Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda, is every jīva given a chance in the beginning to go in the spiritual world? Then he falls down, or...?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yaśomatīnandana: Or sometimes the jīva may choose directly...
Prabhupāda: The jīva is atomic. It is smaller than the atoms. One ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatāṁśaḥ sādṛśātmakaḥ (CC Madhya 19.140). So every living entity, atom.
Yaśomatīnandana: Is he first allowed...?
Prabhupāda: Less than the atom. Smaller than the atom.
Yaśomatīnandana: Is he allowed to associate with Kṛṣṇa in the beginning?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yaśomatīnandana: As jīva, as jīva is...
Prabhupāda: He's always with Kṛṣṇa. Simply he has forgotten. Have you not been with Kṛṣṇa? We are standing on this sand. The sand is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's energy. We are standing by the water. This is Kṛṣṇa's energy. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). Don't you read that? So is it different from Kṛṣṇa?
Yaśomatīnandana: No, but it is...
Prabhupāda: My body is also Kṛṣṇa's energy. I am also Kṛṣṇa's energy. I am always with Kṛṣṇa. Simply I have forgotten it.
Yaśomatīnandana: But this is Kṛṣṇa's inferior energy, right?
Prabhupāda: That may be. That is a comparative study, inferior or superior. But it is energy.
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: As energy, it is not different from Kṛṣṇa, as energy.
Yaśomatīnandana: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19).
Prabhupāda: Yes. As energy, how can you differentiate from Kṛṣṇa?
Umāpati: You give the... It could be described as like the growth of a plant as compared to the energy of the sun.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Umāpati: The growth of a plant as compared to the energy of the sun.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Umāpati: The growth of the plant is the inferior energy, and the... (loud waves)
Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many things. That is comparative study. But... (loud waves) Energy is not different from the energetic. Sunshine is not different from the sun. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. Everything is Bhagavān, but it appears like different.
Yaśomatīnandana: Is that what it means by sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: Everything is spiritual, but when it is... due to our ignorance, we think it is material.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but don't associate with... (indistinct) ...must realize.
Yaśomatīnandana: So Māyāvādīs artificially think that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They have no realization.
Yaśomatīnandana: Somebody even asked me about what is material and what is spiritual, Prabhupāda. I said that whatever is in connection with God is spiritual and whatever is not in connection with God is material. Is that right?
Prabhupāda: That's nice, that's nice.
Karandhara: The consciousness makes a difference.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Karandhara: Your consciousness makes the difference.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Karandhara: Because everything is in connection with God except for our own consciousness when we're in māyā.
Prabhupāda: Just like we are taking prasādam. How it is spiritual?
Yaśomatīnandana: It is offered to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Umāpati: By our knowledge, that it is...
Prabhupāda: By knowledge... Because it is offered to Kṛṣṇa. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there. So anything which is accepted in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is spiritual thing.
Umāpati: In perfect knowledge, would the first step be faith that it is offered to Kṛṣṇa? One may, may make an offering without being...
Prabhupāda: Well, he must learn under superior direction. Otherwise, how he can offer?
Umāpati: Well, he may make an attempt. There is a natural impulse to serve, a natural impulse to offer in man, and he may not be aware that he is seeking Kṛṣṇa in his conditioned state. Then, if...
Prabhupāda: Then whom he's offering? If he doesn't know Kṛṣṇa...
Umāpati: That is his ignorance. If he is seeking.
Prabhupāda: Then, if he's in ignorance, what is the value of his offering?
Umāpati: I did not hear the last point.
Hṛdayānanda: If he's in ignorance, what is the value of the offering?
Umāpati: That is true.
Hṛdayānanda: He needs a spiritual master.
Umāpati: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything in ignorance.
Umāpati: But then the spiritual master gives him knowledge...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Umāpati: ...and then from that knowledge he becomes aware that...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Umāpati: ...Kṛṣṇa is in the offering.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya.
Yaśomatīnandana: Spiritual master gives knowledge, and then a disciple is eternally indebted to spiritual master.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: It is not that, like Māyāvādīs, they serve the spiritual master in the beginning and then they...
Prabhupāda: Then they...
Yaśomatīnandana: ...themselves become...
Prabhupāda: ...throw him away, "Go away. I have now learned." Guru-mara-vidyā, to, the knowledge of how to kill guru. Guru-mara-vidyā. Their, the philosophy is that you cannot rise up. You take a ladder. But as soon as you rise, throw away the ladder. No more. No more needed. That is Māyāvāda philosophy. Our philosophy is dhyāyan stuvaṁs tasya yaśas tri-sandhyam.
Yaśomatīnandana: Three...
Prabhupāda: Eternally.