Hari-śauri: Where will we introduce the varṇāśrama system, then?
Prabhupāda: In our society, amongst our members.
Hari-śauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...
Prabhupāda: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varṇāśrama, not everybody brāhmaṇa.
Hari-śauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...
Prabhupāda: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.
Hari-śauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...
Hari-śauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.
Prabhupāda: Not necessary. You remain as a kṣatriya. You'll be ha...
Hari-śauri: No need for even any brāhmaṇa initiation, then...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Hari-śauri: ...unless one is...
Prabhupāda: No, brāhmaṇa must be there. Why do you say, generalize?
Hari-śauri: Unless one is particularly...
Prabhupāda: Not that a śūdra man is by force become a brāhmaṇa. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a śūdra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya sam... (BG 18.46). He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a śūdra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a śūdra can get perfection provided he does the work of a śūdra perfectly.
Hari-śauri: For Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Therefore why a śūdra artificially should be a brāhmaṇa? Let them, let him remain a śūdra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of śūdra, he'll also be as good as a brāhmaṇa. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.
Satsvarūpa: Today you've been saying that the Vaiṣṇava is the highest, above the brāhmaṇa. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vaiṣṇava everyone, even if he's not brāhmaṇa. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that."
Satsvarūpa: If in our society we say, "Śrīla Prabhupāda wants some to be śūdra..."
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaiṣṇava. But because he's a śūdra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brāhmaṇa, or Vaiṣṇava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a śūdra, he's a Vaiṣṇava.
Hari-śauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.
Prabhupāda: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Kṛṣṇa says. Bring that Bhagavad-gītā. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ?
- sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ
- saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ
- sva-karma-nirataḥ siddhiṁ
- yathā vindati tac chṛṇu
"By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is śūdra, clerk. He can... As a śūdra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brāhmaṇa and sannyāsī and fall down? This has to be checked.