Prabhupāda: There is also the brush, the paint, but it is so perfect that just like you cannot see how the other typewriter is striking. You cannot say it is automatically striking. There is arrangement. But this arrangement you do not understand. Therefore you are foolish, you are thinking that this typewriter is striking automatically. It is not automatically. Here the other typewriter it is stroken and there is electric arrangement and it is striking. So you have to understand like... That is sura. And asura, they will say, "No, there is no God. It is taking automatically, it is going on," This is foolishness. The asura means foolish, first-class foolish, that's all. Why it has become so? That is explained here. That they do not know how to behave, nāpi cācāraḥ. Na satyaṁ teṣu vidyate, neither they know what is the actual truth. They are defective themself and they are explaining in the defective way that so many rascal chemists they say that the chemical evolution is the cause of life. What is this nonsense? Chemical evolution, you get the chemicals and make a experiment and produce life. Then your proposal is all right that by chemical evolution there is life. No, that is not possible. You have got all the chemicals.
Defect (Conv. 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: You have to see... That... Vedic injunction says, śāstra-cakśuṣā. Śāstra-cakśuṣā: "Your eyes should be the śāstra." There is another crude example. Just like who is your father? How do you understand? Through the vibration of the mother. The mother says, "He is your father." You accept it. Otherwise there is no experiment. So things which are beyond your perception, beyond your defective senses, that should not be speculated. Na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. Acintyā khalv ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. These are the injunction. What is beyond your perception, beyond your speculation, don't waste your time so-called argument and logic. What is argument? Mother says, "He is your father." Where is the argument? You cannot apply any argument.
Prabhupāda: Social platform, there must be four classes of men, divisions. Just like this body is divided into four departments—the brain, the arm, the belly and the leg—so the society should be divided into four divisions: the brain division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. Leg division means ordinary worker. And all of them should cooperate for keeping the body fit. If this system is followed, then the whole human society will be working very nicely. At the present moment there is no brain; therefore everything is chaotic. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is creating some brain. If they follow, the whole society will be happy. A man may be very stout and strong, but if he has no good brain, it is useless. Similarly, at the present moment there is education, there is money and everything, but because there is no brain, the whole thing is in chaotic condition. The first defect is, in education, that the present leader, he does not know what is the aim of life. Neither the people know that there is reincarnation or transmigration of the soul after death. They do not know. So basically they are brainless. So they cannot give guidance, and therefore the whole society is in chaotic condition.
Prabhupāda: The difference is transcendence is beyond our mind, bodily activities, mental activities or intelligence. The European philosophers and transcendentalists, they do not know actually what is transcendence. They understand that there is something, but they do not know what it is. Therefore they speculate by their imperfect senses. Gradually it becomes craziness. Therefore you find that defect.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): So do you mean to say that this is just a contemplative thing that doesn't really have a active influence upon the society to change the different...?
Prabhupāda: No, we must first of all understand that our senses are imperfect. Just like we are sitting in this room. We have got our eyes, but we cannot see what is there, going on, beyond this wall. The sun is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth, and we are seeing just like a disc. So the eyelid is just near the eyes, but we cannot see what is the eyelids. If the light is off, we cannot see. So we can see under certain condition. Then what is the value of our seeing? If we, even if we manufacture telescope, that is also manufactured by the imperfect senses, so it is also not perfect.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that just like you give the example of the dictaphone, but it seems like if he just recorded the knowledge within his brain and then repeated it, that he would just be like an instrument, and he might not really be conscious of the knowledge himself. He'd just be transmitting it. It seems like... He thinks that's a defect because he's not really, he might not be conscious.
Prabhupāda: No, he doesn't require. Just like I am working with this dictaphone. I am not a mechanic, but my business is going on. That is required. I have read the instruction paper, that "You use this microphone like this. You put this button," and three, four instruction. So I have learned it and it is giving my business. That's all. Just like this lamp, the instruction is "Push this button," (flicks light button) and it will go, all on. So I know I will get the light. Now I am not electrician. It doesn't require. That much knowledge is sufficient. But I want the light. So the electrician says, "Just put this button in this way. Light will be there." So my business is finished.
Prabhupāda: But that you can utilize for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not for sense gratification. That is the defect. They are simply wasting time in sense gratification. If the telephone and the telegraph, television is used for propagating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is all right. But they are not doing that. We are utilizing the modern press facilities for printing Vedic scriptures. But they are utilizing the press for sex literature, Freud's philosophy. (break)
Hṛdayānanda: ...policy towards the problem of overpopulation and food shortage in the world now when the world leaders are not willing to do anything? What is our policy towards these problems?
Prabhupāda: Produce food. But you are producing bolts and nuts. You eat them. Motor tire, you are producing motor tire, bolts and nuts. You eat it. (Hṛdayānanda translates into Spanish) (laughter) The energy is spoiled, creating problem. Everyone is engaged in manufacturing motor parts.
Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He says that he was speaking about an organic... For example, if someone has a tumor in their brain, it causes irritability, anxiety, suffering and so many things. They are seeing more, there's some physical defect.
Prabhupāda: The physical defect... Just like a driver of the car, and when his car is damaged, the driver becomes very sorry that "My car is now broken, damaged," but is the driver the carriage? Sometimes a valuable car is damaged and the proprietor or the driver, he becomes very sorry, almost half-dead, "Oh, my car is lost." So this is due to his too much attraction for the car. When the machine car stops (it) does not mean the driver is damaged. But he thinks, "Now, I am finished. My car is damaged." But although he is not the car, he thinks that he is damaged. So that is mental disease. He is different from the car, but he thinks that he is damaged by the damage of the car. And if he knows correctly, that "What is that? I will get another new car," what is the cause of suffering? The driver is not the car, but on account of his too much absorption, identifying the car with him, he suffers. So if the psychiatrist informs him that "Why you are sorry? You are not the car," then he is cured. So the modern civilization defect is that he is not this body, but he does not know it. Therefore, in the Vedic literature it is said, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke: (SB 10.84.13) "Anyone is identifying himself with this body which is made of material element," yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu, "and in bodily relationship he is thinking his family is protector, his nation is protector, in this way, one who lives, he is no better than the animal." Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā... You find out this verse, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase.
Hṛdayānanda: So I'll tell you what else he said. He said that even though we may not be this body, even though we should be looking for God, still, for example, he, as a doctor, if a patient comes to him and has, for example, say, some disease, he can, within twenty-four hours, cure the disease and stop the person's suffering. And he feels that even though he may be looking for God, that does not mean that he should let someone go on suffering if he can very easily stop it.
Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not I am talking of God. I am talking of the constitutional position of the living being. That is science. So just like the same example: the driver is different from the car, but when there is some defect in the car, we are not advising that don't take care of the car. But if you simply take care of the car and don't take care of the driver, that is the basic mistake of the civilization.
Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying because this body can be used for intellectual advancement, therefore he's saying that sometimes people become so much concerned with intellectual things that they neglect their body.
Prabhupāda: It is not... It is beyond intellectual. The intellect also belong to the body. But understanding of the soul is beyond intellectual.
Prabhupāda: Then it is something like that, that the motor mechanic is interested with the motor car, but he is not interested with the welfare of the driver. But the fact is, if the driver is not in order, the car will not go. It may be well-equipped, well-engined, well-oiled, but if the driver is defective, it will create another disaster.
Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He feels that you don't understand what he's saying, that actually he does not feel that we should dedicate ourselves exclusively to the body...
Prabhupāda: I don't say exclusively. I say the first care should be taken of the driver, and taking care of the car is secondary.
Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He agrees.
Prabhupāda: So why you do not take care of the dead body? Because the driver is gone. Then who is important, the car or the driver? So that is the defect of the modern civilization. They don't take care of the driver. He is taking care of the car. So you said your, that what is the problems of human society. This is the root cause of the problems, that we are not taking care of the driver; we are simply taking care of the car. But if we take care of the driver, the driver knows how to take care of the car.
