Prabhupāda: The designations are on the material platform according to the quality. But in the spiritual platform it is transcendental to material qualities. So when one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious there is no more distinction.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Swiss Man (2): (French)
Yogeśvara: He says this seems to be somewhat different from the traditional Hindu practice, since in the Manu-saṁhitā, for example, śūdras are not to be instructed.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but we do not keep him śūdra. A devotee is no longer śūdra. We are creating brāhmaṇas. Just like these Europeans and Americans. They, according to Manu-saṁhitā, they are mlecchas, yavanas. But we are not keeping them mlecchas and yavanas. Just like these European and American boys. They are accepting the Vedic regulatives principles: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. So they are no more śūdras or caṇḍālas. They are brāhmaṇas.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Prabhupāda: So it is said, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), according to quality and work. When one is educated in the quality of brāhmaṇa, Vaiṣṇava, and he works like a brāhmaṇa, he is no longer śūdra or caṇḍāla or yavana. He is brāhmaṇa or Vaiṣṇava.
Swiss Man (2): (French)
Yogeśvara: He says, in a sense we're something like the Buddhists because the Buddhists also don't take account of this, of the caste system.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Buddhist or anyone. Just like a person, when he is not educated in medical science he is not a medical man, but when he is properly educated in the medical science and he practices as a medical man, then he is a medical man. So you take it from Buddhism, or Hinduism; it doesn't matter. The thing is, consideration is, guṇa-karma. One must be qualified and he must work. Then he is elevated.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Swiss Man (2): (French)
Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying, what we're saying is that spiritually, everyone is equal, which is actually the same as the Christian idea.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritually, not materially. Materially there must be distinction. Materially there must be distinction. But spiritually there is no distinction.
Swiss Man (2): (French)
Yogeśvara: What was his first point?
Guru-gaurāṅga: The point was that in Christianity everyone can become Christian whereas it seems in this only some can become brāhmaṇa. So he is interested what is the path to becoming brāhmaṇa. How does one become brāhmaṇa?
Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa means purified. Just like in Christianity also there are ten commandments. If you do not obey the ten commandments, how you can become Christian?
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: First of all, the quality. The quality of Christian is that he must obey the ten commandments. If he does not obey, then where is his Christianity? That is stated, guṇa-karma: by quality and work one becomes Christian or Hindu or Muslim. There must be the quality. But when the spirituality develops either from Christianity or Hindu or Muslim—it doesn't matter—then there is. Find out that verse, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Read it. This is the ideal of equality. Find out.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa:
- sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
- yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
- ahaituky apratihatā
- yayātmā suprasīdati
- (SB 1.2.6)
"The supreme occupation, dharma, for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self."
Prabhupāda: So our, this movement is to create lover of God. It does not matter whether he follows Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism or this ism or that ism. One must be lover of God, and that is stated in the Bhāgavata. That is first-class religion which turns the followers to become lover of God, that's all.
M. Roche-dieu: In Christianity, mystics would emphasize the same thing.
Prabhupāda: That is the essence of religion, to know God and to love Him. That's all.
M. Roche-dieu: Yes. Love God and love the man too.
Prabhupāda: Why man? Simply love God; then you will love everyone. Because God is the center, God is the father of everyone, so if you love the father, automatically you love the sons. It is not required that you simply love this son and not that son. That is not love of Godhead. "I love human being but I do not love the poor animals. Send them to the slaughterhouse." This is not love of God. So in the Bhagavad-gītā, you will find, God says,
- sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
- mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ
- tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir
- ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
- (BG 14.4)
So God is the Supreme Father. It is not that He is father of the human being. He is father of the animals, He is father of the trees, He is father of the animals...
M. Roche-dieu: Living being.
Prabhupāda: Living, any living. We are all living beings. We are in different dresses. Just like you are European; you have got a different dress. I am an Indian; I have got a different dress. But dress is not consideration. You are a human being; I am a human being. Similarly, all the living entities, they are dressed in 8,400,000's of dresses. But they are living being. And all the living beings are part and parcel of God.
M. Roche-dieu: (French) Life is a whole view, and there is no division between animals and man.
Prabhupāda: Spiritually advanced man, God conscious, there is no such distinction that "Here is an animal; here is a man." He sees that spirit soul is there in the animal and in the man, in the tree, in the plant, in the aquatics, the same spirit soul. Read that.
Nitāi:
- sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
- mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ
- tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir
- ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
- (BG 14.4)
"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father."
Prabhupāda: Yes. The father is God, and they are all sons. But they have, they have been given different types of dress according to karma. So when actually one loves God, he loves all of them as brothers, not that only human being. That is not love of God. Then he does not know what is God. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll not find a single sentence where it is recommended that "Only love the human being." There is no such thing.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Frenchman: (French)
Yogeśvara: He's asking, "Well, that's all right. But this love that we have for God, only man can give it. An animal can't love God. A tree can't love God."
Prabhupāda: But you can love animal. You are not animal. Animal... Just like we are discussing about theosophy because we are grown up, and the child, he cannot understand. That does not mean we shall be unkind to the children. He may be ignorant, the animal may be ignorant, but I am not ignorant. How can I kill the animal?
Swiss Man (1): (French)
Yogeśvara: He's asking, "How do we see ourselves and how is it that we intentionally distinguish ourselves by dressing differently, by having a different presentation than the rest of society."
Guru-gaurāṅga: Given the fact that all others, they are loving God too, the same principle, Christianity...
Prabhupāda: No, symptoms must be there. If you love God, then you should love everything of God. You cannot distinguish that "These are human beings. They should be given service, and the animals should be sent to the slaughterhouse." That is not love of God. That means he does not know what is God. He is still unaware of God. Just like father. Father has got ten sons. Out of them, one is very intelligent or two are very intelligent; others are fools. And if the intelligent sons propose to the father, "Father, these are useless sons. Let me kill," will the father agree? So God is father of all living entities. He is providing food for the animal, for the man, because He is father. There is, in the jungle of Africa elephants. They are eating at a time hundred kilos. The father is providing. And the ant, a small ant, is eating one grain of sugar. He is providing. Within the hole of your room there are millions of ants. The father is providing food for them. That is God. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That one is providing all necessities of life to everyone, all living entities. That is God. So if I know God, then I can know also that all of them are sons of God and God is providing all their necessities of life. What right I have got to kill them?
Swiss Man (1): (French)
Yogeśvara: (translates) He says, "Yes, but we see that among the animals there are certain, many species that do eat meat."
Prabhupāda: Among the animals. But you are not animal.
M. Roche-dieu: They do not eat anything else.
Prabhupāda: But you are not animal. Animals among... The tiger, he is destined to eat meat. But you are not animal. You are human being. Why should you eat? Why you should imitate an animal? Then why there is religion?
Frenchman: (French)