Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Gerau? Gerau? What is that Gerau? Gerau? You know Gerau? Naxalite?
Indian man (2): These are all important things. It is not in our concept. Even a small man, from the starvation, can stay in a hut, inside a bungalow. There the people are making delicious food. They'll starve and die. How? Because they won't give (unclear). It is not because they are taught by some gurus or... Not like that. They are themselves (unclear)
Indian man (3): Good and bad go together.
Indian man (2): These are other things.
Indian man (3): It is everywhere.
Indian man (2): But I am talking of good only.
Indian man (3): Satya... (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (break) ...is not God?
Indian man (3): Lord Kṛṣṇa is not God.
Indian man (2): According to him.
Indian man (3): Lord Kṛṣṇa was the greatest man ever born. He was not God.
Indian man (2): You see, he has got the principles of Ārya-samāj. Because he is... "Everybody is God." That is his... They are brainwashed. Brainwash is there.
Prabhupāda: What is God? Let us have, understand.
Indian man (3): God has no form.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Indian man (3): Why? Because that is a principle.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Indian man (3): That's the principle.
Prabhupāda: That is your principle.
Indian man (3): He has given all the principles and these principles they taught us...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You say God has no form.
Indian man (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is your principle, not others'. You cannot say that is the principle. That is your principle.
Indian man (3): But, sir, there are certain principles laid down.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Indian man (3): And He Himself also cannot break those principles.
Prabhupāda: What is this principle? You have got form, and God has no form?
Indian man (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: What God has done, fault?
Indian man (3): If He will take form, then He is just a...
Prabhupāda: That is your word.
Indian man (2): That is what we are.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is your word.
Indian man (2): According to philosophy. It is not my philosophy...
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is your philosophy.
Indian man (2): It is not my philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Because just like you say, "God has no form," we say, "God has form." That is your philosophy.
Indian man (3): Then we have to find out.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then we have to discuss whether God has form or no form. That will be philosophy. That will be philosophy. If you say, "God has no form," if I say, "God has form," then I don't fol...
Indian man (3): God is sarva-vyāpaka. He cannot be sarva-vyāpaka if He takes form.
Prabhupāda: No, that is your thinking. You do not know what is meant by sarva-vyāpaka.
Indian man (4): Sarva-vyāpaka means everywhere
Prabhupāda: That you do not know how... Just like the sun is sarva-vyāpaka. Is it not?
Indian man (3): What is that?
Prabhupāda: Sun, the sunshine, yes, it is... We call now it is day. Just hear. This is day because the sunlight is there. At night we don't say it is day. Is it not?
Indian man (3): "We" means actually...
Prabhupāda: Any of... Every one of us.
Indian man (3): When we don't see, then we say that it is not there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Indian man (3): Sun is not... Sun, of course, is there, but light is not there.
Prabhupāda: Hear. The light... As soon as the light is there, you understand the sun is there. Is it not?
Indian man (3): Yes, sun is there.
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the light is coming? From the sun. But you see the sun has form. So from the form the light is coming. So the light is sarva-vyāpaka
Indian man (3): If it is sarva-vyāpaka...
Prabhupāda: Let me finish. Light is sarva-vyāpaka.
Indian man (3): But if there is some obstruction, then it cannot...
Prabhupāda: We have no question of obstruction. Even there is obstruction...
Indian man (2): Obstruction will be by you only.
Indian man (3): Not by me only. (laughter) No, not by me.
Indian man (2): What is the independence mean? You can go up to Him.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Light is there. If you close your eyes there is no light. That is another thing. But light is there. Everyone understand now it is day.
Indian man (3): That light is from God.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (3): Sun has no...
Indian man (2): Let him finish.
Prabhupāda: Let me finish. Your "God has no form"—I am trying to explain to that. Now, you say, your reason, the sarva-vyāpaka. Sarva-vyāpaka, I am giving this example. The sunlight is sarva-vyāpaka, but wherefrom the sunlight is coming, it has got a form. So the sarva-vyāpaka, that energy is there. That is called Brahman. That is coming from Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (3): But what is that sun?