Prabhupāda: So that is the defect, that the modern civilization, they are not taking care of the spirit soul; they are simply taking care of the machine, body. Therefore the problems are there. You asked, "How to solve the problems?" The problems are there on account of this, that they are not taking care of the driver; they are simply taking care of the machine body. So if you take care of the driver, then he will remain sane, he will drive nicely, the body will not be disastrous, he will live peacefully. This is the problem. If the driver is careful, then he will not require very frequently the mechanical engineer for the car. He will keep the machine in order. If he keeps himself sane, then he keeps the machine also order.
Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She has said that you have repeatedly talked about those things which are wrong with the society. So she would like to know exactly what you mean by modern society and exactly what you feel are the problems with the society...
Prabhupāda: The modern society is not taking care of the driver; they are taking care of the car. This is the defect.
Lady (Hṛdayānanda): Also she would like to know what other societies there have been in history which did not have these problems.
Prabhupāda: The problems... In the material world this problem is always there. Sometimes it is more; sometimes it is less. Material world means ignorance of the driver. That ignorance is sometimes very big, and sometimes it is less, but ignorance is there.
Prabhupāda: Our first problem is, because we have got this material body, eating. Everyone must eat. So Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: (BG 3.14) "If there is sufficient food grains, then both man and animal, they become happy." Therefore our first religion is to produce food grain sufficiently to feed everyone. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva (BG 18.44). This matter has been entrusted to the vaiśyas. They should produce sufficient food and give protection to the cows for sufficient milk. Then the whole human society, animal society, will be happy. But we are disobeying the orders or the rules given by God. Instead of producing food, we are producing motorcars. And motor tires, motor parts. And so many other things. And therefore people are starving. The manual labor is being misused. We are disobeying the orders of God. Therefore we are unhappy. I have seen all over the world. There are enough space for producing food grains. And if we actually produce food grain, we can maintain ten times of the present population of the whole world. There is no question of scarcity because God has created everything complete. Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). There cannot be any defect in the creation of God. We have created these defects on account of our disobeying the orders of God.
Prabhupāda: Living are already there, but his desires are manifest or nonmanifest.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the living entities are there, but they stop manifesting the different bodies.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, that you cannot see him without body. That is your defect. There are so many living entities in the air. You cannot see them. That is your defect. Therefore, Vedānta-śāstra-cakśuṣā: "You should see through the śāstra, not with your so-called eyes."
Rūpānuga: Śarīram puruṣo veda.(?)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge is through śāstra, authority, not by our senses. That is not knowledge.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that explains the... Sometimes some scientists ask that "You are very sure, so sure about the 8,400,000 species."
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They ask, "How are you so much sure about 8,400,000 species?"
Prabhupāda: Because we have heard from authority. As you are asking assurance from me, so I give you the knowledge from where I have heard. You want to hear from me. I have heard from authority. That's all. What is the difficulty? Why you are asking me? You want to hear from me. So I have also heard from authority. This is the statement. You take it.
Prabhupāda: That's all. So where is the question of creation? But because we have got these material eyes, we want to see everything through this material manifestation. We are seeing that he is dead, he is alive, he is born, he is this, that...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that is the defect of the scientists. They only see the body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their defect. Therefore asses, go-kharaḥ. That is defined. Anyone who takes the body as the self, he is a go-kharaḥ, animal. And that is our protest, that "You are animal; you are passing as very learned scholar, scientist." That we want to protest. We want to expose them, that they are cheating people. They have no perfect knowledge; still, they are passing as scientist and big men and... That is our protest.
Mādhava: Can we say that the living entity is there, and that he is the one that makes the molecules and the atoms come together to form a body just like the scientists give explanation? No? We can't?
Prabhupāda: No. Because the living entity is there for the formation of his body, so many things are going on, action and reaction of the matter. That's all. That is depending on his desires. It is so subtle thing. He is desiring, and action, reaction is going on. And as soon as the living entity is not there, these action and reaction will stop. So they are trying to find out the missing thing. That missing thing is the living entity. That they do not know, foolishly. Just like a motorcar is running very nicely, and as soon as the driver goes away it stops. The machine is there, the everything is there, but this rascal mechanic, he comes, "Something is missing." And why something missing? But he does not know the missing part is the driver. He is finding out in the motorcar what is missing. The motorcar, everything is there. The hand is there, leg is there, heart is there, the intestines are there, everything is there. So they cannot explain. They say, "Now the blood has become white." Then make it red. Where is the difficulty? So they do not know what is missing; neither he'll take, I mean to say, learned instruction. That is their defect. Real thing is the driver is missing, but that they will not accept. They are so foolish, they are thinking that motorcar is running automatically.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they talk only about molecules. That everybody knows that molecules are around and it's evolving. But they don't know that there is life. They take...
Prabhupāda: That is their defect. That is their defect, we want to educate them on this point.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And on the seventh chapter there is that Prabhupāda's, that theory of acintya-śakti.
Prabhupāda: Mm.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That will be a collective effort of all the prabhus from the movement.
Prabhupāda: Yes, acintya-śakti is there, within our body.
Prabhupāda: He is the also scientist, professor of physics.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Defects and Errors in Scientific Research," it will be a title and we will find out all the mistakes that normally found in scientific research. That will be written by Mādhava Prabhu.
Prabhupāda: And add "and how to make it perfect." Find out the defects. Don't be, what is called...?
Rūpānuga: Negative.
Prabhupāda: Negative only.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, we want to bring the, our four defects in our sense perception.
Prabhupāda: Sense perception is defective.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, there are four defects.
Prabhupāda: And if you go beyond the sense perception, that is perfection.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Absolute. Then there is no more defect. Everything is perfect. That is stated, dhāmnā svena sadā nirasta-kuhakaṁ paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Nirasta-kuhakam, where there is no defect, that is vaikuṇṭha-dhāma. Dhāmnā svena nirasta-kuhakaṁ paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. The absolute truth, we offer our respectful... That is the beginning of Bhāgavatam. Nirasta-kuhakam, where these defects cannot enter. Just like sunshine, in the sun, darkness cannot enter. There is no possibility of darkness going there. Is it possible? So similarly, in Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa sūrya-sama; māyā andhakāra (CC Madhya 22.31), there is no question of defect there.
Prabhupāda: Realities... If you have no knowledge, what do you know about reality? If you have no knowledge, then what is reality, what is non-reality, how can you know? If your knowledge is imperfect, then how you can say reality? Suppose beyond this wall you cannot see, and how you can speak of the reality beyond this wall? That is misfortune. You do not see what is there clearly, and you are speaking on the reality. Your senses are defective. What do you know about reality?
Guest (1): In the spiritual level yes, we are very blind.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is reality.
Guest (1): That we believe in.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are not perfect. We can speculate only and that is not perfection. "Maybe," "perhaps," like that. No definite knowledge. The definite knowledge you can get from Kṛṣṇa, the perfect. Therefore all the ācāryas accept Kṛṣṇa. We have to follow the ācāryas, ācāryopāsanam. So in India all these ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya, they accept Kṛṣṇa the supreme absolute. Why you should not? Are you more than these ācāryas? Then? That is the defect of modern education, they manufacture education although they're imperfect. They have no the common sense that "I am imperfect, how I am manufacturing education and becoming teacher. My becoming teacher is cheating because I have no perfect knowledge." Knowledge means it must be perfect, not "maybe," "perhaps." This is not knowledge. Definite knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Nature was defective, you mean to say?
Guest (1): No, sir.
Prabhupāda: Then?
Guest (1): I mean nature's way is designed as a ecological balance of the...
Prabhupāda: Nature's... If you follow the nature's law, then everything is there. If you deviate (from) the nature's law, then that is defective. (indistinct—some guests reply all together)
Guest (1): Swamiji, nature's balance has been upset by us, us...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Therefore I say...
Guest (1): Otherwise there would not be that many human beings here. It was all the time checked by nature's forces. We have just constrained nature by our efforts.
Prabhupāda: So that is, that is my point that nature is doing. As soon as you violate nature, then you become defective. That is... Therefore one should live natural life.
