Oh, no, that isn't the reason. That isn't the reason why we kill it. We kill the animal because we need it for a means of living.
Prabhupāda: No...
Jesuit Priest: As food.
Prabhupāda: You need it... Just like if you can get nice fruits, grains, milk, why do you need animal? You have to eat. You have to eat and live. Not to kill. Similarly, that if you can get nice foodstuff from food grains, from fruits, from flowers, from vegetables, from milk, why you should kill the animals?
Mother: Well, a lot of people now are going over to health foods.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Mother: This is thought of by a lot of people.
Prabhupāda: Well, lot of people may do anything.
Mother: I agree with you. Yes...
Prabhupāda: But a reasonable man, a religious man, he should have discrimination, that "If I get my foodstuff from here, why shall I kill a big animal?"
Mother: Well, it's not... I always think it's not for me to condemn people, whatever they do. All I ask for in life is... I'm not condemning you, but uh...
Prabhupāda: No, we are thinking in that way. It is all right that we have to eat some living entity, but a difference... If we can get... Besides that, when you get the grains, it is not actually killing. When you get the fruits, I am getting these fruits from the tree. It is not killing. The fruits are there. I take it. It falls down. I take it. The grains also. It is not killing.
Mother: Well, I think... No, well, I don't think we're really worried about whether we kill or you...
Prabhupāda: So similarly, if I take milk from the cows, that is also cow's blood, but I don't kill it. So if I can live in such nice way, without killing, I get the fruits and flowers and the milk and the grains, why should I kill the animals?
Mother: There're a tremendous number of people being vegetarians today.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mother: You're not the only people. I mean, a lot of people just have, yes, they do...
Prabhupāda: That is nice. That is nice, very nice. They should be vegetarian.
Mother: ...but we don't condemn people who do.
Prabhupāda: That will make them less sinful. And that will qualify them to go back to home, back to Godhead. If they remain sinful, they cannot go.
Jesuit Priest: Would you say that because we—and I talk about myself—because I have meat and bacon and so on, I am a, does that make me sinful? If I didn't eat those, I would be less sinful?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is our philosophy.
Jesuit Priest: So if I give up eating meat and bacon and sausages and things, I'll suddenly become a different person.
Prabhupāda: Then you become pure. You become pure.
Revatīnandana: Yes. Yes.
Jesuit Priest: That's very interesting.
Revatīnandana: I just met a gentleman who told me exactly that. Just a few min... He's a businessman here in London. He's about forty years old. And three months ago, he decided, because he learned, heard this from us, he decided to become a vegetarian. And a few weeks later, I talked to him. He said, "You know, it's amazing the difference in my consciousness." He says, "I have become a completely different man." Yeah, he told me that.
Prabhupāda: Well, yes...
Revatīnandana: And he's a very intelligent man. He's in the Mensa Society.
Prabhupāda: In the Vedic literature it is said the animal killers cannot understand God.
Mother: Well, this is very good, sir, that you find this, and I say, this is not my argument... Yes. Hmmm.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Not practical also. I have seen the animal killers. They do not understand what is God. That is a fact. Neither they have got brain to understand it.
Mother: But you don't need brain if you're not going to study or to do anything further. If you just sit and sleep like...
Prabhupāda: No, we are studying. Because we are preaching, we are studying that. The animal eaters, they cannot have any conception of God. The brain is so dull.
Mother: What about your children? Where do they? Do they go to school?
Prabhupāda: Why not.
Mother: Are they edu...? Do they go to schools, your children?
Prabhupāda: They have now grown up. My grandsons are going to school.
Mother: Well, I didn't mean yours in particular. I'm talking now of all of you. I'm not talking of you particularly. I'm talking of all of you. All your children, the married devotees...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, our children, we have got our own school. All these boys, they have got their children. They are gṛhasthas, householders. So we have got our nice school at Dallas, very big school.
Mother: But you have got a school, a Kṛṣṇa school?
Prabhupāda: Yes, oh, yes.
Mother: And now, how...? Do they go through college?
Prabhupāda: They are now little children. But we don't wish to send them to college. We have got sufficient books.
Mother: So you'll cut off their education like that?
Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense education?
Revatīnandana: No, no.
Mother: Now, do you think that's not cruel to them?
Prabhupāda: We don't care for this...
Revatīnandana: We cut off your education, and we take education from the Vedas and from our spiritual master. We learn how to read, how to write, how to handle numbers sufficiently, and whatever we need practically for our work. And we learn the science of God from our spiritual master. And we find that sufficient for us. We haven't got to spend extra time and many extra years irrelevant subjects that are never going to relate to our practical life or to our God conscious life.