Prabhupāda: What they are doing there? Something aimless. (some noise of people yelling a distance away) (break) ...because frogs never come to the... You will never find a frog in the ocean. Did you mark it?
Brahmānanda: No.
Prabhupāda: You have got so many animals but never a frog.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Maybe they don't like the salt.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, frog is conspicuous by absence. There is no frog. Therefore that example is given. They have never seen what is the ocean. (laughs) So all these scientists, they are frogs. They have never seen what is the kingdom of God. Therefore this example, "Doctor Frog." Doctor frog is never visible in the ocean. They are visible only within this circle, well. That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This example is available in Bhāgavatam, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in nyāya-śāstra. Kūpa-maṇḍūka-nyāya. Kūpa means well, and maṇḍūka means frog. "The frog in the well." The frogs, sometimes they are in river also, in bank of the rivers. But never in the ocean.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The environment is not suitable. They are fresh water species.
Prabhupāda: Well, they are also aquatics. They also live in water. But they are unfit for living in ocean water. So many varieties of life, different living entities meant for different purposes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: According to the desire of the...
Prabhupāda: According to the desire of the living entity. All facilities, whatever you want, you can have. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). Another logic is bakāṇḍa-nyāya. Bakāṇḍa. Baka and aṇḍa. Baka, the duck. And aṇḍa, the testicle, testicle of the bull. The bull is going and the testicle is hanging, and the duck is after it. He is thinking here is a fish. You find him always going...when it will drop. Bakāṇḍa. This is nature's study. (break) The baka, the duck, they are after fish. So the testicle is hanging, he's thinking it's a big fish, it will drop now. So it will never drop but he is going after it. Just see. Neither it is fish. Another logic is āja-gala-stana, āja-gala-stana. You have seen on the goats in the neck, just like nipples. If one is expecting milk from that nipple, he is also fool. It is not nipple but it looks like nipple. Āja-gala-stana-nyāya.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is like the mirage in the desert.
Prabhupāda: Yes, illusion, these are illusions. Āja-gala-stana-nyāya is applied for these rascals, those who are thinking that from matter life is coming. Exactly the same. They are thinking that here are nipples, there will milk come. Let us milk here.
Brahmānanda: But they are not getting, they are saying maybe in the future.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in future, yes. (laughter) In Sanskrit logic all these examples are there from nature's study.
Brahmānanda: Simple.
Prabhupāda: Simple, yes. Another is nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya. Nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya, just like sometimes if somebody says, "Mother, when you were a child, you were naked. Why do you put cloth now?" Nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya. The mother was naked when she was a child. Therefore she should remain naked still. That is nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya.
Brahmānanda: What is that in connection?
Prabhupāda: It has connection, if somebody was not very important and now he has become important, so the logic is how this man can be important? This logic. That because the mother was naked in the childhood, therefore she should not put on any garment. This is nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya. We change according to the circumstances. You cannot say that this must remain like this.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is also not because of the development of consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Everything is development of consciousness. So when one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that is perfect. Consciousness is there even in the tree, but that is not developed. When you cut the tree, it feels. Even a child their consciousness is not developed. Sometimes operation in the body of a child does not require anaesthetic, because they do not feel much. Can go on surgical operation on the child's body and they will feel little. Because the consciousness is not developed.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So according to the consciousness...
Prabhupāda: Development.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When a person becomes very old, he should be very intelligent.
Prabhupāda: No no. It is a question of consciousness of the body. That does not mean when a dog becomes very old he becomes very experienced. No. Consciousness according to the body. The same theory. Because a child's body is not developed, the consciousness is also not developed. Hare Kṛṣṇa. And these rascals say that because the consciousness is not developed, he has no soul. Soul is there even within the tree. But because the consciousness is not developed, the sensation is less.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But still the consciousness in a particular species is developing.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere is developing consciousness. And the topmost development is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the modern science, they say when one becomes old, the memory becomes short and then they tend to...
Prabhupāda: Yes. The body has changed. Therefore you have to accept that body has changed. Therefore next conclusion is when this body is lost he gets another body. Change of body. Seasonal changes. That one verse in the Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ, acceptance of another body. Then these modern scientists, they do not know this. They sometimes explain medical science, that blood corpuscles are changing, do they not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are sometimes white, they say, suppose when I am injured, my external something hurts. They say the white blood corpuscles are responsible to protect the body. But when the white blood corpuscles is not enough, then infection normally occurs.
Prabhupāda: Anyway there is change of corpuscles. And with the change of corpuscles there is change of body. That is scientific. Therefore body is changing every moment, so why not after death? Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So consciousness is also subject to body's changes, change of body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Body's circumstances association. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. According to association, atmosphere, circumstances, the desires changes. So that is, desire means consciousness. Just like our boys, they had different consciousness before coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like you are also scientist, there are other scientists. But your consciousness is different from theirs. Therefore you could challenge him like that. If you can create life by accumulation of these facts. He says that I do not know. He is not confident in his science.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He is not experienced. He has not seen yet.
Prabhupāda: He is not above the defects, four defects of conditioned life. You know these four defects?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Illusion, mistake, cheating, imperfectness. They are aware of the imperfectness of the senses. Still they are proud of their knowledge. This is illusion. (end)