Prabhupāda: Therefore in Islam religion the form is rejected because it will come to that. As soon as they think of form, they think of this material form, beautiful face of woman. That is degradation. Therefore we are strict not to conceive material form. That is Vedic conception. Apāni-pādaḥ javano grahītā: "He has no legs and no hands." This is... means denying the form. And next he says, the Vedas say, javano grahītā: "He can accept whatever you offer to Him." That means God has no material form, but He has form; otherwise how He can accept? How He can understand my love? So therefore in the original Islamism the form is not accepted. So that is Vedic description, form and formless. Formless means no material form, and form means spiritual form, simultaneous. Just like I am, you are. I am within the body, but I am not this body. This form not I am. But wherefrom the form of the body came into existence? Because I have got form. The sweater has got hand because I have got hand. The sweater is the covering. If I haven't got form, then how the sweater has got hand, the pant has got leg? So the pant practically is not the leg. The real leg is within the pant. Similarly, this is not my form; this is like pant, leg of the pant or hand of the coat. Real form is within, asmin dehe. That is not material form. If the real form I could see, you could see, then there was no controversy, the spirit. But they cannot see. Therefore they say "formless." If it is formless, then how the outer form comes out? How it can be? The tailor makes the coat because the man has got form. As the coat has got hands, so it is concluded that the man for whom the coat is made, he has got form. How you can say without form? The difficulty is that we can see the form of the coat, but we cannot see the form of the man. That is my defect with the eyes, not that the God is formless. God is not formless.
Prabhupāda: Servant. God is supreme, we are all subordinate. God is maintaining us just like father maintains. So it is the duty of the son to be obedient to the father, to act according to his order. Then everything is perfect. At the present moment on account of this bodily concept of life every one of us thinking nationality and duty of nation, duty of the community, duty of the family, so many duties. But actually we, being spiritual, our only duty is to serve God. We are serving; everyone is serving. That is our constitutional position, to serve. But at the present moment we are serving māyā, illusion, and we have to be trained up to serve the Supreme Being. Then our life is perfect. (break) ...at the present moment, although there are many religious system, they have no clear conception of God, although religion means to approach God. There is no religion throughout the whole world which is not connected with the word God. So religion means to understand God. But if we have no clear conception of God, then the religion is defective. Do you admit it or not? Religion means to understand God or God's laws. That is religion. But if we do not understand what is God, then that religion is also defective. So far our position is, we are approaching directly God through His agent, and our conception of God is there in the temple worship or our working for God. But we have got no vague idea of God. We have got complete idea: Kṛṣṇa. You want to speak anything?
Young man: What is the Kṛṣṇa conscious outlook on other world religions?
Prabhupāda: They have got simply an idea that there is God, but what is that God, they have no clear conception. Just like I asked, "What is the conception of God in Islam?" You could not give us. You simply described some of His activities.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, Islam religion, (indistinct) reject it (indistinct). As soon as they think of form, they think of this material form, beautiful face of woman. That is degradation. Therefore, we are strict not to conceive material form. That is Vedic conception. Apāni-pādo javano grahitā. "He has no legs, no hands." This is denying the form. Next he says, Vedas says, javana grahitā. "He can accept whatever you offer to Him." That means He has, God has, no material form, but He has form, otherwise how He can accept it? How I can understand by love? So, therefore the original Islam the form is not accepted. That is Vedic description, form and formless. Formless means no material form and form means spiritual form, simultaneous. Just like I am, you are, I am within the body, but I am not this body. This form, I am not I am, but what from the form of the body has come into existence? Because I have got form. The sweater has got hand, because I have got hand. The sweater is the covering. If I haven't got form, then how the sweater has got hand, the pant has got leg? But the pant practically is not the leg, the real leg is within the pant. Similarly, this is not my form, this is like pant, leg of the pant or hand of the coat. Real form is within. Asmin dehe. That is not material form. If the real form I could see, you could see, then there would be no controversy, but they cannot see. Therefore, they say "formless". If it is formless then how the outward form comes about? How it can be? The tailor makes the coat because the man has got form. As the coat has got hand, so it is concluded that the man for whom the coat is made he has got form. How you can say without form? The difficulty is that we can see the form of the coat but we cannot see the form of the man. That is my defect in the eyes, not that the God is formless. God is not formless.
Prabhupāda: Then what you can change?
Viṣṇujana: But they can give you drugs to make death so that you don't feel it.
Madhudviṣa: Yeah, you can die in your sleep.
Prabhupāda: That is, means another death. You check death by death. That's all. These are all rascals. You are not yet convinced that these, they are rascals. That is your defect.
Pañcadraviḍa: I went to see my grandfather when he was dying. They said, "We have a nice arrangement. He's going to die in two weeks. Don't tell him. He'll die peacefully in his sleep." That was their arrangement.
Prabhupāda: Coma.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Many of the scientists actually believe in God, and they think that by experimentation, they'll come to understand God more and more.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That we admire, that you are trying to understand God. But there is no God, and they are becoming God—that is nonsense.
Rāmeśvara: So for colonialism.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just to... Because there are other powers, so they are envious that "Why these rascals, they occupy India?" So, so just to support this occupation, I mean to say, yes, occupation, and..., they made so many propaganda. Even during Gandhi's movement, they engaged one American woman to write a book "Mother India." "Mother India." "Mother India." So the... In... That "Mother India" is simply full of stories where there are so defects. Suppose a priest in the temple is attached with some woman, like that, so many stories like... So one Punjabi, what is his name? Gobha, (?) Gobha. He counteracted that book—"Uncle Sam." (laughter) So these things are going on.
Madhudviṣa: Is that where that name came from, "Uncle Sam"?
Prabhupāda: Uncle Sam is the American word?
Trivikrama: Yes, yes.
Pañcadraviḍa: No.
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. That is their foolishness. They are thinking God a person like me, like himself. That is foolishness. They cannot conceive that a person can become so powerful than myself. That is the defect. A person has acintya-śakti, acintya-śakti, inconceivable power. Now, just like you are person. You cut your hair. It is growing. Do you know how it is growing?
Haṁsadūta: No.
Prabhupāda: Then? Even it is beyond your conception, what to speak of others. But it is growing. It is... If there is any scar or if the nail is broken some way or other, it will come out. But... You cannot manufacture it by conceiving. But it is coming out. That means within you there is an inconceivable power. So if you have got, an ordinary human being, so much inconceivable power, how much God has got inconceivable power. That is God.
Haṁsadūta: In Los Angeles, you called it mystic power, that every living creature has some mystic power.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Every living creature.
Prabhupāda: Because material viewpoint. The viewpoint is wrong; therefore you find discrepancies.
Jayādvaita: So we should think that we have the defect.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ācārya is explained, bhakti-saṁsanaḥ: "One who's preaching the cult of devotional service, he's ācārya." Then why should you find any discrepancy?
Jayādvaita: Because we see... For instance, sometimes the ācārya may seem to forget something or not to know something, so from our point of view, if someone has forgotten, that is...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Then...
Jayādvaita: ...an imperfection.
Prabhupāda: That is not the... Then you do not understand. Ācārya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God. His business is to preach bhakti cult. That is ācārya.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa, not that "I told him, and he did not do. I am free. That's all." (laughs) Expansion of order, and nobody is doing—not like that. One has to see whether it is done. That is Kṛṣṇa. Not that I have told the another man and sleep myself. And Kṛṣṇa does everything in such a way perfect. Pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). Nobody can find out any defect. That is Kṛṣṇa, all-perfect. (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...in the Vaikuṇṭhas, surrounding Nārāyaṇa is Vāsudeva, Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna and Aniruddha?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So five are present. Pañca-tattva.
for irrigation, but it is very, very costly. It requires a great deal of energy.
Prabhupāda: That is their defect. They theorize, but when it is practically going to be done, "No money. Get taxes." They will levy tax, and the tax will be divided amongst themselves, that's all.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Especially now all the governments all over the world are broke. They have no money.
Prabhupāda: There will be very, very big chaos, this godless civilization. And it is distinctly said, "There will be no grain, no sugar, no milk." These things will be stopped. Eat your sons and daughter. You are very much fond of eating meat. Eat your son. They will do that. I think they are doing now. You know that?
Guest: In Africa, yes.
Prabhupāda: Not Africa.
