Mādhavānanda: Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Could it be said, then, that we are transmigrating even while in this life?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mādhavānanda: From boyhood to youth.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is transmigration? Transmigration means the first body you lose; you enter a second body, a third body, fourth. So your childhood body is not existing. Therefore you are in different body.
Mādhavānanda: So that way anyone can understand.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the way of understanding. And Kṛṣṇa says, the authority, that "This is the way." It is not that I have manufactured some philosophy. No. The most powerful authority, He says. So where is the position to deny it? Who can deny it, Kṛṣṇa's statement? If somebody denies, then he is a rascal. That's all. Therefore we say that we have no difficulty to find out a rascal. As soon as one denies this, Kṛṣṇa's statement, he is a rascal. That's it. Anyone who does not accept the transmigration of the soul, he is a rascal, that's all, immediately. So easily understood, and still they will not understand. What is the possible objection?
Satsvarūpa: Well, that example can be understood, but for the materialist, he doesn't see how it applies to afterlife, one takes another body.
Prabhupāda: Why, why he does not?
Satsvarūpa: Because he can't perceive. He can perceive that he has changed from child to old man, but he can't perceive what is going to happen after death. So who knows?
Prabhupāda: But he cannot perceive that we, at night we change this body and go to another body when we dream? He cannot perceive? Your body, this body, is laid down on the bed, and you go away, and you are thinking that you are in Europe and America or in the sky or so many things. So what is that?
Satsvarūpa: Yes, while its happening he can't perceive it.
Prabhupāda: But that is happening. He is seeing. He is a man. He is seeing. Why he cannot perceive? What is the difficulty? What is the answer, anyone?
Mādhavānanda: He is in illusion.
Prabhupāda: Illusion. You are seeing an illusion? Some tiger is coming. You are crying, "Save me, save me." It is illusion. This body is also illusion. But you are affected. That means you are experiencing. How you can say that you are not perceiving? And when in dream you see your beloved or woman and man, there is no, nothing such thing, but still, there is discharge. Why? Why you are not perceiving? How you can say that you are not perceiving. It is perceiving. What is the answer? You are perceiving every night...
Satsvarūpa: Yes, in dreams.
Prabhupāda: ...that you leave this body, you accept another body and do something else which you see. If that is illusion, then this is also illusion. Because in daytime you forget that night activities, and at night you forget the day activities. So this is also illusion. So therefore you are in illusion. That's a fact, day and night, day and night. That is called māyā. This is also māyā. But they have accepted this as fact. The gross illusion they have taken as fact. This is also illusion. You are thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian," "German." What is that? By one kick of nature you are out, the cat and dog. This is also illusion. What is not illusion?
Haṁsadūta: So there are also living beings, they accept the subtle material as illusion just as we are accepting this gross.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is going on. Therefore the problem is where is my real life? That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When one understands, the rascal, that "This is also illusion. This is also illusion. Then where is my actual life?" that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Haṁsadūta: I was hearing some statement about, from mediumship, of people who had died and they are living on a subtle platform, and they don't actually know that they have died. They are so absorbed that they mentally...
Prabhupāda: That is all... They may think like that, but this is practical thing. Try to understand that in daytime you are illusioned by this gross body, and at night you are illusioned by the subtle body. So both of them are illusion. Therefore if you are intelligent, your inquiry should be "What is my real life?" That is intelligence, "What I am?" That is... Sanātana Gosvāmī placed before... "What I am?" Ke āmi. That "I am simply hovering in illusion, gross and subtle. Then what is my real position? What I am?" That is real philosophy. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is called Brahman. When I am Brahman", so that is the beginning: "What I am? What is my position?" That illusion is going on. So the material life means he is in illusion for millions and millions of years. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgya... So out of many such millions and millions living entities, one becomes conscious, that "What is my real life?" That is awakening. Guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya (CC Madhya 19.151). Then he begins his devotional life: "My real life is this."
Mādhavānanda: Then as soon as one begins to understand who he is, the transmigration stops.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that understanding? His understanding is that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. So let me surrender to Kṛṣṇa as He wants and serve Him." This is life. As soon as he is on this platform, then he is out of illusion. And if he is perfect, then just after giving up this body he goes to Kṛṣṇa. This is the process. If he does not fall from this transcendental service of Kṛṣṇa, then immediately after death he is transferred. Just like we are transferred from this gross body to subtle body, similarly, after death a devotee is transferred immediately to the Kṛṣṇa, where Kṛṣṇa is there, either within this material world or... They are first of all given chance to go to Kṛṣṇa. In any brahmāṇḍa there is Kṛṣṇa. Nitya-līlā is going on. So he is born there. Then actually plays with Kṛṣṇa, dance with Kṛṣṇa, talks with Kṛṣṇa. Apprenticeship. This is also apprenticeship here. So is there any difficulty of perception?
Satsvarūpa: No.
Prabhupāda: Why you said that "I have no perception?" There is perception, every day, every night. How you can say there is no perception? The perception is so strong, sometimes one dreaming some horrible position, he cannot more sleep. The sleep breaks. So why there is no perception? He is so much troubled that breaks. He immediately comes to the safe side of this gross body.
Devotee (1): Yes, takes shelter.
Prabhupāda: So how do you say there is no perception? So this transmigration of soul takes place that... Just like in daytime we are in this body, nighttime we leave this body and work with the subtle body, so transmigration soul takes place—with that subtle body he enters the womb of suitable mother, and this body is left. And there he grows again this gross body and then comes out. Is it difficult to understand? That is not illusion. That's fact. And death means that you left this gross body and the period you do not come out in another gross body, that period is called death. That period is called death.
Satsvarūpa: So you are dead for about seven months.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be, according to the body you are getting. There are 8,400,000 species of body. So according to your work you will be allowed to enter into the womb of mother. How can you check it? Where is your scientist? That is nature's law, automatically. Just like if you are infected, you get this disease. That's all. There is no need of mother nature will take personal... No, the rules are so fine that you will get automatically. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). The Kṛṣṇa's energies are so powerful and subtle that it takes everything takes automatically. One set up, then after that, after that, after that, after that—everything is there. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). Everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. You have no control. You are simply under the grip of material nature. Everything, whatever you are doing, immediately it is being recorded automatically. Just like automatic printing press. You simply push the paper, and magazine comes. If you can manufacture some machine, you rascal, then how subtle machine can work on under the supervision of the Supreme?
Mādhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, once you said that if we could remember our past life, we would go crazy because it is so frustrating to continue transmigrating.
Prabhupāda: Even in this life we experience so much frustration. Even if we remember now, we become horrible: "Oh, I was in this state of life, I was in this state of life." Immediately shudder. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has saved me." You should be obliged that Kṛṣṇa has given you shelter. You should... "Do not go again to that other platform." That is intelligence. The other day who was telling me that in Northern Pole, because there is no day, so many people commit suicide. Is it not?
Mādhavānanda: Sweden has the highest suicide rate.
Prabhupāda: Because that is horrible condition for any intelligent man. There is no day. Why they commit suicide in Sweden?
Mādhavānanda: Because it is horrible condition.
Prabhupāda: On account of that?
Mādhavānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh, just see.
Mādhavānanda: So I hear.
Prabhupāda: So just see how Kṛṣṇa's management, nature's management, there is day and night, day and night, day and night. Otherwise it is horrible. If it is all simply day, it is horrible also. And if it is simply night, that is also horrible. So He is so kind He has given day and night, day and night. So do not be misled by this illusion as others are being. Stick to Kṛṣṇa to save. That is the only... Is Stockholm also like that?
Mādhavānanda: Yes. Who is from Stockholm? This is what I heard.