Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...widespread, Śrīla Prabhupāda, very widespread. Now I'm afraid about it being in New York, because one of the leaders has been.... I just found out that he's one of the leaders. He's been in New York for about three weeks on his way to London, and he's a pūj..., he has his own Deities which he has on the altar, which means he's talking to our pūjārīs. I am, I have to get back there as soon as possible to see. They have like a newsletter they send out all over the world.
Rāmeśvara: They mail it out?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, well it's a bunch of notes they mail out on a regular basis. It's really poisonous. Pradyumna has been investigating. He got a bunch of their notes photocopied. The one thing I've noticed about the people that are involved with this, two features I particularly have noticed. One of them is that they don't go out on saṅkīrtana. Everyone I've seen...
Prabhupāda: Then everything will be finished. Preaching will be finished. In this sahajiyā party, then preaching will be finished. Siddha-praṇālī.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What does that mean, Śrīla Prabhupāda, siddha-praṇālī?
Prabhupāda: Siddha-praṇālī is nonsense. They have manufactured a siddha-praṇālī.
Rāmeśvara: [break] ...the initiation that you are given your siddhas, your eternal position.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are some very strange notes. You should see those notes.
Rāmeśvara: Yes, I've read them all already.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You did?
Prabhupāda: They have learned it from these Rādhā-kuṇḍa bābājīs.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From Rādhā-kuṇḍa bābājīs?
Prabhupāda: Bābājīs, yes. After all, they're fool, rascals, so whatever they say.
Rāmeśvara: The dangerous thing is that they are using your book for authority.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Authority, where? What is that? That I've already explained. Why these rascals do not take the lessons of Caitanya Mahāprabhu that we are all rascals, fools? No. That they will not take. They'll take the Rādhārāṇī's bhāva. What Caitanya Mahāprabhu is teaching by His practical life, that we have to take.
Rāmeśvara: There is one statement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, regarding devotional service in a reverential mood. So they have found some quote, they are quoting, that this reverential devotional service is an impediment towards developing pure love.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Another place they quote that regulative principles are a hindrance on the path. Because there's a statement that I think Yāmunācārya says.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a statement somewhere in one of your books that when one attains the highest platform...
Prabhupāda: Then where is that highest platform?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there's no question of it.
Rāmeśvara: One must go through stages.
Rāmeśvara: You gave the example of trying to get an M.A. degree.
Prabhupāda: Yes. One has to come to that highest stage. It is not forbidden. That may be ideal, but not for the neophytes. You must.... One who does not know ABCD, what he will know about M.A. degrees? That they do not know. They think that they have already passed M.A. degree. That is their fault.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's another statement, I saw them, where it says, it's a quote, that you can treat Kṛṣṇa as your lover and Kṛṣṇa will reciprocate.
Hari-śauri: And they underlined the two words "you can" treat Kṛṣṇa as your lover. In this way they're taking your quotes out of context.
Rāmeśvara: This is one of their main, the main ideas in their philosophy is that the living entity can desire to have any relationship he wants with Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, he can desire. I already explained: first deserve, then desire.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa and Rāmeśvara: Deserve then desire, oh.
Prabhupāda: You are rascal, how you can desire? You have no qualification, you desire to high-court judge. What is this nonsense?
Rāmeśvara: But then they have an answer.
Prabhupāda: What is that answer?
Rāmeśvara: That "Let me just try it anyway, to keep my mind thinking..."
Prabhupāda: How you can try it? First of all, be qualified, a big lawyer. Then you become high-court judge. Where is that qualification? You are after illicit sex and biḍi and you want to be associated with the gopīs.
Rāmeśvara: They say that "In ISKCON, we do not..."
Prabhupāda: Let them say all nonsense. They are disqualified. Sahajiyā bābājīs, that's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's about forty of them in this temple. Fifty. There's fifty of them in this temple, Prabhupāda.
Rāmeśvara: Oh, really?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.
Hari-śauri: A women's group and a men's group.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a women's group with about twenty-five or thirty.
Hari-śauri: The thing is that they're going around and they're soliciting for people to come and join their group, and then immediately they come, they immediately take them into all the details of the gopīs with Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Then let them.... Unless they follow the regulative principles, there is no place for that in the temple. Let them go out.
Rāmeśvara: They are following.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is their fault. They want to utilize the love affairs of Kṛṣṇa and gopīs for their debauchery. That is a support for their debauchery. That is sahajiyā.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the meaning of sahajiyā.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that's on their minds.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're frustrated.
Prabhupāda: We are restricting, "No illicit sex." They will put that "Here is illicit sex between the gopīs and Kṛṣṇa."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we can also do it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Breaking the principles.