Prabhupāda: To make their Communist philosophy perfection. That your Communism is not perfect. By Kṛṣṇa consciousness you can make it perfect. Take for example that you are sympathetic to all living beings that they must eat. But why you are eating animals? They must eat also. Why don't you allow them to eat? That is you defect. We allow everyone to eat. Not only human beings, but also animals, birds, beasts, they should live comfortably and without any disturbance, they must get their food. That is our Communism. But where is your Communism? You are thinking of your countrymen only, or in your country also only for the human being, and you are sending other poor animals, because they cannot protest, to the slaughterhouse. So why do you protest to the capitalists when they send you to the slaughterhouse? You are sending these poor animals to the slaughterhouse. So why do you protest? You protest that the capitalist are slaughtering you. So, if you slaughter others, why should you be afraid of being slaughtered yourself? Is it all right?
Amogha: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It requires elucidation. "Complete whole" means, just like your body is complete whole, and there are so many other things, there are so many holes in the body, there are so many hairs on the body, there are so many hairs on the head, so many fingers, eyes, ears—so many things—but the body is a complete unit, working as a complete machine. And there are so many things. Similarly, the whole cosmos is complete, exactly like this body is a machine. Similarly the whole cosmos is a big machine. It is complete. One sun is there and keeping everything complete. The day and night, the seasonal changes, the equator, the temperature, the moonlight, the other planets, we living beings, the vegetables—everything is complete by God. And because the sun is there. Similarly, this body, machine, is complete. And the soul is there, it is working nicely. The body is also a creation, and the universe is also a creation, and the brain which has created these things, He is complete. Therefore He has created these complete units. That is the idea. Pūrṇam idaṁ (Iso Invocation). Pūrṇaḥ means complete. And because He is complete, the Creator, He has no defect; therefore He can create everything complete.
Prabhupāda: They haven't got any business. They must do all of these sinful activities. That is the defect of the modern civilization—keeping all men in darkness.
Jayadharma: Does that mean that the people that catch the fish have to also become fish?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And who will become fish? That they do not know, how the transmigration of the soul is going on. They cannot explain wherefrom the fish are coming, wherefrom the trees are coming. Everything in darkness. And this civilization, this dark civilization, is going on, in the name of civilization. They cannot explain what is death, what is next life. Sometimes they say, "It is nature," but how nature is working they do not know. All darkness, mūḍhā na abhijānāti, mām ebhyaḥ parama. The birds and beasts are also catching fish, and they are also catching. What is the difference? What is the difference? They have got this nice human body, and they are acting like birds and beasts. And they are kept in darkness. There is no enlightenment. This is the modern civilization. (pause) The smell. What is the smell?
Prabhupāda: Law requires or not requires, they are going to school with some future hope. So every sane man should think of the future. But because they are kept in darkness, they are all insane. They do not know what is the future of life. That is the defect. Everyone is thinking for future, but he does not know what is future after death. That is their ignorance. And Bhagavad-gītā begins that as the child has future, the boy has future, the young man has future, similarly the old man has also future. So that they do not know. That is their ignorance.
Prabhupāda: You don't like to follow him. You follow Darwin. Whose fault it is? The perfect person's fault, or your fault? You don't like to hear from the perfect person. You want to hear from a humbug bogus person. That is the defect. (long silence)
Carol: Thank you. Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Gaṇeśa: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda.
Amogha: He's bringing something for you.
Carol: We have your record, the Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Temple album. It's beautiful. We sing the chants every night now. They're rather lovely.
Amogha: She says she has the Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Temple album, and every night they sing the chants. At home. They have the record from London.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Carol: They're pretty hard to get hold of. I wish there were more around.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that will benefit. That will benefit.
Prabhupāda: That is one of the defects, our society, that women are there, and one falls victim of these women. And it is not possible to keep the society strictly for men. That is also not possible. But actually no woman should live in the temple. That is the...
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Christians have one place for the women and another place for the men. But we find the women can't organize themselves very well, so it is difficult to organize something like that also.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, if we do not give up lusty desires, either we keep separately or together they fall down in the... All these nuns, they are all complicated, although they live separately. There was a convent school in Calcutta, and it was detected that the head minister was supplying women outside for business. Now one brahmacārīṇi āśrama is started. This means that the authority of this āśrama, they supply young women to rich, richer class, and they pay money. Business is going on.
Prabhupāda: The simple truth. But people have no education. That is the defect of the modern civilization. This is the fact, that you are accepting every moment a different body. So after death, you will have to accept another body. Now, we should know, "What kind of body I am going to accept next?" That is intelligence. That is civilization.
Justin Murphy: Do you mean that the, that that, then, will allow me, if I come to that realization, that that will allow me to then continue to improve my mind, continue to study, to think, to gain knowledge...
Prabhupāda: As far... Yes.
Justin Murphy: ...beyond say the normal sixty-five or seventy years that I might live in what I imagine to be this body?
Prabhupāda: The knowledge should be acquired from the beginning of life, from childhood. But if by circumstances I could not get this knowledge from childhood, then we should begin immediately. Because unless we get this knowledge, our life remains imperfect. We remain animal. The animal does not know this. And after evolutionary process, coming to the human form of body, if we keep ourself in the darkness of animal life, then our this opportunity is lost. This is the first problem.
Gaṇeśa: Most people are materialistically minded. Not many people are spiritually inclined.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the defect of the modern civilization.
Mother: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And therefore they are suffering.
Sister: How can you get back to Godhead...
Prabhupāda: That is stated here. You try to understand Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead.
Sister: Yeah, how can you follow it if you've never been exposed to Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: The book is there.
Prabhupāda: ...if there is government laws, if you do not know it and you act independently, then you are making your life risky. So this is the case of the government law, and what to speak of God's law, nature's law, how strict it is. You can avoid government's law, but you cannot avoid nature's law. That is not possible. So that is the defect of the modern civilization: they do not know how nature is working, and they are keeping themself in ignorance, and they are suffering, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), one body after another. And if he becomes a tree, stand up for five thousand years. And we have to pass through all these stages. He has come to the human form of body. Still he neglects. He continues suffering. They are mad after sense enjoyment; and accepting different material bodies, that means suffering. As soon as you accept a material body, this is suffering. But the suffering of the trees is more suffering. In a forlorn place he stand up for five thousand years and tolerate all the blast, wind, scorching heat, water.
Amogha: I telephoned that geographer yesterday to talk to him, and he said that "What Swamiji said was true, but how can...?" He said, "It will be very difficult to apply because most people, they are not interested." But he says it was very... He could understand that was true, what you were saying. He may also come again to talk more.
Prabhupāda: Yes, let him come. Let him come. People may take or not take, but he is inquisitive gentleman. Let him understand. People... We are preaching. Who is taking? Mass of people, they are not taking it. But still, we are doing that. That is our duty. People may take or not take, but a God's servant must speak the truth. Just like Jesus Christ. He was crucified. Nobody took his words. But he did it. If people would have accepted his philosophy, then why he was crucified by the judges? It was done by the judges, Roman judges. So this is the position of the world. Socrates was killed because he said that there is soul. This is the defect of Western civilization. They want vox populi. What is that vox populi? Huh?
Devotee (1): Bauxite?
Prabhupāda: Vox populi. You know this word?
Śrutakīrti: Yeah, Latin.
Prabhupāda: Latin, yes. People's vote. The people may be asses, but still, their votes will be taken, the vox populi. The fourth-class, fifth-class men, and they are giving vote. And the mistake is detected. Just like this Nixon was voted and the mistake was detected. But still, they follow the same process, vox populi. What is the value of the votes of the fourth-class, fifth-class men? Better one intelligent man, if he knows things, if he is liberated, if he says, "This is right," that should be taken. That is Vedic civilization. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa. We are not accepting the vox populi. One person, the Supreme, that's all. This is our process. We don't accept vox populi. All these Vedic literature are accepted not on the people's vote, but who is presenting? Vyāsadeva is presenting, Kṛṣṇa is presenting. Parāśara Muni is presenting. Therefore they are accepted. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. So what is the value of their votes if they are not intelligent?
