Prabhupāda: Now, my point is that Buddhism was rejected from India because he's decried the authority of Vedas.
Indian man (3): So this fellow also will be rejected.
Prabhupāda: That... Yes, immediately. Because he does not accept the authority of Vedas. That is real knowledge. Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam Yes, yajña, I mean to say, criticize the yajña-vidhi. Yajña-vidhi you cannot criticize. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Karma-bandhana. So yajña must go on, and the vidhi must be followed. That is real acceptance of Vedic knowledge. If you manufacture your own concoction, "This is good, this is bad," that will not help you.
Indian man (3): Vetas pi pavitranam svadhinam ca tasam api, vedanam ca na kartavyam nindha saddhya...(?)
Prabhupāda: But why he's making nindā? You don't eat, even it is... Now in the first you said, you don't..., you cannot kill animal, even if it is...
Indian man (3): I, I follow even though you said that you kill it for the sake of yajña, I am not going to kill it, that's all. That is my personal...
Prabhupāda: No, no. That you can do. But you cannot decry the Vedic laws.
Indian man (2): This is not decrying the Vedic law...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes... You said, api, even if it is enjoined in the Vedas...
Indian man (2): I don't think so.
Prabhupāda: Why not? It is clear, it is clear. You don't think, but the writing is there.
Indian man (3): The writing...
Prabhupāda: Writing is there.
Indian man (3): The writing can be interpreted in a lot of ways.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no! You can interpret. No, no, no, no. We are not interpreting.
Indian man (3): We are not going to take that way.
Prabhupāda: We cannot... As soon as you say api, even if it is enjoined in the Vedas, don't do it. That means decrying the Vedas. What do you think?
Indian man (2): You want us to eat meat by saying that the Vaiṣṇavas..., we won't do it.
Prabhupāda: The Vaiṣṇava is forbidden.
Indian man (2): But then, this is a Vaiṣṇava way, forbidden to eat the meat.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But therefore you cannot decry the Vedas.
Indian man (4): But this is not Veda, you see? If you kill an animal and sacrifice in the way of...
Prabhupāda: That is Vedic injunction. Sacrifice is done...
Indian man (4): This is tantra, not Veda. Vedas don't want. And there used to be animal living again after killing it...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Indian man (4): Are you able to do it?
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Indian man (4): So this is tantra. He wants to decry the tantra, not Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Indian man (4): By tantra they're verily killing animals to eat them away for the pleasure of their teeth, for the pleasure of the tongue.
Prabhupāda: Tantra, tantra... I do not know what kind of tantra...
Dr. Patel: ...does not believe in killing animal and eating it even... Vedas say you can eat, I will not. And I don't mind decrying the Vedas that way, if you say so, sir. (indistinct) Vaiṣṇava, I don't think I can allow anyone to be killed. I'm very sorry to say this.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Dr. Patel: If the Vedas say "Kill," I won't. I won't, don't want that.
Prabhupāda: That is Buddhism.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind you call me a Buddhist or a fool, but I won't kill an animal, being a Vaiṣṇava myself.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but the thing is that you may not like something, but you cannot decry the authority of the Vedas.
Dr. Patel: This is not decrying the authority of Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: ...excuse me, I will bring the Vedas before you. I have studied.
Prabhupāda: You can manufacture your own way...
Dr. Patel: I'm not manufacturing, I'm not manufacturing. Nowhere Veda say you kill the animals, and eat them away. They, our forefathers were so clever as to kill them and bring them living again.
Prabhupāda: Every sacrifice, every sacrifice there is written in injunction of Vedic...
Dr. Patel: Sacrificing means you're sacrificing your own...
Prabhupāda: You may mean something, but actually, that is not the meaning. That is the difference. You may mean something. The point is that you may follow. In the Vedas there are different ways, but you cannot decry the authority of the Vedas. That is the point.
Dr. Patel: The ideal Vaiṣṇava will not say this. The ideal Vaiṣṇava. Even Vedas say to kill an animal anytime, I won't. I won't kill it, I won't eat it. I'll not eat even in England as a student of London University-meat.
Prabhupāda: I'm recommending you to eat meat?
Dr. Patel: No, you eat the..., indirectly so.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Dr. Patel: I'm very sorry.
Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to talk with you. Therefore you cannot take any lesson.
Dr. Patel: No, I'm not taking this lesson, going to kill an animal to eat it. That lesson in no way I will take.
Prabhupāda: That is meant for others!
Dr. Patel: Ācchā! Not for me.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise, as a Vaiṣṇava you can't...
Prabhupāda: I don't say that Vaiṣṇava. Why I'll say? Why you talk like that?
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Swamiji told his disciples not to take meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (3): (Hindi)
Indian man (2): No.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) ...allow.
Indians: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Allowed for the rascals and fools.
Dr. Patel: Fools, but we are not rascals. So he...
Prabhupāda: You cannot reject the rascals and fools. That is the way.
Dr. Patel: But he is rejecting rascals and fools.
Prabhupāda: Gradually, gradually. Just like...
Dr. Patel: As a Vaiṣṇava we can't tolerate meat.
Prabhupāda: That is all right, but...
Dr. Patel: I can...
Prabhupāda: ...you cannot...
Dr. Patel: ...not mix it. They go, sometimes, and feed (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Even they go, that does not mean they're going to kill animal.
Dr. Patel: But suppose an animal is killed and prasāda is offered, they won't take it.
Prabhupāda: No, no, yes.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, that is what it says, "Don't take this prasāda even if it is offered."
Prabhupāda: But I cannot say to stop animal sacrifice before the deity Goddess Kālī. That I cannot say. I cannot disobey. I may not take it.
Dr. Patel: That is what he means to say, but...
Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that I reject...
Dr. Patel: "My followers do not take meat even kālī-yajña."
Prabhupāda: You cannot dictate on the Vedic authority. Veda...
Dr. Patel: Kālī temple, Kālī temple is not Vedic, but it is Tantric, Tantric.
Prabhupāda: That you say, that you say. Not tantra. Tantra is also within the Vedas. Just like we have got Nārada-pañcarātra.
Dr. Patel: That's right, but we are following Nārada-pañcarātra, aren't we?
Prabhupāda: Tantra.
Dr. Patel: All of us. All Vaiṣṇavas in India, Nārada-pañcarātra is very pivot around which we all live on.
Prabhupāda: We are not advocating meat eating. You do not understand. We are saying that even if you don't eat meat, you cannot decry the arrangement in the Vedas. That you cannot do.
Indian man (3): But this is not Vedic, eh...
Prabhupāda: This is Vedic!
Indian man (3): ...that you can...
Prabhupāda: In the yajña, not that all yajña. But in the... Some yajñas, there is recommendation. It is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ.
Dr. Patel: Yajña-śiṣṭa aśinaḥ. Not meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Aśinaḥ.
Indian man (3): ...mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ.
Prabhupāda: So this position is there. Those who are rascals and rogues will meat eat.
Dr. Patel: But we are not rascals and rogues.
Prabhupāda: No, no, those who will eat meat, to bring them gradually to the platform of perfection. That is allowed.
Dr. Patel: We are a Vaiṣṇava..., as Vaiṣṇavas we are not allowed to do this.
Prabhupāda: You cannot stop that. Suppose you..., there are so many nonviolence philosophies, Buddha, Jains, but have they been able to stop this meat-eating?
Dr. Patel: The Vaiṣṇavas, they are to only perform those yajñas called...
Prabhupāda: Yajñas for satisfaction of Viṣṇu.
Indian man (3): And that, that is also... Viṣṇu-yajña is there, there is no sacrifice of animals.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you do not know, there is.
Indian man (4): Yajña is not necessary at all.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (4): Yajña is only for getting, to gain certain aims.
Prabhupāda: In the Bhāgavatam you'll find the dākṣa-yajña, dākṣa-yajña. Dākṣa-yajña. There was a goat, and that goat was cut and it was added to the head of Dakṣa Mahārāja.
Indian man (4): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is described in the Bhāgavatam.
Indian man (4): Yajñas are only done for certain aims actually, and are not required at all.
Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). That is our...
Indian man (4): The saṅkīrtana be our yajña.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) It is stated in the śāstra, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ. Kalau, in this age...
