Prabhupāda: No, that, that has killed the Indian culture. You see? Otherwise there was no necessity of division of this Pakistan. Not only that, from history, perhaps you know, this whole planet was Bhāratavarṣa, and it was controlled by one flag up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Gradually they separated, separated. This is the history. And late, lately they have separated Pakistan. So Bhāratavarṣa is now crippled into a small piece of land. Otherwise this whole... According to our scripture, Vedic scripture, this, this whole planet is called Bhāratavarṣa. Formerly it was named Ilāvṛtavarṣa, but since the Emperor Bhārata ruled over this planet, it is called Bhāratavarṣa from Mahārāja Bhārata. So this culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Vedic culture, were existing... Now any religion you take, Christian religion, Mohammedan religion or Buddhist religion, they are, utmost, two thousand, three thousand old, years old. But this Vedic scripture, you cannot trace out where is the beginning, where is the beginning. It is therefore called sanātana, eternal. And this culture is for the whole human society. It is not a departmental religious faith. Religious faith you can change, but real dharma you cannot change. Just like... You try to understand. Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā, He says:
- yadā yadā hi dharmasya
- glanīr bhavati bhārata
- abhyutthānam adharmasya
- tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham
- (BG 4.7)
- paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ
- vināśāya ca duṣkṛtaṁ
- (BG 4.8)
Duṣkṛtānam, dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya yuge yuge sambhavāmi. Now, Kṛṣṇa came to establish the religious principles, and in the last stage of speaking He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya māmekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). And that is real dharma, mām ek..., to surrender to the Supreme. That is real dharma. We are surrendering. Anyone, just like you or me, anyone, we are surrendering to somebody. That's a fact. Our, our life is by surrender. Is it not? Do you disagree with this point?
Prof. Kotovsky: To some extent you surrender.
Prabhupāda: Yes, to, to the full extent. Just like you...
Prof. Kotovsky: You are required to surrender to the society, for instance, to the whole people.
Prabhupāda: Yes, just... Whole people or the state or the king or the government, whatever you say—this surrender must be there. It may be different.
Prof. Kotovsky: I'm sorry. Only there's a difficulty. We can't agree that you have surrender to government or surrender to a king. There's a principle difference of surrender to a king, to a person, or surrender to a society.
Prabhupāda: No, that is... That is a change of color only. But the surrender is there. The principle of surrender is there. Either you surrender to monarchy, either you surrender to democracy or aristocracy or, what is called, dictatorship, you have to surrender. That's a fact. That's a fact. Without surrendering, our life is... There is no life. That is not possible. So we are educating persons to surrender to the Supreme wherefrom you get all protection. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mam ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), aham tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. So surrender is there. Nobody can say, "Now I am not surrendering to anyone." There is not a single person. Difference is where he is surrendering, where he is surrendering. The ultimate surrendering objective is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: (BG 7.19) "After surrendering to so many things, birth after birth, when he's actually wise he surrenders unto Me." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: (BG 7.19) "Such kind of mahātmā is very rare."
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. But at the same time, it seems to me that surrender, surrender is to be accompanied with revolt. The history of mankind has proved but by only revolt against some kind of surrender...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...mankind has been developed from medieval age... Like French Revolution, it was revolt against surrender. But this revolt also was surrender itself to the rank and file of the people, their (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: But so it is not enough to put a full stop on surrender.
Prabhupāda: No.
Prof. Kotovsky: Surrender is to be accompanied with revolt against surrender of other...
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore the surrender will be full stop when the surrender is to Kṛṣṇa.
Prof. Kotovsky: Ah ha ha, yes.
Prabhupāda: That is full stop, no more surrendering.
Guest: Final surrendering.
Prabhupāda: Other surrender you have to change by revolution, but when you come to Kṛṣṇa, then it is sufficient. You are satisfied. Just like... I'll give you one example, that a child is crying, and people changing laps, "Oh, you are crying." It is not stopping. But as soon as the small baby comes to the lap of his mother, he stops: "Yes, full satisfied."
Guest: Final satisfaction of...
Prabhupāda: So these changes, this surrendering, will go on in different categories. Actually all the surrenders-sum total is surrender to māyā. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayi mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). So this surrender is going on, going on. It is the māyā's, māyāra vaibhava, paraphernalia of māyā, either you surrender to this or to that. But final surrender-mām eva ye prapadyante, māyām etāṁ taranti te—the final surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then he is happy. Surrender will stay. His process of surrender is there, but this surrender keeps him quite satisfied, transcendental.
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. And haven't you come across some hostile attitude to your teaching from orthodox Hindu, from orthodox brāhmaṇas in India itself.
Prabhupāda: But rather, we have subdued them.
Prof. Kotovsky: Ah, yes.
Prabhupāda: Because we are... Any orthodox Hindu may come, but we have got our weapons, Vedic evidences. So nobody has come. But even Christian priest... Even Christian priests in America, they love me. They say that "These boys..., our boys... They are Americans. They are Christians. They are Jews. And these boys are so much after God, and we could not deliver them?" They're admitting. Their fathers, their parents, come to me. They also flatly offer their obeisances and say, "Swamiji, it is our great fortune that you have come. You are teaching God consciousness." So on the contrary, I have got reception from other countries. And India also, as you inquired of India, all other sects, they're admitting that before me many hundreds of swamis went there, but they could not convert to Kṛṣṇa consciousness a single person. They are admiring that. And so far I am concerned, I don't take any credit, but I am confident that because I am presenting the Vedic knowledge as it is, without any adulteration, it is being effective. That is my contribution. Just like if you have got a right medicine and if you administer to a patient, you must be sure that he'll cure.