Hayagrīva: ...quotations on Aristotle. Aristotle believes that God expresses Himself through matter, although he also believes that God is transcendent and separate from the universe.
Prabhupāda: He believes some way and other believes some way, so which is..., which one is correct?
Hayagrīva: He does not follow Plato's dualism of the "here" and the "there." Plato made a sharp distinction between the material universe and the spiritual universe, but Aristotle believes there is no sharp distinction because God expresses Himself in matter. Since matter is simply one of God's energies, the finite reflects the infinite.
Prabhupāda: So what is the other energy? Does he know?
Hayagrīva: He doesn't concern himself with that. He says that by knowing something of the world about us, we can know something about God.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: So his, his...
Prabhupāda: It may be that you know something about God. Then you have to admit that you do not know everything about God. So their knowledge is imperfect. Our point is that we know everything of God from God. So that knowledge is perfect. As Kṛṣṇa said in the Seventh Chapter, that mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. "If you concentrate your mind on your attachment to Me, and if you execute yoga meditation, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then you understand Me fully and without any doubt." So instead of speculating in God, if we simply think of God, that will help us. To escape from darkness, if you speculate about the sun by some suggestion, by some concoction, this is one kind of knowledge. But if you actually come out of the darkness and see the sun, then it is complete (indistinct).
Hayagrīva: Now...
Prabhupāda: These Western philosophers, mostly they are contemplating about the sunshine in darkness. But that is not the way of understanding the sun. Best thing is to come in the sunshine, see yourself, see the sunshine, see the sun. There is (indistinct).
Hayagrīva: Here's another point. Aristotle says that it is not material objects that are trying to realize God, like as Plato says, but God realizing Himself through material objects. God does this in a variegated way and in an infinite way. So God realizes the potentiality of a rose or of a man by creating a rose, a flower, a man that is perceivable by the material senses. So the world is more real to Aristotle than it is to Plato.
Prabhupāda: If God has created the material world and material variety, so means He is in full awareness how to do things nicely. That is perfectness of God. He knows everything how to do it perfectly, naturally. Just like even a child, we get daily experience, when we offer some cake in the Deity room, the child immediately takes it and puts in the mouth. Although she is very small baby, (s)he doesn't require any education about taking the cake and what to do with it. Immediately puts in the mouth. So this natural, what is called, knowledge, that is God's knowledge. He knows everything perfectly well, and when He produces a rose flower, it is all-perfect. That is God's... God is not..., He has to get the knowledge through some source. He is already in awareness of everything. That is God. So He hasn't got to know His capacity through matter.
Hayagrīva: Now Aristotle would say that the flower is real because it has its basis in the ultimate reality, God.
Prabhupāda: That..., how God can be not in knowledge? He is full in knowledge. That is God.
Hayagrīva: Plato would say that the flower is a shadow of reality, a perverted reflection of reality. So which point of view would be...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is... When the flower is in the material world..., material world is perverted reflection of the spiritual world. That's a fact. We have got experience that material things are created, but in the spiritual world things are not created; they are already there, everlasting. So it appears Aristotle has no knowledge of the spiritual world.
Hayagrīva: Aristotle defines God as pure form and pure act and purely nonmaterial. He is absolute spirit and is the unmoved mover.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is absolute spirit, there is no doubt upon it, but why He should come to know Himself through material world? That is defective.
Hayagrīva: Aristotle's God contemplates Himself. He does not have any knowledge of the world...
Prabhupāda: Who?
Hayagrīva: ...as such.
Prabhupāda: Who has no knowledge?
Hayagrīva: God.
Prabhupāda: What kind of God is that?
Hayagrīva: I don't know.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) This is Aristotle's ignorance, that he does not know what is God and he is speaking about God. That is his ignorance.
Hayagrīva: Nor, he says, nor can God return the love that He receives. He doesn't love or care for mankind.
Prabhupāda: So He is in perfect knowledge, then why He should not reciprocate? So God reciprocates. It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). As much as we offer our love to God, He, what is called, cooperates, cooperative response. When we fully surrender and fully in loving service, then we can understand God, what He is actually.