Prabhupāda: Then what is his reply to this dialectic proposition, that I say that "You, Mr. Mao, you are not independent. You are controlled."
Śyāmasundara: He'll say, "Yes, I am controlled by the higher truth of the socialist law, communistic law."
Prabhupāda: No, even there is no communistic law, still you are controlled, apart from the communistic law. You are controlled by the nature's law. How you can avoid it?
Śyāmasundara: Well, being only a combination of matter, I must be born and I must die, everyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But you want to be independent. You want to be uncontrolled. That is not possible. Why it is not possible? And if you are controlled, who is controlling you? What is the background of that control? So these answers they cannot give. They avoid.
Śyāmasundara: They are not interested because they say that...
Prabhupāda: They are not interested, that is not a fact. If I challenge you... Just like here is Mr. (indistinct), a lawyer He's... In the law court he is asking one question. If the other party says, "I am not interested," that will not be sufficient. Do you think? (laughs) You must be interested. You are in the law court.
Śyāmasundara: He says the only criterion for truth is its practical application in society.
Prabhupāda: The practical... First of all, you prove practically that you are independent.
Śyāmasundara: It wouldn't make any difference because...
Prabhupāda: Why not difference? My point is if your basic principle is wrong, then how you can make a perfect proposal?
Śyāmasundara: Well, I'm not concerned with questions about my origin or about the nature of matter except that...
Prabhupāda: Then you are interested in the superficial things.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. Only as it applies to society.
Prabhupāda: That superficial means it is changing. It will never be perfect. If you take superficial thing, then it is changing always. That is nature's law.
Śyāmasundara: My only interest is in the dictatorship of the proletariat, that everyone should have an equal opportunity, equal pay, equal property, everything.
Prabhupāda: That is theory, but it will never be successful. Why in Russia there is manager's pay and the worker's pay? Why not equal pay?
Revatīnandana: He says, "Abolish that." Mao says, "Abolish that system."
Devotee: No, Russia is not a Communist state.
Revatīnandana: The Chinese scoff at the Russians, that they are not Communist. They say we will not abide by this different manager... Only one pay scale for everybody.
Prabhupāda: First of all, this Communistic idea came from Russia and China imitated.
Devotee: Well, it came out of the proponent philosophers.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, the Russia is supposed to be leader of the Communistic idea.
Revatīnandana: They don't accept anymore. There is Mao...
Prabhupāda: Similarly, sometimes after, he will not be accepted. That is my proposition. As Russia is not accepted now, some days after, he will not be accepted. Similarly, your also theory will fail. That is my proposition. Because I challenge that your theory is not perfect. Because Russia's theory was not perfect, it has failed. Similarly, I say your theory is also imperfect, therefore it will fail. Anything imperfect will fail. That is my proposition.