Indian man (3): Why discuss these things for others? We are not meat-eaters, nor we do... (laughs)
Prabhupāda: He's going in a different way.
Indian man (3): As a Vaiṣṇava. No, that is what I'm...
Prabhupāda: No, you do not understand, that is the defect...
Indian man (3): That is my misfortune, that is my misfortune because I am a little fixed-cult man. But then you explain me what I should behave.
Prabhupāda: Suppose you don't believe in meat-eating, can you stop?
Indian man (3): I don't want to stop. For your followers yes, you say don't eat meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (3): Like that he has told us, "Don't eat meat."
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Indian man (3): You don't want to eat, do yajña.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (3): So don't call it Buddhist.
Prabhupāda: But that doesn't... No, this is Buddhist philosophy; you do not know it.
Indian man (3): I'm not talking about Vaiṣṇava philosophy and Buddhist...
Prabhupāda: This is Buddhist philosophy. That even if the Buddha, Lord Buddha said, "Even if it is recommended in the Vedas, I don't accept Vedas." That is Buddhist philosophy.
Indian man (4): He accepts Veda. He said the next moment. Now we read it, I've read it before you.
Prabhupāda: You'll see, it is stated, nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam is the Vedas. There is recommendation of sacrifice, but you have decried them.
Indian man (4): He has not decried them. Devatam, devata te ta vi pranam sadvinam ca satam api, vedanam ca na kartavyam nindā svadya na ca tapi.(?)
Prabhupāda: Hm. So this is nindā. If you say, "Even if it is recommended in the Vedas," that is nindā. If you say, "Even if it is recommended by the Vedas," that means Vedas are mistaken. You are right. You do not know what is the purpose of Vedas.
Indian man (4): What is the purpose of Vedas?
Prabhupāda: The purpose is gradually to bring them...
Indian man (4): But he...
Prabhupāda: ...not that all of a sudden that you say "No, you cannot eat."
Indian man (4): He..., all of a sudden he talks about Vaiṣṇavas who are above all these low-class fellows. Vaiṣṇavas are much above all those meat-eaters, then who is instructing the Vaiṣṇavas?
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇavas should go to sacrifice. (Hindi)
Indian man (3): There is no... Hindu, aren't the Hindus...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You are mixing the Hindu, Muslim, and Vaiṣṇava...
Indian man (3): I don't think I am so fool like that, to mix up Hinduism with Buddhism. I think you have little be...
Prabhupāda: But you don't hear me, that is the difference.
Indian man (3): I'm hearing you perfectly well, but I'm very quick to grasp it, that is the misfortune of me.
Prabhupāda: You are quick to deviate, that is the point. You do not hear.
Indian man (3): How can you... (laughs) How can you say I'm in...
Prabhupāda: That is the... That is your alpa-medhasaḥ. You cannot understand. What I'm speaking you do not understand.
Indian man (3): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: He... That example I'm giving, that the law is that the murderer should be hanged. If you fight, "I don't care for this law, because you are hanging one person," that will be contempt of court. You may not like, but the law is there. You cannot condemn the law. That is my point. That is my point.
Indian man (4): My point is no meat-eating by Vaiṣṇavas.
Prabhupāda: You, you... You do not like that anyone should be condemned to death...
Dr. Patel: That, that's all right.
Prabhupāda: ...but for that reason you cannot condemn the law.
Indian man (3): But he's not condemning the law. He said, "Don't make the yajña." He said, "Make the yajña but don't eat the meat." That is not condemning the law.
Prabhupāda: All right. (break) You cannot say the law is only for the Vaiṣṇava.
Dr. Patel: He does not say that don't... (break) Nonkilling and not...
Prabhupāda: You are mistaken there.
Dr. Patel: I'm not mistaken. I don't think I'm such a fool as that.
Prabhupāda: You're mistaken there, that this yajña is meant for other person, not for you.
Dr. Patel: That is why I say that we are not preventing them to do the yajña, but we are not...
Prabhupāda: You cannot surrender.
Dr. Patel: That is we are not asking them to break the law.
Prabhupāda: That is his preventing, that even it is recommended...
Dr. Patel: He's not preventing his followers not to eat meat. Isn't it? I think, I have not...
Indian man (3): Then it is all right. So I'm all right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)