Ambassador: How did you feel about Gandhiji spiritually?
Prabhupāda: He was a good gentleman, that's all. He had no spiritual asset.
Ambassador: That's what I wondered. I never met him. I don't know. But he said himself, "I may be a saint among politicians, but I'm a politician among saints." (laughs)
Prabhupāda: He said or the governor said? Anyway, it is... Mr. Casey from Australia—he was governor of Bengal—he said, I think, that thing. His study was like that. He was a politician, that's all.
Ambassador: But God uses whatever material is there and He used him.
Prabhupāda: No, it was God's desire. You see? Without His desire, otherwise how such a vast British power could be driven away by the noncooperation movement? Of course, it was very nicely planned because the Britishers were ruling over India by the cooperation of the Indian.
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So when that cooperation was withdrawn, naturally they could not... They were trying to the last point, but when the Subhas Bose's organization, INA... You have studied that Indian history. Yes. INA. Indian National Army. So this National Army was formed by Subhas Candra Bose outside India with the cooperation of Hitler and Tojo. He's formed that, what is called, Indian government outside India, the INA, the soldiers... The INA soldiers means all the soldiers that were arrested in the battlefield, they were given to Subhas Candra Bose, either by the Japanese or by the Germans. So the soldiers took this opportunity; they voluntarily surrendered to the enemy. So when the Britishers understood that the soldiers, Indian soldiers, are now noncooperating, then they decided, "No, no more. It is not possible." So they voluntarily withdrew, that Sir Sirpiting(?) Lawrence, the secretary of state for India. Then they voluntarily settled up. And they settled up means the last parting kick was partition-Pakistan and India. And they partitioned in such a way that these two people will fight everlong. That is going on. They are very good politicians. So after all, it is all... There is a verse in the Bhagavad-gītā:
- sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo
- mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca
- vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaṁ
- vedānta-vid vedānta-kṛd ca aham
- (BG 15.15)
Kṛṣṇa said that "I am in everyone's heart." Sarvasya. Sarvasya ca aham hṛdi. Hṛdi means the heart. Sanniviṣṭaḥ: "I am there." So He is witnessing everything. So Britishers would have been... They were accepted by the Indians very nicely. People liked, because after the Mohammedan period, when the Britishers came, they did something which was very, very nice for the Indians, and the Indians, they liked them very much. Later on, they became too much greedy. For their own men they wanted to sacrifice everything Indian. So that Jalianwala-bagh. Then the Gandhi came and took this vow that "The Britishers must go, quit India." So Britishers got a very good opportunity for world unity under British Empire. But their only policy was that to exploit others and enrich London. That was their bad policy, yes. They should have ruled for the benefit of the people. Then British rule was very nice.
Ambassador: If they hadn't had such a guilty conscience themselves...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ambassador: ...they wouldn't have left easily.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there was no need. Every country requires good government. So if somebody gives good government and keeps the people nice, happy, and people hasn't got any interest that the... Now they have made like that. Formerly, at least in India, they didn't care whether it is being ruled by the Mohammedans or by the Englishmen or foreign... They wanted peaceful life, that's all. So the Mohammedans, they made their home in India, the Moguls. They were not exploiting India and taking the money outside. Although the Moguls were very luxurious, but they were spending money in India, India's money in India. And, of course, they accuse, the Mohammedan government was very bad. But I think if it was so bad, how they could rule over India for eight hundred years? And in those days Indians were in their own culture. They did not lose their culture, Hindu culture. The Britishers peacefully killed the Hindu culture, Vedic culture, yes.
Ambassador: I saw where they killed it much more effectively, and that was in Ceylon.
Prabhupāda: Ceylon, oh.
Ambassador: India's too big to kill, so it lived. But Ceylon was practically finished. There is nothing of its own left. They had to reinvent it after they got rid of the British.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ambassador: They'd lost their dance. They'd lost their... Everything really national had gone.
Prabhupāda: That was not...
Ambassador: Even Buddhism had gone. It was revived by foreigners.
Prabhupāda: Oh, Dutch. Dutch people, there were.
Ambassador: Germans especially. But now may I ask you while I have the chance? You have had so much to do with bringing the dharma to the West. What is your idea? What is your mission? It seems to me, in many ways there is a transfer of the essential spirit going West, because the interest is there.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ambassador: And what is left in the East is so often just the materialism imitated from the West among many young people now.
Prabhupāda: Where, in the East? Yes.
Ambassador: In the East. So there's been a crossover taking place.
Prabhupāda: Hm, yes.
Ambassador: Do you see it like that?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In Western countries they are now fed up with this materialistic way of life. And I think it will very soon collapse, the Western way of life. And naturally the next enquiry is spiritual.
Ambassador: Yes, it's already beginning.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The material life means animal life.
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So when the animal comes to higher consciousness, that is spiritual consciousness. We are combined at the present moment. We are actually spiritual, but some way or other, we have come in contact with matter, and we are covered by the material body, and... But we cannot become happy with this material interest. That's a fact. Just like the fish cannot be happy on the land. The example is: just like the other day we saw one crocodile. One or two... two, three?
Paramahaṁsa: Two or three.
Prabhupāda: In where?
Paramahaṁsa: Caracas.
Prabhupāda: Caracas, yes. So one of the crocodile was on the land, and two were in the water. So in the water they were very living, alive. But in the land it was like dead.