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is example. It is example that this sarva-vyāpaka-prakāśa is coming from the sun globe. So sun globe is localized. Everyone can see. And this prakāśa is coming from Him. Similarly, the sarva-vyāpaka energy is extended everywhere, but it is coming from Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (3): Coming, right. But that has no form.
Prabhupāda: Why no form? You can see.
Indian man (3): But you see the mat..., a material.
Prabhupāda: It is a matter... You have no idea without matter. How you can say of spirit? You have no idea.
Indian man (3): God is not matter.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you cannot...
Indian man (3): This is not a direct...
Prabhupāda: You are accepting God is impersonal because He is sarva-vyāpaka. Why? Sarva-vyāpaka... He can be... You are thinking in your own way, that you are sitting here; you are not sarva-vyāpaka. You are vyāpaka here only, so you are thinking God is like you.
Indian man (3): No, I am not thinking like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your defect.
Indian man (3): On the contrary, that is...
Prabhupāda: Aiye aiye. That is your defect. You are comparing God with your existence.
Indian man (3): I am not comparing with God.
Prabhupāda: Then... I am giving you example that instead of sun having form, he is sarva-vyāpaka. That is my point. The sun and the sunlight is nondifferent. The sunlight is sarva-vyāpaka, but the sun is localized. That is my point.
Indian man (3): Sun is localized, but what is sun, first of all? Sun is a creation of God.
Yaśomatīnandana: He's giving an example.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. If creation of God can act like this, that it...
Indian man (3): Creation of God means some matter.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right.
Indian man (3): Now, God has no matter.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You see, God... If creation of God can act like this, that he is localized, at the same time he is sarva-vyāpaka and God cannot be localized and sarva-vyāpaka?
Indian man (3): How can God be localized?
Prabhupāda: Then God is under your rule?
Indian man (3): No, sir. Not under my rule. It is His rule that He...
Prabhupāda: No, no. We can see the creation of God. It is localized, at the same time sarva-vyāpaka. And God, according to him, cannot be localized. He is simply sarva-vyāpaka. Why? Why? The creator can create something that he is localized, at the same time sarva-vyāpaka, and the creator cannot be localized and at the same time sarva-vyāpaka?
Indian man (3): Sir, if there is...
Prabhupāda: No, first of all let us settle this.
Indian man (2): First of all let us settle this one thing
Prabhupāda: Settle this. I create something which has got so power that it is localized, at the same time sarva-vyāpaka. And I myself, I cannot be sarva-vyāpaka. What is this logic?
Indian man (3): The sun rays are not actually... When there is hindrance, it cannot be on the other side.
Prabhupāda: No, hin... There is question of hindrance. I am seeing as it is. That is another thing.
Indian man (2): Hindrance is already there, as I described before. (laughter) Swamijī, my request is that the world is divided into two main things. One, some people believe, a group, believe that world is formless. Some say world has got a form. So instead of entering to this controversy, why we should not agree that whatever you...?
Prabhupāda: No, this is not controversy. This is fact, that God is... That is... We learn from śāstra,
- vadanti tat tattva-vidas
- tattva yaj jñānam advayam
- brahmeti paramātmeti
- bhagavān iti śabdyate
- (SB 1.2.11)
The Absolute Truth is manifested in three ways: impersonal Brahman, and all-pervading Paramātmā, and Personality of Godhead-brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate—but they are one and the same. This is the verdict of the śāstra. So we can understand from this example that the sun is localized. Everyone can see. At the same time, sunshine is all-pervading, and within the sun globe there is a predominating deity. He is a person. Similarly, originally God is person, and then, when He expands, all-pervasive, that is Paramātmā. And when He expands by His energy, that is Brahman. This is understanding. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti. Now somebody, they finish their business by realizing the impersonal Brahman, and somebody finishes his business by realizing the localized Paramātmā, yogis. Jñānīs, yogis. And the bhaktas, they come to the real, original source of everything, Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference.
Indian man (4): Swamiji, I want to question whether the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the same type of consciousness which is experienced by the devotees as that divine type of consciousness. Is it a divine consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness means divine. Kṛṣṇa means divine. Kṛṣṇa means divine.