Hari-śauri: Because sādhana-bhakti is a gradual process, they immediately want the highest perfection quickly.
Prabhupāda: That is the danger. But if they at once go to rāsa-līlā, because they are not trained up neither they are liberated, they'll think this rāsa-līlā is just like our young boys, young girls mix together, have sex like that. So it is supported our.... "Why should we restrict to no illicit sex, no this, no rules and regulations? We shall do all nonsense." That's all. And become a gopī. It is very good to aspire to become high-court judge, but how you can become high-court judge without qualification? That they are not thinking. They have no qualification, they have illicit sex, pregnant, going to abortion, and they're high-court judge.
Rāmeśvara: They say Ajāmila had no qualification and he just chanted.
Prabhupāda: Ajāmila had no qualification. Therefore they should have no qualification.
Rāmeśvara: They say...
Prabhupāda: They say. Now you accept them as authority, "They say." What is they? What they are?
Rāmeśvara: Ajāmila's qualification was he thought of Kṛṣṇa at the time of death.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But you cannot think.
Rāmeśvara: They want to think of the gopīs at the time of death.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then practice.
Prabhupāda: What they will think of at the death, why you are conjecturing now? Their habits are rascal, they're making pregnant, illicit sex, what they will think? Anyway, if we give indulgence to these people, then this preaching work will be hampered.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're not going to do that.
Prabhupāda: Or they should be separated. Otherwise, it will be bad example, and all restrictions will be broken.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If they don't change their mentality, then they should live separately, do their own society.
Prabhupāda: And they'll do that. (japa) That sahajiyā tendency is very easy to take up.
Hari-śauri: It seems like it's an inherent thing in...
Prabhupāda: Thinking of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa līlā, that is in liberated stage, not in the conditioned stage.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I could never understand, Śrīla Prabhupāda, why, I was always wondering why in all of your books you're always blasting so much time on the sahajiyās, and I was not.... Now I see why, because the tendency is so easy. I could never, I'd always think, "Why is Prabhupāda saying so much? Because they're only in India."
Rāmeśvara: He's thinking that this is a small group.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, in India, but now I see it's an easy mentality for anyone's mind that can be adopted. That's why Prabhupāda was stressing.
Rāmeśvara: And as our movement gets more and more members, there will be more and more people who will be exhibiting this sahajiyā tendency.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why it's in every book Prabhupāda speaks about it without fail.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, keep your movement very pure. You don't mind if somebody goes away. Don't mind. But we must keep our principles pure.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I always remember that you said that in the battle sometimes some men may be lost.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is natural.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Natural. Of course we don't want to lose men, but it's natural.
Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the devotee is in the original relationship with Kṛṣṇa, his siddha-deha, why is it that he sometimes changes his original rasa with Kṛṣṇa?
Rāmeśvara: Each one of us has an original relationship with Kṛṣṇa, some as plant, some as tree, some as cow, some as cowherd boy. So if that is re-established, why should the devotee desire to change it?
Prabhupāda: Well, that is spiritual kingdom. You can change if you like.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is not static, Prabhupāda once explained. Love is not static.
Prabhupāda: Generally, it is not changed. Just like mother Yaśodā, she's mother all the time, eternally.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The question came in Bombay two or three years ago. Prabhupāda said that it is not static. You can have (inaudible).
Hari-śauri: I always understood before that the rasa was fixed, but that within that rasa one may take different..., one may take a different line.
Prabhupāda: That will be revealed when you are liberated. Why you are bothering now?
Rāmeśvara: That's the point.
Prabhupāda: A patient is thinking, "How shall I dance when I become healthy?" First of all, rascal, become healthy, then talk of all this. The rascals are thinking like that. You are patient; first of all cure your disease, material disease. Then talk of all this. Utopian. "When I will get rich, how I shall treat.... I shall.... Then my wife is disobedient and I shall kick her like this," (laughter) and as soon as he kicked on the earthen pots, all broken. Then he, "Oh, then my.... All prospects have gone." You know this story?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was in the pot?
Prabhupāda: That.... A potter, potter boy, he had got some earthen pots selling. So he was dreaming, that "By selling this earthen pot, I'll make so much profit. Then I shall purchase another batch, I shall make profit. In this way, I shall be millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife must be very obedient. Otherwise I shall kick." So in this way, he kicked over the pots and (laughs) all of them broken.
Rāmeśvara: And in the end, nothing.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Devotee: So by his dreaming he, he...Prabhupāda: Yes, first of all be rich man, then do all things, how you shall kick your wife. This is going on. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "My Guru Mahārāja found Me rascal number one; therefore he ordered, 'You cannot study Vedānta. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' " They will not read this portion. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He posed Himself as a rascal.