David Lawrence: Can't be done. Another question that raised itself, you'll see in the paper in fact, was the little mention in one of the books that I was reading, not from Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, just to get a bit of background, on Lord Caitanya, and it seems to have been...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is already there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, described.
David Lawrence: Yes. If you like, the later manifestation isn't it. Of the avatāra.
Prabhupāda: We are simply trying to present them, that's all. It is not we have manufactured something, no. There is no question of concoction, manufacturing.
David Lawrence: No. Just passing on what has already been there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is already there. When we speak of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is already there. When we speak of Vṛndāvana, Vṛndāvana is already there. It is not that we have manufactured some picture, imagination, no. They take it like that. The rascals take it like that, that it is a kind of imagination of the poet. The Māyāvādī philosophers also take like that. But that's not the fact. It is actually presentation of the spiritual facts and as the spiritual activities are quite different from material activities, they misunderstand. They misunderstand.
David Lawrence: Yes. It's one of the interesting features was, of this little bit about Lord Caitanya was in fact that he claimed Him to be pathological.
Prabhupāda: Just like...
David Lawrence: You know the manifestations obviously of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and kīrtana and so on. Seems to be obviously you regard as a scurrilous or wrong-headed or a dull-headed field of people who regard His manifestations of God consciousness as verging on madness, or temporary madness. What would you say about that. Obviously you would reject it.
Prabhupāda: When a man is himself mad, he'll find others mad.
David Lawrence: Yes, true. (laughter) Yes, he sees a reflection of himself.
Prabhupāda: If one is himself deaf, he'll think others are deaf. So ātmavat manyate jagat, everyone thinks the whole world is like him. Therefore they think Kṛṣṇa also like him. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). That is condemned in the Bhagavad-gītā that "These rascals, because I come in human form to benefit them, they take Me as human being." That is mentioned. But these things are taken like that by the mūḍhas. Mūḍhas means rascals, asses.
David Lawrence: Really they're just talking, as you say, from within their own experience.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
David Lawrence: They're being, lacking in imagination really because they can't imagine what happens when God possesses a man.
Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa is lifting the Govardhana Hill, they are thinking this is imagination. But if actually Kṛṣṇa is God, is it very difficult for Him to lift a mountain? He's floating so many heavy planets in the air, so, weightlessness. If Kṛṣṇa can make weightless so many heavy planets, is it very difficult for Him to make the Govardhana Hill weightless?
David Lawrence: Not at all.
Prabhupāda: So these things have to be understood.
David Lawrence: So once again you'd say that this was a...
Prabhupāda: Therefore, in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is clearly said bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). Simply through devotional service one can understand Me. Others will misunderstand. (break)
David Lawrence: Yes, one doesn't become concerned with these what really are the superficials of an inner state. You accept and appreciate the validity of bhakti.
Prabhupāda: What is this?
Śyāmasundara: It's a sentry post for watchguards.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
David Lawrence: Once again, many thanks for your tremendous cooperation and as I say I hope it won't put you to too much work. Obviously some of these things have already been met. To a certain extent we've done some of the work already, haven't we?
Prabhupāda: Some of our students may read. If it is presented, if it is misrepresented then it is useless to publish.
David Lawrence: I don't want that to happen, you see. This is why I'm so anxious that at every stage it be seen.
Prabhupāda: So you read it and find out.
David Lawrence: Will you?
Śyāmasundara: Sure, sure, sure.
David Lawrence: That will be... I've said to the publishers, as far as I'm concerned, they've given me a date at the end of September, but I've said if the people in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement do not accept what I've put forward as a representative view of their own, then the date's going to go back. I've said that. So that's an accepted idea.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)