But in the Western countries this is the disease, vox populi. Socrates said there is soul, and he was killed because vox populi was against. Christ was killed because vox populi was against. This is the defect of the Western civilization. During the lifetime of Christ, nobody accepted. When he was killed, or crucified, then the other saintly persons, they gave their experience, what they learned from Jesus Christ. Christ could not give any words. Some sporadic words were there, and the Bible was made on that basis. Actually, the Bible is not the word, directly words of Christ.
Prabhupāda: All rubbish theory. Life is mentioned Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-gaḥ: "everywhere." And why these rascals say there is no life?
Paramahaṁsa: They want to see with telescope.
Prabhupāda: This is nonsense, this telescope. That is their defect. They do not admit the imperfection of the senses. What we calculated? How many billions?
Śrutakīrti: To the sun?
Prabhupāda: No, no, the length and breadth.
Śrutakīrti: Oh, it is four billion miles.
Prabhupāda: Four billion miles. So how much the telescope can see? Can you see four billion miles? Eh? Where is the telescope? If you cannot see perfectly even ten miles, with telescope you can see, say, a hundred miles or something more, something, but can you see four billion miles?
Śrutakīrti: No.
Prabhupāda: If the other scientists condemn him, then he will not get service.
Śrutakīrti: That's right.
Devotee: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances)
Prabhupāda: You can write one essay, I'll give you some hints. Bring your notebook and Bhagavad-gītā also. The defect of human society is that..., present human society is that there is no high-class men. The Bhagavad-gītā says, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase (BG 2.11).
Amogha: Aśocam?
Prabhupāda: Aśocyān
Amogha: Aśocyān. Is that Chapter Sixteen?
Prabhupāda: No, second.
Journalist: In that case, if we go on developing, we stay in the skyscraper, or the skyscraper gets bigger.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The skyscraper is not impediment, it is not impediment. If you remain in the skyscraper and develop your spiritual consciousness, you can do that. But the unfortunate thing is that we are too much absorbed in constructing the skyscraper building, forgetting our real business. That is the defect.
Journalist: What about sex and drugs, sex and alcohol.
Prabhupāda: Sex, yes, alcohol, we condemn any kind of intoxication, all our students are forbidden illicit sex. We don't say, "No sex," but "illicit sex," we forbid. Similarly we forbid meat-eating. We don't say that "Don't eat," we simply say that "don't eat meat." You can eat other things, just like we are eating so many nice things.
Journalist: Why not meat?
Prabhupāda: Because it is sinful, you are killing all animals. Your Christian religion says, "Thou shalt not kill." Why you are killing?
Journalist: Yes. How many followers do you have throughout the world now?
Prabhupāda: No, throughout the world, in India everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. In the outside India we have got about ten to twelve thousand dedicated followers.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he is given in charge. Just like we have got different GBC's for different jobs. Similarly, they are doing their duty nicely. All these planets are the different residential quarter of different demigods. They are controlling the whole universal affairs. In comparison to them, this human being is nothing. We are controlled; we are not controller. That they do not realize. The modern civilization they do not realize, although they are being controlled they do not recognize it. That is the defect. This way?
Devotee (2): Yeah.
Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if the human form is insignificant compared to demigods, but still, it is very much desired, this human form of life, even by the demigods?
Prabhupāda: Yes, because very good chance of realizing God in the human form of life. Just like difference between Western countries and India. India, a very quick chance of realization of God. The atmosphere is so nice. So this planet is good for God realization, and the best place is in India.
Prabhupāda: They will take because people are becoming godless. That is the defect. People are becoming hippies, godless. This material world is full of miseries because most people are godless. Here... Material world means avoiding God. That is the sum and substance of material world. They are trying to avoid, becoming independent of God. That is their endeavor. The scientist, the philosopher, the politician—everyone is trying that. Therefore they are suffering. Māyā is there. Just like a criminal, if he says "I don't care for government," the police will take care of. That is certain.
Prabhupāda: People call, that is another thing. That is the defect of the modern civilization, that vox populi. The people may be asses; still, their votes are accepted. The people are trained up as the fourth-class, fifth-class men, and their votes are appre... This is the defect of the modern... They are not trained up as first-class men, and still, their votes are accepted. Therefore, even a very advanced country, America, there was mistake, Nixon. They elected him president. Then they dragged him down. That is the mistake.
Amogha: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost."
Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you give up the ācārya-paramparā system, then it is lost. Kṛṣṇa says that man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. All the ācāryas will say like that, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. And Dr. Radhakrishnan, "No, no, it is not to Kṛṣṇa." Just see the fun. He has become more than the ācāryas. So we reject immediately. He thinks himself too proud that he defies the ācāryas. You see? This is the defect. The whole Bhagavad-gītā is spoken on the battlefield. Gandhi says it is nonviolence. Just see. (Dr. Copeland laughs) So we have to follow these people, do you mean to say?
Dr. Copeland: If you're measuring your success by the numbers of people, he had a lot of people too.
Prabhupāda: No, we don't take that, by number of people. We take how many people are taking actually. But neither... Ekaś candras tamo hanti: "If one man accepts, then he can become the bright moon." Na ca tārāḥ sahasraśaḥ: "The so-called stars has no value." One moon is sufficient. So our preaching is: Let one man understand Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. We don't want disciples. I never collected disciples. I never compromised that "You can do whatever you like, and you become my disciple. "
Madhudviṣa: And the demigods we cannot see. Like the demigods, the higher human species, we cannot see.
Prabhupāda: You, why do you believe on your seeing? That is the defect. That is the defect of the Westerners. They are very deficient; still they say, "I cannot see." What is your seeing power? Suppose if Nārada comes, some demigods come, but you cannot see. Just like when Lord Nṛsiṁha-deva appeared, Prahlāda was seeing. "Is your God here?" "Yes." And he could not see. So why do you believe so much on your seeing? You have to attain seeing power. That is very good example, Prahlāda... Hiraṇyakaśipu asking Prahlāda, "Where is your God?" "My God is everywhere." "He is on the pillar?" "Yes." So he was seeing, but he was not seeing. He became angry and broke the pillar. "Let me see, where is your God." This is the position. So one has to create the eyes to see things. Not that whatever eyes you have got you can see everything. No. Just like motorcar is being driven, a child is seeing that the car is running automatically. And the father is seeing, "No, there is driver."
Prabhupāda: Just see, foolishness. But at least somewhere there is no equal right in the lavatory. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Greeting someone) I have received your letter, you can see me. (break) (Conversation continues in the car) This too much intermingling of woman means the path of hell. Therefore the restriction is that only the married couple can freely mix, not others. Mahat-sevāṁ dvār... That is the defect of the modern civilization. They are not interested associating with devotees. They are interested associating with man or woman, that's all. Woman is interested to associate with man, and man is interested to associate with woman. Yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. Therefore the civilization is becoming hellish. It is already said in the śāstra. One should associate with spiritually advanced men, but that is not being done. Now the woman is hankering after man, man is hankering after woman. Yoṣit saṅg... Yoṣit means for sense gratification. Tamo-dvāram. This is the path of darkness.
Prabhupāda: ...defect of the Western country is practically there is no social structure. The father, mother, they divorce, and the children become careless. Most cases this is the defect.
Director: Happens, yes.
Prabhupāda: I have seen many of my students, their family, whole family disrupt on account of father and mother, even in old age, divorce. I have seen Brahmānanda's mother. His father was very... still living. Very good businessman, very nice family, good income. All of a sudden the father and mother disagreed, they divorce. The sons were somewhere; the daughters were somewhere.
Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous law to allow divorce. Divorce should not be allowed. Even there is some disagreement between husband and wife, it should be neglected. According to Cāṇakya Paṇḍita... He was great politician. He has said that dampatya kalahe caiva bahvārambhe laghu kriyā. The husband and wife's quarrel should not be taken very seriously. Ajā yuddhe (More quote by Cāṇakya) Just like fight between two goats. They are fighting, and if you say "Hut!" they will go away. Similarly, the fight between husband and wife should not be taken very seriously. Let them fight for some time; they will stop automatically. But the husband and wife fight, and he, as soon as he goes to the lawyer and he gives incentive, "Yes, come to the court." This is going on. So the first defect is there is divorce law. Another defect is that there is no method how to train a man to become first class. That is there in the Vedic civilization. Now of course in India that is also now abolished by degradation.
