Śyāmasundara: If you'll remember, some of the philosophers we have discussed, they believe that unless the world is perceived, it does not exist. But Bertrand Russell thought that the world was real in itself. Even though we do not perceive it, it still exists.
Prabhupāda: That, that (indistinct). World exists, whether we perceive or not perceive. It doesn't matter. So many things we do not perceive. Just like the child, he sees the electric fan is moving, but he does not perceive where is electricity power, or the powerhouse. So because the child does not perceive the powerhouse and electricity, it does not mean that there is no electricity or no powerhouse. It is the childish fault that one must think like that, that without electricity, without powerhouse, the fan is moving. That is childish. The so-called perception or no perception is simply childish.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the existence of the real world beyond sense data cannot be proved.
Prabhupāda: Such a nonsense cannot perceive. Therefore we have to go to a person who knows. I may be fool, rascal, so I cannot perceive, but that does not mean things are there as the fools and rascals perceive. Our process is, therefore, Vedic process-tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to be really learned, wise, one must go to a guru. Gurum eva abhigacchet. Must. This abhigacchet word means "must." There is no alternative. He cannot know things as they are without approaching guru. That is our Vedic system. And guru means one who knows the Vedas, and one who is firmly fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is guru.
Śyāmasundara: But how does someone prove that something exists beyond his..., beyond our senses?
Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Just like child does not know. He simply sees the fan is running-superficially. But he does not know that there is electricity power, and there is a powerhouse. So that is lack of knowledge. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). After many, many births, one comes to the real knowledge, and that is vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). Then he knows that Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is the original (indistinct). It is a question of knowing, and knowing through the direct current via media-guru. Otherwise he remains in darkness. Therefore guru-namastaya. Ajñāna timirāndasya. Everyone is blind by the darkness of ignorance. Jñānāñjana śalākayā. And the guru's business is to lighten ignorance, the śalāka. What is called, śalāka?
Devotee: Lamp.
Śyāmasundara: Torch.
Prabhupāda: Torch. Yes. Torchlight. The torchlight. Guru gives the torchlight, jñānāñjana śalākayā. What is that torchlight? By awakening his dormant knowledge. That is torch. Then he can see what is world.
Śyāmasundara: So the proof that one accepts for something which is beyond our sense is not necessarily scientific?
Prabhupāda: Not at all. What to speak of scientific, it is completely ignorant. There is no question of science. It is simply darkness.
Śyāmasundara: No. I mean the proof..., if one accepts the proof of the guru's authority...
Prabhupāda: That is the proof. He gives there. Guru—the next line says who is guru: śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭam. He has heard the truth from the paramparā system, and the result of his hearing-he's firmly convinced and fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So when one can finally see that one is fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and he answers all questions on the authority of śāstra, he's guru. This is the proof of it(?). Just like we, whenever we say something, we immediately support it by quoting from Bhagavad-gītā, Bhāgavata, Vedas. This is called knowledge. And the result of knowledge-fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, firm. Nobody can deviate. That is guru. Two sides: one side is that he knows everything from authoritative source. And he, as the result, is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. These two things are the symptoms of guru.