Devotee: Just like Bergson, his idea of the (indistinct) of immortality, does that mean (indistinct), scientific, technological revolution.
Śyāmasundara: Yes, I think so. His idea is that evolution, as it passes through different bodies, the life force, and that eventually on this planet, man will become immortal.
Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense.
Śyāmasundara: That life forms are improving more and more and and more, until some day they'll improve to be perfect.
Prabhupāda: After (indistinct), they are living sixty years, and they think (indistinct) sixty years (indistinct). Here in this material, either sixty years or hundred sixty years or millions of sixty years or trillions of sixty years (indistinct). One who is living for sixty years, for him millions of years means immortal.
Śyāmasundara: So we took up here on the tape. We already have the rest of this on tape. So should we finish for today?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, I have another question about... There are certain scientists, who through speculative knowledge, they have acquired some little bit of knowledge through speculation. My question is, Prabhupāda, that yes, maybe through speculation we can get knowledge, some knowledge, but isn't it, as Kṛṣṇa says that He is the source of all knowledge and there is no way to get to any knowledge except through His representative, that that, for example, if Bergson comes to the knowledge, even though he did not accept a spiritual master or a prophet, he acquired it because that knowledge was made available to him through some other way. In other words...
Prabhupāda: How he takes the knowledge, if it comes..., does not come to the final conclusion? That kind of knowledge anyone can get. It does not need a philosophy. To some extent.
Atreya Ṛṣi: But knowledge of God, knowledge of soul...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real knowledge.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Real knowledge. Can one, purely speculatively, can one...
Prabhupāda: No. Otherwise the Vedas would not have asked you, tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12), that in order to learn that transcendental science one must approach a guru.
Atreya Ṛṣi: So when we see a speculator having some knowledge, some real knowledge...
Prabhupāda: Not real knowledge.
Atreya Ṛṣi: But some. Maybe some speculator will say, "Yes. I am convinced there is God." He heard that from either, for example, he heard it in his own culture or somewhere indirectly he heard it from God. He didn't make that up. Is that the conclusion?
Śyāmasundara: You mean by intuition can we understand.
Prabhupāda: Yes. One can understand. It is very easy. That I explained in the meeting, that we see, that any way you take, I have got my father, my father has got father, his father, his father, his father—so there must be some original father. That is supreme father. Another way: I don't find myself free. I am in American state, so I have to submit report to the immigration department. Or you, American citizens, you have got some obligation to the state: the draft man is there, calling you; if you don't go then you have to go to jail. So nobody is control-free; everyone is being controlled. Again, I see that the man who is controlling me, he is also controlled, and that man is also controlled, that man is... So here you see relative—I am controller and controlled. So when I approach the person who is simply controller, not controlled, that is God. How can you deny this definition of God? Simply (indistinct). Here by our experience we see, everyone is rejecting the controller and controlled. But if you can find out the Supreme Person, who is controller but not controlled, then He is God. Find out. Now, if i say that it is beyond my capacity, so go to experienced man, Brahma. He has got duration life a million times greater than you, and he got knowledge.