Otherwise the society was divided into four classes—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas were first-class men, ideal. But in the society there is no ideal men. One should have some example, living example, to see "Oh, here is an ideal man." So the ideal man is described here in our Bhagavad-gītā. What is the ideal? Any man can be trained up. Not cent percent, but even one percent man becomes ideal, the ninety-nine percent will see and follow. But there is no ideal man. That is the defect. So just like we are training them as ideal man, by character, by religion, by behavior, by education. That is the purpose of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And you can see practically what was their previous life and what they are now. So government should establish an institution to create ideal men. We can help. We can help.
Director: Yeah, but that's one opinion.
Prabhupāda: No. It will not depend on opinion. Opinion... What is the value of opinion if the people are all asses? There is no opinion. One should take as it is enjoined in the śāstra. No opinion. What is the use of taking opinion of an ass? So the people are trained up just like dogs and asses, then what is the use of their opinion? If you are to enforce, you must do like this. Just like when we introduced this "No illicit sex." I never cared for their opinion. The opinion... immediately there will be discussion. And what is the use of taking their opinion? It must be done. That is the defect of Western civilization. Vox populi, taking opinion of the public. But what is the value of this public? Drunkards, smokers, meat-eaters, woman-hunters. What is the... they are not first-class men. So what is the use of such third-class, fourth-class men's opinion? We do not advocate such opinion. What Kṛṣṇa said, that is standard, that's all. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, and His version is final.
Prabhupāda: His ideal is all right. His ideal, Communist idea that everyone should be happy, that is good idea. But they do not know how make ev... Just like they are taking care of the human being in the state, but they are sending poor animals to the slaughterhouse. Because they are godless, they do not know the animal is also a living being and the human being also living being. So for the satisfaction of the tongue of the human being the animal should be cut throat. That is the defect. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who is learned, he is equal to everyone. That is learned. "I take care of my brother and I kill you," that is not right. That is going on. Everywhere. Nationalism. Nation... National means one who has taken birth in that land. But the animal, poor animal, because they cannot make any protest, send them to the slaughterhouse. And if there were ideal men, they would have protested, "Oh, why you are doing this? Let them live also. You live also.
Director: Well, say two hundred years ago people to survive the winter had to kill the...
Prabhupāda: No, no. You take your mother's milk. You take your mother's milk, and when the mother cannot supply milk you kill her. What is this? Is that humanity? And nature is so strong, for this injustice, sinful, you must suffer. You must be prepared to suffer. So there will be war, and wholesale will be killed. Nature will not tolerate this. They do not know all these, how nature is working, how God is managing. They do not know God. This is the defect of the society. They do not care what is God. "We are scientists, we can do everything." What you can do? Can you stop death? Nature says, "You must die. You are Professor Einstein, that's all right. You must die." Why the Einstein and other scientists they do not discover medicine or process? "No, no, we shall not die." So this is the defect of the society. They are completely under the control of nature, and they are declaring independence. Ignorance. Ignorance. So we want to reform this.
Director: Our minister regards himself as a servant of the people, who can be kicked out...
Prabhupāda: That is the defect. The people are rascals and they have elected another rascal. (laughter) That is the defect.
Director: But that's how it is.
Prabhupāda: So what can be done? Then hopeless.
Director: Well, you can work on the...
Prabhupāda: But we are going without depending on these rascals. We are going on. We are publishing our books, we are making our movement, we honestly trying. That's all. That we are doing all over the world.
Director: All we can do is allow you to convince the population differently.
Prabhupāda: We are doing.
Madhudviṣa: Though his material body dies.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But a pure devotee goes back to home. There is no more material body. That is the... So we are advocating that you come to this stage where you will not to have accept this material body. Then you are really happy. And if you want to enjoy the flickering, illusory māyā, then you are subjected to the māyā. You are enjoying as American. Then you enjoy as a dog. That is māyā's control. But if you don't enjoy material things then you become purified. You come to the eternal life, back to home, back to Godhead. But they are not willing to give up this material enjoyment. That is the defect. So it requires education. It requires knowledge. It requires training.
Guest 1: One thing I wondered about. In our terms sometimes you can find a person that you admire or who you believe does good, but he professes to be an atheist. I'm thinking about a person like Bertrand Russell.
Prabhupāda: No, our ideas are standard. We are not manufacturing any idea. Just like whatever we speak, immediately we give evidence from the śāstra. That is our standard. We accept standard idea, and the standard idea means the ideas given by God. That is standard. There is no mistake. There is no cheating, There is no illusion. Any idea we form, that is prone to these four defects. One defect is that we are prone to commit mistake. We are prone to be illusioned. And our senses are imperfect. So being subjected to mistaken idea, illusioned idea, our senses being imperfect, if we want to give some law, that is cheating.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. Simply they have to harvest, time, maybe two hours a day. Farming or being in the countryside also seems to be, in itself working in the countryside rather than in a factory, seems to be more conducive for thinking, even while they're working.
Prabhupāda: No, it is a fact. This factory working is most demonic. It is not required at all. For the interest of a few persons this device has been invented. Therefore the Communist movement is there. And the China has found the Communistic movement in Russia is defective because although it is Communistic, the whole idea of exploitation by the powerful is there.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, that is their argument actually.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is the fact. And Chinese Communism will be perfect if they take little instruction from us. We are also Communist, Kṛṣṇa Communist. We want that everyone should be happy. The Communistic philosophy is also like that. They want to see everyone happy. But they have made a materialistic center. That will not help. People are attracted to these bad habits of materialistic civilization. The most important is that sex and intoxication and meat-eating and gambling. So their attraction has to be changed.
Prabhupāda: But they do not know that where is the defect. Defect is that everyone has got some attraction. Somebody has attraction for his personal self. Somebody has got attraction for wife, children, family, then attraction for society. In this way they talk of many things. They have come to attraction of humanity. They are all nonsense. The attraction is for sense gratification under different names only. My attraction for family is not for their benefit. By my sense gratification the family members help me, therefore I am attracted. The wife gives me pleasure; therefore I like wife. The wife also likes husband because husband gives pleasure. Otherwise, there is no attraction. As soon as the husband and wife fails to give pleasure, divorce. The son goes out. The daughter goes out. So everyone is prone to some attraction. So if you keep them in the material attraction, then you can change the name; the disease will continue. That is the difficulty. You can change the name from this ism to that ism but every ism is material.
Prabhupāda: ...go-kharaḥ. Anything evolving on the bodily concept of life, he remains an animal. That is the defect of the western philosophy. (break) ...philosophy, the dog's tail. He is always this way, material way. (break)
- (yasyātma) buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
- sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-idya-dhīḥ
- yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
- janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
- (SB 10.84.13)
Go means cow; kharaḥ means ass. (break) ...also nowadays it has become a fashion to keep dog.
Bali-mardana: Yes, and to put stool on the sidewalk. Wherever there is dogs, there is stool all over the sidewalk.
Prabhupāda: That is the modern civilization. They are avoiding cow dung and associating dog stool. (laughs) This is modern... Cow dung is so beneficial. That they are avoiding. And they are associating dog stool. The dog mentality. The master and the servant, and the, er, dog, both of them watching. The master writes by signboard. What is that? "Keep away. Private property." And the animal also making, "Gow! Gow! Gow!" Both of them are dogs. He is making "Gow! Gow!" by signboard, and he is doing it as nature, but both of them are dogs. One is two-legged dog, another is four-legged dog.
Dr. Gerson: But there are still many who aren't familiar with the movement and I hope to familiarize them.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. Yes. But I say that even there is something wrong, it is not impediment. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). Even if you find in devotee something bad, and his behavior is not in the standard, but because he is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no other business, he is sādhu. Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). He is sādhu. He is saintly man. Even if you find some defect in his character, because he is sticking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is saintly. Kṛṣṇa says. How is that, a saintly man has got some this bad character? So that answer is next verse.
- kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā
- śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati
- kaunteya pratijānīhi
- na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati
- (BG 9.31)
"Yes, there are some defects. It is right. But it will be very soon finished." Just like you make the switch off, electric fan. So after the switch is off, still it is moving. But that movement is not real movement because the switch is off. It will stop very soon.
