Lord Brockway: ...I would like to ask. I do not belong to any church. I'm attracted to eastern religions and the Hindu religion because they are pantheist, they have a sense of belonging to everyone and everything in all time, and because of that spiritual feeling, service to all. And I find that better than church theology because church theology is so often thinking entirely of personal salvation rather than service to all. And for those reasons I'm attracted to eastern religions. I think the second comment I would make is this, that you have said that if the world is to move towards brotherhood it must be by a recognition of the fatherhood of God, and that all men are the sons of God.
Prabhupāda: Not only men, all living entities.
Lord Brockway: Oh, yes, I mean men in the human aspect. Men and women are the sons and daughters, the children of God. I would say two things about that, that I think that those who sincerely have that conviction can be inspired to serve the coming of the brotherhood of mankind, but in experience I would not limit it to those who have that experience. And I find in life that many people who do not have religious convictions at all have a humanist conception which leads them to be very active for peace in the world, a human brotherhood, compassion, and all those characteristics which you have described as the capacities of those who share your religion. And in life they will express that even if they have the deeper recognition which you have described. I think the third thing that I would say about what you have said is this: it may be, I do not know, that there is a form of life after death. I don't know. I think if there is, the best preparation for it is service to one's fellow human beings in our present life.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but one thing is...
Lord Brockway: Yes?
Prabhupāda: ...that whatever service you render, because this world is of three qualities, the service will be, of course, of three qualities: goodness, passion, and ignorance. These are described there.
Lord Brockway: Yes, I listened with a very great interest and almost complete agreement...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So...
Lord Brockway: ...to what has been read.
Prabhupāda: ...what kind of service we shall give? I can give you one example. I have seen it practically, that in Calcutta one neighbor, neighboring gentleman, he is (has) a daughter-in-law, he (she) was beating her young son. So I inquired, "Why that daughter-in-law...?" Because her father-in-law was of my age, little older. "So why daughter-in-law is punishing her son? What is the fault?" Naturally, young, a small child. So the report came that the, one of the child, one of the boy, was suffering from typhoid, fever, and another boy stole from the kitchen some parāṭā and gave him to eat. And when the mother came into knowledge, she was punishing, that "Why you have given this parāṭā?" Because in typhoid, no solid food is taken. So he cannot... But the suffering child was thinking that "Mother is not giving me food." So he requested his younger brother, "You give me some food." So he does not know. He has given the food. But the result is that he is being punished. So without knowing how to give service, sometimes we may be punished. What kind of service we shall give? (indistinct) example. So there are three kinds of services: goodness, passion, and ignorance. If we...
Lord Brockway: Goodness,...?
Śyāmasundara:Passion.
Pradyumna: Passion.
Prabhupāda: Passion, yes.
Śyāmasundara: Ignorance.
Prabhupāda: And ignorance. If we give service in ignorance, without knowing what is what, that kind of service may lead us to become punished. So we must know what kind of service we shall give. So real suffering of the society, human society, or any society you take, real suffering is, because the living entity has forgotten God, so he is being punished in different way by the material nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). So many ways. But everyone is being punished. At least, the three kinds... Why three kinds? That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, that this is also punishment, repetition of birth and death. This is also punishment. Because we are eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). We are spirit soul, we are eternal. So our, this constant change of body, birth and death, that is also punishment. Because nobody wants to die. Because he is eternal. How he'll like to die? He wants to keep his eternal position, but he, because he's criminal... Just like one man is condemned to die, murderer. So he has to die. But he wants to protect himself, placing himself in the court, "How to save? How to save?" So that is our natural tendency, that we do not want to die. Why? Because we are eternal. We have got the prerogative. So if... Anyone does not want to die. Anyone does not want to take birth even. Now we have forgotten. Otherwise, in the womb of the mother, everyone knows that we are kept in such a way, in a packed, compact water bag, without any facility to move, not only for one day, two day, but ten months. Medical science knows, everyone knows. And at that time there are worms in the womb of the mother. They're taking the advantage, delicate skin. They also bite. And he cannot make any protest. He moves sometimes. The child moves. These are the sufferings. But we do not take care. If I have to take birth again, then I have to go, again enter into the womb of the mother, and, to develop my body and in such precarious condition, the body will develop. So there is suffering. There is suffering of birth, and at the time of death there is suffering. And between birth and death, there is duration of life, there is disease, there is old age, and what to speak of other sufferings. That we may not mention. But at least these four sufferings are there. Therefore the best service is to save him from this suffering. That is the service.
Lord Brockway: Yes, two things. First, when I speak of service, I don't just mean individual goodness to others. I think the service to the world today means an understanding of the causes of war, of the causes of poverty. It means an intellectual analysis and seeking to end what are the causes of war and poverty and suffering and crime. And it isn't only individual goodness. It's a combination of a desire, which is good, with a knowledge of how to achieve it. That would be the first thing that I would say. And the second thing I would say is this, and this may surprise you. I would quite welcome death. I've no fear of it at all.
Prabhupāda: Because you are pure.
Lord Brockway: I, uh... (Prabhupāda laughs)
Prabhupāda: You are little advanced.