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In knowledge also we are individual (either you are in ignorance or in knowledge, both cases you are individual)?

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Expressions researched:
"In knowledge also we are individual"

Conversations and Morning Walks

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Yes. Knowledge means knowledge of yourself. When you are actually in knowledge, then you will surrender to Kṛṣṇa... Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). That is knowledge. So long you do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, you are in ignorance. Now, in ignorance, in ignorance I am surrendering to my wife, and in knowledge I'll have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa.
Morning Walk -- March 25, 1974, Bombay:

Guest (1): God is the knower everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): He's there every time. Bhūtvā bhāvyo bhavat prabhuḥ (?). God was in the past, present. He's ev... He is in the past, as well as present, in the future. There is no question of...

Prabhupāda: No, no. I was also. I am also nitya.

Guest (1): No, we are not nitya.

Prabhupāda: God is nityo nityānām.

Guest (1): I mean... Nityānām. But we are jīva. As long as I am jīva. I don't...

Prabhupāda: Ah, then dvaita-vāda. Then dvaita-vāda.

Guest (1): Dvaita-vāda has to come. As long as you're in the body, you are dvaita. You cannot say when you are in the body that you are the God.

Prabhupāda: No, no. We are always dvaita.

Guest (1): As long as you are in the body, if you have got the body consciousness, then you're always in dvaita.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Body, body, body is...

Guest (1): No, what I mean, Swamiji...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): I have got a body consciousness, that I am the body. I am shawl (?). Then I am dvaita, and I should be your servant.

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest (1): And I cannot say that I am the Lord. But if...

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest (1): ...I forget completely body consciousness...

Prabhupāda: Body consciousness, that is ignorance. That is... Just like you are dressed with this shirt. If you think that you are shirt, that is your ignorance.

Guest (1): Body consciousness...

Prabhupāda: Just first of all try to understand.

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: If you think that you are a shirt, that is ignorance, gross ignorance.

Guest (1): That's right, correct.

Prabhupāda: And if I have got this shawl, if I am thinking, "I am shawl," that is my ignorance. But either shawl or shirt, we are all individuals. That is (indistinct) This, this is ignorance. But ignorance or knowledge, we are all individual.

Guest (1): Body consciousness is not, I mean it is... Suppose somebody insults me.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): Suppose somebody insults a God-minded person, and the God-minded person thinks, "Well, he's not insul..., he's insulting this body, and not the living entity in me." That means he has lost the body consciousness. Suppose if beats with a stick, and he goes...

Prabhupāda: No, no. That, that is ignorance. I have already explained.

Guest (1): But I feel it is not ignorance...

Prabhupāda: Ignorance...

Guest (1): It is, if he feels in the true sense...

Prabhupāda: No, my point is, either you are in ignorance or in knowledge, you are individual. (break) ...have to, so why so long?

Guest (1): Yes, here, here is... We have to walk quickly there.

Dr. Patel: But we thought you would come late, so we went there.

Guest (1): So you have lost some... (break)

Guest (2) (Indian man): ...paripraśnena sevayā... (break)

Prabhupāda: Either you are in ignorance or in knowledge, both cases you are individual.

Guest (1): In knowledge also we are individual?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): How?

Prabhupāda: Knowledge means...

Dr. Patel: Knowledge of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge means knowledge of yourself. When you are actually in knowledge, then you will surrender to Kṛṣṇa... Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). That is knowledge. So long you do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, you are in ignorance. Now, in ignorance, in ignorance I am surrendering to my wife, and in knowledge I'll have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (1): Correct.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Guest (1): Both the times we are individuals. In both the times we are individuals. Correct.

Prabhupāda: Nityo nityānām.

Guest (1): Nityaḥ anityānām.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Some people say nityaḥ anityānām also.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Dr. Patel: Nityaḥ anityānām some also say. Nityo 'nityānāṁ cetanaś...

Prabhupāda: Who... One who says anitya, he's a rascal. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: Take that.

Prabhupāda: I, I say you. How, how the jīvas can be anitya?

Dr. Patel: No, it cannot be.

Prabhupāda: Then nitya.

Dr. Patel: No, they mean, anitya means all the matter. Nitya in the matter.

Guest (1): Temporary, effervescent.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Dr. Patel: Nitya in the matter, in the form of...

Prabhupāda: As soon as they say anitya, then they are duality. There is no oneness.

Dr. Patel: So I have read both the type of acclamation (?), nitya and anitya.

Prabhupāda: No, then... One who says anitya... Anitya...

Dr. Patel: Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13).

Prabhupāda: Yes!

Dr. Patel: Yo vidadhāti...

Prabhupāda: Eko yo bahūnām.

Dr. Patel: Eko yo bahūnām.

Prabhupāda: Vidadhāti kāmān.

Guest (1): ...vidadhāti kāmān, tam ātmānam evānupaśyanti dhīras... netareśam (?).

Prabhupāda: Nityo nityānām. That means we, jīva, we are plural number, and the Supreme Lord is singular number. So what is the difference? The difference is that eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That bahu-vacana, nityānām, they are maintained by the singular number.

Dr. Patel: Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. He is only one. But He is, I mean, fulfilling their... This is so many, all. Because He actually...

Prabhupāda: He is feeding everyone. He is feeding His devotee, as well as nondevotees. The nondevotees are also provided by God. The nondevotees, they are not independent. They are also dependent. But they do not acknowledge.

Guest (1): They don't understand.

Prabhupāda: Just like the prisoners. They are also maintained by government. And those who are not prisoners, they are also maintained by government. The prisoners are outlaw. They do not recognize the government. That is prisoner, criminals. But both of them are provided by the government. And so far individuality is concerned, that is mentioned in the Second Chapter. Kṛṣṇa said that "You, Me, and all these soldiers and kings, they were before existing like this, they're existing now like this, and they'll continue to exist." So individuality's always. Kṛṣṇa never said that "After this, we shall become a homogeneous mass." Never says. Individual.

Guest (1): Just as the bees gather honey from different trees...

Prabhupāda: Yes, they keep their individuality.