Prabhupāda: Jīva-jātiṣu. Jīva-jātiṣu. That means the evolution means from one form to another. The forms are already... Jātiṣu. Their facilities, they are already there. The living entity is simply transferring himself. The same example: One man is transferring himself from one apartment to another. That apartment is first-class, second-class, third-class. Just a person has come from a lower class apartment to a first-class apartment. The person is the same. Now, according to his karma or according to his capacity of payment, he has got a good apartment. This is... Bhramadbhiḥ. Bhramat means wandering, wandering. Not that they... Evolution means developing. Is it not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. I understand that part, but I also come across from Śrīla Prabhupāda's commentary on the Bhagavad-gītā that the living entities, all the living entities, 8,400,000 species, they are simultaneously created.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That means there are some living entities, say for example, human beings. They come right away to the human platform without undergoing the...
Prabhupāda: Yes, Brahmā. Just like Brahmā. He is in human form only with four hands. He is the first born. And then he created other living entities. Brahmā is first born from Viṣṇu. He has got four heads, four hands, two legs, he can speak. It is human form. Then, from him other forms came out, marīcy ādi, ṛṣi, great great, saintly persons. Nārada, Kumāra. In this way, creation was there.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the evolution of life... Those who are coming to the lowest living entity, the organisms, smaller units, so once they come to that stage, then they have to pass through the stages stepwise.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just the same example: As you get more money, you can acquire better apartment. The apartment is already there. Not that a apart..., this lower class apartment has become high class apartment. This is their nonsense. The Darwin nonsense theory is like that: "The apartment has become lower class to higher class." That is his theory.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, he is saying that evolving from the smaller units. So they are claiming that there was no human beings at the beginning, so the smaller living entities...
Prabhupāda: But they are claiming that there is no life. That is their defect. Therefore they cannot think how there can be human being. But if you begin from life, supreme life, Viṣṇu, from another life, Brahmā came, then there is no problem. Everything is all right. Because they think that life comes from matter, so millions and millions of years ago there was simply matter. Life was not visible. That is their theory. We don't say that. We say both are the energies, God's energies, life and matter. The life is superior energy; the matter is inferior energy. That is the difference. Both of them are existing. Same thing, example: This nail and this part existing always. This is superior part, this is inferior.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are existing simultaneously or living entity creates.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Without nails how can I exist? Without skin, how can I exist? My existence means everything—my skin, my hair, my nails, my legs, my hands, everything.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So one is dependent on the other? Or the spirit is independent of matter?
Prabhupāda: The spirit is independent. Just like I am existing. That is life. And there are other limbs of the body. I can live even without limbs of my body, but I cannot live without life. If I have no hands, no legs, still I live. So therefore I am not dependent on hands and legs. My hands and legs are dependent on me. (pause) Is it not better to walk little, then sit down, compact room?
Karandhara: Oh yes, it's necessary to walk a little.