Dr. Gerson: Many of the defects that the tests might measure are defects that are measured against an insane society that considers itself sane. And so they aren't defects even if they show up.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you will find defects. But if the devotees stick to Kṛṣṇa consciousness principle, these defects will soon become finished.
Revatīnandana: One thing specifically he wants to do in order to counteract this propaganda against the Gurukula which had serious impact, he wants to do some of this testing with the children in a way that is specifically done with children to show that these children are actually happy and they're developing nicely. He wanted to know if that would be permissable for him to do some testing at the Gurukula with the children.
Prabhupāda: That depends on your management, how you are raising the children. If they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it is all right. So far bodily defects, you might find. But we are denying from the very beginning, "I am not this body." So by finding some bodily defects how you will decide about the spirit? Because spirit is not this body. You cannot conclude that because there are some bodily defects, therefore he has got spiritual defect. That is not right conclusion. The same example: "because there are some dirty things in the Ganges, the Ganges is no more good." That conclusion is wrong.
Dr. Gerson: There has been a lot of bad propaganda that the children at Gurukula are unhappy and that they're not developing normally as children or human beings, and I would like to overcome that propaganda by showing that they are.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that the managers of the Gurukula, they should take care of. But if they follow the instruction which I have given for conducting Gurukula, then there is no question of... What is the general defect they are finding out?
Bahulāśva: No, they are not finding... They are just making up these defects, Prabhupāda?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing they say is that the parents are not allowing the children the freedom to choose whether they want to be trained in this way or not. They are forcing the children to be trained in a very limited view, only Kṛṣṇa.
Bahulāśva: And they say that by repetitive chanting...
Prabhupāda: That means they do not know Kṛṣṇa means everything. That they do not know.
Prabhupāda: Research. So by searching, searching, searching, if you do not come to Kṛṣṇa, then your searching is incomplete. That is the defect. And when you come to Kṛṣṇa understanding, then it is perfect. Then your research work is complete. That is... Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). Research work means... Actually, that is science, to find out the original source. Just like they are claiming, "The original source of life is chemical." That is not knowledge, imperfect knowledge. The perfect knowledge is as Kṛṣṇa says. What is that? Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). "I am the origin of everything." So when they come to Kṛṣṇa, then he finds out the original source. So that is possible by this research worker after many, many births, not many, many years, but many, many births. And bahūnāṁ janmanām ante: (BG 7.19) "After many, many births," bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān, "one who is actually advanced in knowledge, he surrenders unto Me." Why? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), that "Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of everything." Sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ: "Such research scholar, mahātmā, is very rare." And then He describes in the next verse that what is the symptom of these mahātmās, perfect soul. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ: (BG 9.13)
Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in these psychological tests the thing is not that... There's some defects... Naturally there's some defects...
Prabhupāda: There must be. Material science means defective.
Dharmādhyakṣa: But in the karmī world there are even more defects. You see?
Prabhupāda: Yes, the...
Dharmādhyakṣa: And the tests would show that in the karmī world there's more...
Prabhupāda: ...psychology is philosophy, part of philosophy. So philosophers are better than these fools, karmīs. They are accepted as ass. Karmīs are accepted as the animal ass. Why? Because the ass works day and night without any personal profit. The ass, they work very hard. You have seen ass? And he is working? In India we see very usually. It is loaded with tons of things. He cannot move even. You see. And he agrees to work. And what is his benefit? He gets little grass. But the grass can be had without any working. But this rascal does not know. He agrees to work hard, day and night. So all these karmīs, I have seen in New York, they are working so hard and they are eating only a glass of tea and this dry loaf.
Prabhupāda: Now they have been trained up. What can be done? Woman is not trained up now to become a chaste wife. That is the defect of the civilization. Formerly, woman was trained up only to become, remain faithful to his husband, that's all. Nari-rūpaṁ pati-vrataḥ: "Woman's beauty is how she is faithful to her husband." That's all. That is beauty, not personal beauty. Vidyā rūpaṁ kurupanam: "A black man or ugly man, if he is educated, that is his beauty." Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpaṁ. Kokila, the cuckoo is just like a crow, but everyone likes because his voice is so sweet. Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpaṁ vidyā rūpaṁ kurupanam nari-rūpaṁ pati-vratam. Like that, he has given a list. These are the beauty. If a woman is trained up not to talk with any other man except her husband, that is her beauty. That enhances the beauty and prestige. This is Vedic knowledge.
Prabhupāda: ...which is fact? The dreams and phases of different life while passing through, they are facts or I am fact? What is your answer? We are teaching that, you take care of the fact, not of the dreams. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We are changing circumstances. The circumstances are not fact but the whole world is taking care of the circumstances not of the sheer fact. This is the defect of modern civilization. We are very much serious about the passing on circumstances, but we are not serious about the person who is going through the circumstances. This is the whole defect of modern civilization. And that is the beginning of real life. If we take care of the circumstances, that is being done by the cats and dogs and hogs, everyone. Where to find eatables, where to find sex, where to find shelter for sleeping, and how to defense—these circumstances are understood by the animals. There is no need of education. Just like this morning I pointed out. The bird is catching a small fish, "Fut!" He knows where to find out his eatable.
Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand this. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam: "I am expanded by My energy everywhere." So the everywhere how you can go? You love Kṛṣṇa, and your love will go everywhere. You pay tax to the government, and the tax is distributed in so many departments. So it is not your business to go every department and pay tax. Pay to the treasury of the government; it will be distributed. This is intelligence. And if you say that "Why shall I pay to the treasury house? I shall pay the this department, that department, that department, that department," you can go on, but it will never be sufficient, neither complete. So you may love humanity, but because you do not love Kṛṣṇa, therefore you do not love the cows; you send them to slaughterhouse. So your love will remain defective. It will never be complete. And if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you will love even the small ant. You will be not interested even to kill even an ant. That is real love.
Prabhupāda: So I shall remain here.
Nitāi: If you remain here, then we can finish very easily.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (break) There was some defect in the roof. They are repairing?
Nitāi: The roof there? Yes, the roof has been fixed.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...ārati time about hundred devotee, outsiders come?
Nitāi: At least.
Prabhupāda: Oh, at least.
Nitāi: It's crowded every night. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...perform āratika nicely?
Nitāi: Yes, it's done very nicely.
Prabhupāda: How much, how long they do it?
Nitāi: They do for about twenty-five minutes.
rabhupāda: Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). These materialistic persons, they do not know what is Viṣṇu or they do not know that his ultimate goal of life is to know Viṣṇu, or God. This is human life. But that is missing. They do not care to know that the ultimate, what is the ultimate goal of human life. This is the defect. Nobody cares to know, especially in this age. So that is the defeat of human civilization. They must know. This is the process, that... By evolution, they have come to nature's way, human form of life. Now they must know what is God. Otherwise it is defeat.
Dr. Judah: That's true.
Prabhupāda: The opportunity given by nature, good consciousness to know God, Viṣṇu. Now, practically, take anyone, especially in the western world. Nobody can say what is God. Is it not?
Dr. Judah: It's true.
Dr. Judah: Yes. Well, they have tried to give descriptions, but, of course, I think all descriptions that have been given of God are, as descriptions are inadequate. Because in my own feeling I believe that the full knowledge of God comes through the actual experience of God, experiencing God in our lives.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that experience you can get. Just like God is describing Himself. Now, why don't you take that? Your description may be defective because you are imperfect. But if God Himself is giving His, I mean to say, identification, why don't you take it? Not only gives description, He acts according to the description. When Kṛṣṇa was present, He says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7), "There is no more superior element." He proved it when He was present. There was no more superior power than Him when Kṛṣṇa was present. In His opulence, in His richness, in His strength, in His education—everything, all topmost, Kṛṣṇa. All topmost. The proof is that because you get the topmost knowledge, therefore Bhagavad-gītā is read all over the world, accepted, topmost knowledge. All scholars, all philosophers, all religionists, they read it.