Indian man (4): So that is the same.
Prabhupāda: But foolish people think Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). Only mūḍhas take Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is always His complete spirit.
Indian man (4): We like His smiling face too much, Lord Kṛṣṇa's smiling face, always smiling. All forms of God we have seen, but His...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is always smiling because Kṛṣṇa is ānandamayo abhyāsāt. That is the feature of God. He is ānandamaya.
Indian man (4): But (unclear) even in Mahābhārata at the time of chariot, while sitting on the chariot of Arjuna, He was always smiling. There was a lot of battle going on, but He never lost His...
Prabhupāda: Temper.
Indian man (4): Temper.
Indian man (5): Yes. How do you think about somebody in last few days defeated the existence of Mahābhārata itself? They say it is a...
Prabhupāda: Who is that man?
Indian man (4): They may, they may.
Prabhupāda: He has defeated?
Indian man (5): No, if they say that "There was nothing like Mahābhārata," you tell.
Indian man (3): They may say, but...
Prabhupāda: The foolish man can say anything. (Hindi) How he becomes more than all the ācāryas, this rascal?
Indian man (5): My question is...
Prabhupāda: Your question is that he has proved. What he has proved?
Indian man (5): No, no. His point of saying is that...
Prabhupāda: Whatever he says, he is saying nonsense. That's it.
Indian man (5): No, no, the point is that it is a story to teach people the rules and regulations of war. He wrote... It is a hypothesis during which the people are taught the morals of the life. No such war actually existed. There is already...
Prabhupāda: That is his foolishness. He's a rascal.
Indian man (2): But we have seen a person rejecting his own father: "My father was also (unclear)."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore a rascal can say like that. A rascal can say like that.
Indian man (2): Somebody said that "No, my mother's name should come after my name, or father's name."
Prabhupāda: Mūḍha. Therefore they have been called mūḍhas. Na mā duṣkṛtino mūḍhā prapadyante narādhamāḥ. They have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā as duṣkṛtinaḥ. First of all they are very, very sinful. They have got merit, but sinful merit, duṣkṛtinaḥ. Kṛti means meritorious, but duḥ, duṣkṛtina. So on account of their (being) duṣkṛtinaḥ they are mūḍhas. They cannot understand what is scripture, what is God, what is Kṛṣṇa. They cannot understand. It is not possible.
Indian man (3): Yes, I at least understand what is God.
Prabhupāda: You want to save yourself.
Indian man (2): His definition is different, absolutely. According to his...
Prabhupāda: No, God cannot be defined differently. God is one.
Indian man (2): But can God be defined? We haven't got a definition of God. I challenge you.
Indian man (3): (Hindi)
Indian man (2): You cannot. Intellectually, you cannot analyse things.
Prabhupāda: No, intellectual level you can. That is definition of God. Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇa. Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya... Parāśara Muni has given. That is God just like you try to understand one thing. We have got some experience that there is a rich man, but that rich man cannot say that "I am the richest man in the world." That he cannot say. So this richness is one opulence, but you cannot find anyone who can say that "I am the richest man." That is not possible. But if you find somebody who can say like that, and if he proves, then he is God. Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya. That Kṛṣṇa says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram: (BG 5.29) "I am the proprietor of everything," that Kṛṣṇa says. And He proved when He was present. He proved it. So therefore He is God.
Indian man (2): I say, in foreign countries, Swamijī, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot see?
Indian man (2): Yes, we want to know from Your Holiness...
Prabhupāda: You cannot see? Who are they if they are not...
Indian man (2): Yes, yes, yes. We are very much... We take a pride. Actually we take a pride that Your Holiness like you had gone for America and the world and spread our message of our Indian philosophy. We are very much proud about it. Though we do not give much response to your mission here or in India because it's our home. Home is for the neighbor only(?). That is the difficulty. Tulsi das has written (Hindi). Swami Vivekananda went there, and he was honored there, and thereafter our people honored him because other people honored him.
Prabhupāda: All right. Let us go. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just... (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Break) (Hindi conversation)