Prabhupāda: This is Theosophical Society, I think. Huh? That trademark. Or Rāmakrishna Mission.
Acyutānanda: No, Salvation Army.
Prabhupāda: Salvation Army, oh.
Mahāmṣa: This is also school.
Harikeśa: Actually we're the only Salvation Army.
Acyutānanda: (break) ...the authority of a authority. We're accepting his authority, but his experience comes from his direct perception, which comes back to...
Prabhupāda: We don't take such authorities, who takes experience from others. We take authority who is...
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Experienced.
Prabhupāda: Automatically. (sic:) Parāsya bhaktir vividhaiva śruyate svabhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. Svabhāva..., you can.... Just like if you ask me how to do something, if I say, "Yes, you do like this," svabhāvikī. I have got by nature knowledge how to do it perfectly. That is going on. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). Kṛṣṇa is dictating that "You do like this." So, you see, everything is coming perfect. From the nim seed a nim tree will come. It is so nicely made by Kṛṣṇa-bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (Bg 7.10)—that it will come nim tree, not mango tree. The chemicals are so combined. You do not know what is there, a small seed, baṭa vṛkṣa. And a huge banyan tree will come out, not other tree. That is knowledge. He has given the whole, I mean to say, operation in a small seed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. There is no mistake. You simply take it and cultivate. You'll get the result.
Acyutānanda: So that principle, which makes things grow, the Īśopaniṣad says, so 'ham asmi: "I am that principle."
Acyutānanda: The Īśopaniṣad says in the ultimate śloka, so 'ham asmi: "I am that."
Prabhupāda: Asmi means "It is my energy. It is my energy."
Acyutānanda: No, it says...
Prabhupāda: If I say that "I am ISKCON," what is the wrong there? Because I have created this; therefore I say, "ISKCON means I. I am ISKCON." So what is the wrong there? It is like that. By energy of Kṛṣṇa, everything has come out. Therefore says, "I am this, I am this, I am this, I am this." Vibhūti-bhinnam. Because everything.... Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Everything has come from Kṛṣṇa.
Acyutānanda: No, the Īśopaniṣad says that you are that principle. Īśopaniṣad says the principle which is lighting the sun...
Prabhupāda: Yes, a devotee accepts.... That we accept.
Acyutānanda: ...that "I am that principle. The being that is lighting the sun, I am that."
Prabhupāda: I do not follow you.
Acyutānanda: So 'ham asmi. That sixteenth...
Harikeśa: "Like unto the sun, as am I."
Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes, so 'ham asmi—because I am part and parcel.
Acyutānanda: No, but it says "I am that, " not that "I am part of that."
Acyutānanda: "I am that." "Like unto..."
Prabhupāda: If it is said, it can be accepted, because I am qualitatively the same.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Quantity, much difference.
Acyutānanda: No, but the direct statement...
Prabhupāda: I am.... If I say, "I am Indian," what is the wrong there, if I say, "I am Indian"?
Acyutānanda: That is something else.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not something else.
Acyutānanda: But to directly accept the śruti, it says you are that same principle.
Prabhupāda: And therefore you have to learn from the guru. And if you directly take, then you remain a fool. Therefore you require a guru. That is the instruction of śruti. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You have to learn śruti. You have to come to a guru.
Acyutānanda: No, but this is after that. The ultimate conclusion of that Upaniṣad, śruti, the authority, is that you are that same principle.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am the same principle. Nityo nityānām.
Acyutānanda: Well, nothing can be more eternal than another eternal.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is eternal.
Acyutānanda: It is contradictory then. Nityo nityanānāṁ. You cannot say that one thing is more eternal than another thing.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not the point. Everyone is eternal.
Acyutānanda: So how can one be more eternal than...
Prabhupāda: As God is eternal, so you are also eternal.
Acyutānanda: Then why the distinction...?
Prabhupāda: But because you have accepted this material body, you are foolishly thinking that you are not eternal. Otherwise, as God is eternal, you are also eternal.
Acyutānanda: Then why should one be distinguished from another if they are both eternal?
Prabhupāda: Just like the sun distinguished from the sunshine, but qualitatively heat and light is there. But because sunshine is there, you cannot say sun is there. That you cannot say. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4). Clearly said.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: I think, Swamijī, you explained this, and I could draw rationality from it, that "I am īśa, but not I am sarveśa. I am ātman but not Paramātman."
Keśavalāl Trivedi: "I am aṁśa but not Paramāṁśa."
Prabhupāda: That is explained in other.... You have to take reference. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). I am also īśvaraḥ. That I explained so many times. But that does not mean I am paramesvara. Paramesvara is Kṛṣṇa. What is this building? Hm?
Acyutānanda: This is more of that Christian...
Acyutānanda: Same seal as the Christian...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about that?
Acyutānanda: This is a mosque.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi I was not able to explain till I heard Swamijī on the first day at Rajeswara in Mandapur.(?) That fits in. Otherwise Māyāvādīns, "All right, but Śaṅkarācārya saying, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Why you say no?" Because so many persons ask me question. And when I was confronted, I was not able to say that. But the way the mukti was defined, mukti, yes, and in the lecture, and īṣa, sarveśa, all those things—ātmā, Paramātmā, aṁśa, Paramāṁśa—there I found that it can be explained. Because so many persons, they ask in public meeting like Lions Club, where we take up these topics. Then we feel at our wit's end. But now I think I can explain them.
Prabhupāda: So that day my explanation was all right?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes, that is how I feel. And that is what will apply also to Acyutānanda Swami's question also, I think.
Acyutānanda: No, I'm just fencing.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: No, no, that's all.... I know.
Acyutānanda: So Durga is higher than Viṣṇu because Viṣṇu required Durga to awaken Him from the yoga-nidrā to kill Madhu and Kaitabha. So she controls Him.
Prabhupāda: Yes, if I ask my servant that "You ask me to get up at seven o'clock," that does not mean.... (laughter)