Prabhupāda: Defiance, there is no question. If you are actually engaged in the service of Kṛṣṇa, where is the question of defiance?
Śyāmasundara: Well, he is talking about someone who may know what is the law of God, but he defies it. Someone who wants to sinfully act. Either due to weakness or defiance we sin, but he says that the self-integrated personality is willing to be himself. He surrenders to what his real position is. This is called self-realization.
Prabhupāda: No. This self-realization practically—to be self means to remain as part and parcel, to serve.
Śyāmasundara: He says that full self equals full will. That when we are fully ourself, then we are fully willed.
Prabhupāda: What you mean? That is Māyāvādī. Full self, what is that? Then what is the question of part and parcel?
Śyāmasundara: That means when we make decisions that they are...
Prabhupāda: You cannot make decision. If you are part and parcel, then you have to take decisions from the whole. You cannot make. The finger does not make decision. I say "Finger, stand up like this, please."
Śyāmasundara: So just like when there are decisions to be made, because a self-realized soul automatically...
Prabhupāda: The decision is that I shall serve Kṛṣṇa as soon as ordered. But the order comes from the superior. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is ordered by Kṛṣṇa to fight, so he has to fight. That is all. Arjuna's decision was wrong, but when he takes decision from Kṛṣṇa, that is right. So we have to take decision from Kṛṣṇa's representative. That is right. We cannot make our own decisions. That is wrong.
Śyāmasundara: So full will means to follow...
Prabhupāda: Full will means full will to surrender, full will to follow the orders of the superior. That is full will.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So how does he ever come to the point of religion if he wants men to make their own decisions? How can we make our own decisions according to him?
Prabhupāda: There is no own decision. If we want to become self, that means I am part and parcel, so I have no personal decision. I have to take decisions from the higher authority.
Śyāmasundara: We were talking about the decision; you were talking about the other levels. The religious stage, you said, is obedience and commitment to God.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But to get to that stage, you have to go through the second stage. So how do you get to the second stage by making your own decisions without God's..., without God's representative? In other words, how can you come to the platform of the third stage from the second stage?
Śyāmasundara: It is gradual development. You gradually develop.
Prabhupāda: Why gradual development? Here Kṛṣṇa says, the Supreme Self, "Surrender unto Me. I give you all protection." Why gradual? Immediate.
Śyāmasundara: He is saying we are motivated by despair to come to this stage.
Prabhupāda: But there is no question. Christ says, or Kṛṣṇa says that "You surrender unto Me, I'll save you," no more disappointment.
Devotee: I haven't heard in this philosophy yet where he has mentioned either guru or śāstra. How... (break)
Prabhupāda: ... dealing factually, scientifically.
Śyāmasundara: You said (indistinct) just the opposite. You said, "Keep me talking. That is my life."
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a fact. Sa vai puṁsām... Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane (SB 9.4.18). That is Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, the great saintly king. About him it is described, sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ. He engaged completely, twenty-four hours, his mind unto the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. And vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane, and he engaged his talking simply on Vaikuṇṭha, on the subject matter of Vaikuṇṭha, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Prahlāda Mahārāja also speaks like that: tad vijñā, tad vijñā sa (indistinct). Glorifying, he is very (indistinct). So they have no conception of God, and whatever you believe, (indistinct). So God is imperson, He is not a person, so where is the (indistinct)? So they come to the (indistinct), scientist, another politician, another this, (indistinct) and they want to become a hero eventually, "I am a great philanthropist," "I am a great nationalist," "I am greatest philosopher." That... And when they finish their talks, then become (indistinct). No more talks—finished. (Hindi) Prahlāda Mahārāja says that (indistinct). He says that śoce tato muni vimukha-cetasa(?): "I am simply thinking of these rascals who are without God consciousness." Tato muni (indistinct): "They are averse to God. I am thinking of them." Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa, māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). These rascals, simply for māyā-sukha, temporary happiness, they are busy, always running here and there for constructing hundred and fifty-stories' house, and bring your money for that. Very busy, very busy. Just like Mr. Birla, he's always busy, (he) cannot see (you). They do not know that "What happiness I am creating?" (indistinct) Just at the end of my life (indistinct). As soon as I close my eyes and I go away from this body, all these things that I have created will be finished. I cannot remember, you cannot remember what was in your past life. But you are eternal, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So suppose I was a king in my last life, I was another Birla, or Birla's servant, (indistinct). Suppose I was Jawaharlal Nehru, or Gandhi. So what benefit I am deriving now? Who is respecting me as Gandhi or Jawaharlal Nehru? (indistinct) Even I do not know that my photograph or statue is being worshiped. I do not know that. Such foolish persons. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says, māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato. Simply for illusory happiness you have created gigantic show of civilization and advancement of material life. Māyā-sukhāya. Everything will (indistinct) as soon as there is death." That's all. Simply wait for death and then finished. That's all. Finished. He cannot say that "Let me enjoy." Actually, one of my friends in Allahabad, he was dying at the age of fifty-four. I was also fifty-four. So he was begging the doctor, "Doctor, can you not give me four years' life? I have got some unfinished work. Let me finish." (laughter) Such unfinished work. Suppose if you (indistinct), what will he gain? But he does not know where he is going next life. But he is begging the doctor, "Please save me. I have got some plan; it is not yet finished." So all these rogues and fools, they are doing like that: "I have got some plan; it is not yet finished. Please allow me to live." Suppose you are waiting for another four or five years or ten, what achievement you are going to do? That they do not know. Vimūḍhān. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja has classified them as fools and rascals and rogues. That's all.