Prabhupāda: Na satyaṁ teṣu vidyate. This is the whole population. They do not know... There are big, big nation, big, big philosopher, big, big scientists and all very big, but what kind of life they should live, they do not know. What is the accurate destination of our life, that they do not know. And all humbug, big, big scientist, philosopher, theologist, and so on, so on, politician, sociologist, welfare. But real thing, they are rascal. They do not know which way we have to go. So what is the use of these big, big words? They do not know which way to go. Suppose we are walking. If we go to the this side without knowing that "This is water; we should not go," then what is the use? That is their defect. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na vidur āsurāḥ janā. Na śaucaṁ nāpi cācāro (BG 16.7). (chuckles) Śaucam, cleanliness, they do not know, neither behavior. Nāpi cācāro. Jagad āhur anīśvaram; (BG 16.8) "Oh, there is no God. It has come out out of the sand." This is the whole population. Jagad ahur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). Which way we shall go? (break) Therefore we require vigorous propaganda to make these fools to understand what is the real aim of life.
Prabhupāda: There? You see? He is loading so much, and what he is eating? Little grass. So the ass does not know, "The grass is available here. Why shall I work for him?" That is ass. He is working so hard for a few morsel of grass, and the grass is all over the world, but he will take the load. That is ass. My problem is eating, sleeping, mating, so I can arrange for these things very easily. Anywhere, I till the ground and get some food. I keep some cows and I have got land, then my whole economic question is solved. Why shall I make this bambhārambha-bharam udvahato vimūḍhān, big, big...? You do it, but why should you forget your real business? That is the defect, that you are so foolish that only for this maintaining body, you have forgotten your real business.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Your position is very minute. So you can desire up to that limit, not that you can desire "I become complete, universal." That is the defect of the Māyāvāda. "Because I am equal... So 'ham. Because I am qualitatively one, therefore I am one in every respect." A drop of ocean water, if he desires, "I become ocean," that is not possible. But a drop of ocean water contains the same ingredients as the big Pacific Ocean. So in your quantitative proportion, if you desire, that is your perfection.
Prabhupāda: How is that? You can see the universe; that does not mean that you can become universe. You can see the sky; that does not mean you become as big as sky. (break) ...small, minute shining sparks, minute combination. So they are also shining, but that does not mean they can become as good, as big, as the sun. (break) ...the defect of the Māyāvāda philosophy. They think of themselves too much. Therefore they remain here, always in māyā. (break) ...abuddhayaḥ, means the intelligence is not purified. They are called aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ or viśuddha (SB 10.2.32), "without purification of knowledge." (break) ...kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ anādṛta-yuṣmād-aṅghrayaḥ. They fall down. (break) ...this symbol?
Harikeśa: Some fountain.
Prabhupāda: No, there are some children, symbolic.
Prabhupāda: It has to be. If you don't, then you must suffer with all these criminals. That is natural. Just like in your body there is head, and there is arm, and there is belly, and there is leg. The head is the most important part. Why? Why not all legs? Why there are different divisions? Similarly, in the human society, if we want to make it perfect, there must be head, there must be arm, there must be belly, there must be legs. So leg can walk, but leg cannot do the work of brain. So at the present moment we have got all walking men, no brain. Therefore the society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain in the society. That is the defect of modern civilization. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and work, there are four divisions. (aside:) You can push it back. Four divisions. So similarly, four divisions must be there: a group of men, first-class; a group of men, administrators; a group of men, food producer; and a group of men, general worker. So the brain is the chief. If your body... There are other parts, but if your head is cut off, then what is the use of other parts? If your hand is cut off, you can live. If your leg is cut off, you can live. But if your head is cut off, then finished. So that is lacking in the present society, no brain how to guide, so that whole human... If the brain is there, then it can guide. It can ask the hand to work in a certain way, the leg to work in certain way, to eat in a certain way. Then the health of the whole body will be quite competent. But if there is no brain, then everything... Just like a man becomes mad when the brain is not working.
Prabhupāda: That is the defect. We have no idea who is first-class man. Everyone is drunkard, everyone smoker, everyone is gambler, everyone is illicit sex, where is first-class man? So in the absence of first-class man there must be criminals. Aiye. So there is a need of first-class men, first-class men and second-class men. Third-class, fourth-class, fifth-class, they are automatically there. So at the present moment fourth-class, fifth-class men. Third-class is also very scarcely found, and there is no question of first-class, second-class. But as in the full body we require brain, we require arm, we require belly, we require leg... Everything is required for different purposes of work. But at the present moment there is no place for the first-class men. When we ask our students that "You become free from all these four classes of sinful activity: no illicit sex, no meat-eating," people laugh: "Oh, why you are asking?" They do not know what is the ideal man. They think, "Illicit sex, what is wrong there? Meat-eating, what is wrong there?" They do not know what is right and wrong. Therefore all fourth-class men. They cannot understand even what is the value of these things. So you cannot be happy with fourth-class men. At least there must be a section, first-class men. That we are trying to create, a first-class man from this Gurukula.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So material consciousness is false.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything can be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. That is our preaching. That is truth. There is a nice car. Why shall I condemn it? Utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. Then it is truth. And the Māyāvādī philosophers, they will say, "It is untruth. Give it up." No. When you have produced something by your good intelligence, it is truth, but when you use it for other purpose than Kṛṣṇa, then it is false. (break) ...Deity nicely decorated, if I say, "It is all false," is that very good sense? They have created such a nice thing. No, the purpose for which you have created or utilized, that is false. So we want to change the consciousness. We don't condemn the thing. (break) ...with a knife you are cutting vegetables and utilizing, but if you use it for cutting your throat, that is bad. That is bad. So they are using the knife for cutting their own throat. This is bad. (break) The śāstra says, nidrāham ādyaṁ plavaṁ sukalpam. This body... We are just crossing the ocean of nescience. So this body is a good boat. māyā ete 'rtaṁ guruḥ karṇa-dharam. And the wind is favorable, Kṛṣṇa's instruction. And the captain is guru. He is guiding you. With all these facilities, if you cannot cross the nescience, then you are cutting your throat. (break) ...boat is there, the captain is there, the favorable wind is there. But we are not utilizing it. That means I am killing myself. (break) ...nity. is there. (break) ...policy. The policy is suicidal. That is the defect. So preaching means to remove this defect and utilize the policy for going ahead.
Prabhupāda: So they were wrongly initiated. We want recommendation from the authority, whether one should be initiated, but they gave wrong information. That is the defect of the informer. (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...Hari-nāma initiation can be a little more liberal.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But brāhmaṇa initiation should be strict.
Prabhupāda: Very strict. Very strict means he must be observed that he is actually chanting sixteen rounds, following the regulative principles. That's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those are the important...?
Prabhupāda: These are the criterions, that he is actually, seriously doing this. Then he can be initiated. Otherwise useless. He will fall down.
Prabhupāda: According to Manu-saṁhitā, which is Vedic laws, it is said that "Woman is not to be given freedom." They have to be protected. According to Vedic civilization, women, children, old man, brāhmaṇa, and cow—they are to be given protection. The state should give protection. (break) ...the defect of modern civilization is that vox populi.
Nitāi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Everything is passed by popular vote. But that is also defective.
Brahmānanda: You brought that out nicely by giving the example of Nixon. He received the largest popular vote of any president in the history, and he was also then pulled down.
Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi also. She got the largest number of vote...
Brahmānanda: Even more than her father she received.
Prabhupāda: So what is the value of these votes? If, by vote, if you select a wrong man and again you try to drag him down, then what is the use of this popular vote? Even in Communist country, the, what is called, Krushchev? He was the head. Now nobody knows where he is.
Prabhupāda: Oh. No, Vedic culture do not keep skull, they burn it. Therefore there is no opportunity for you to see the Vedic culture. Then you become defective. Because you cannot see the skulls of Vedic culture. We burn it. So therefore your conclusion is defective.
Harikeśa: So the only bones they find are the bones of the fifth, sixth, seventh-class men.
Prabhupāda: Yes, of the monkey-class men. (laughter) That's all. Therefore you conclude that the man comes from monkey. That is the conclu... Human being, Vedic culture, they burn it. So they have no opportunity to see the human being skull. The monkeys, they do not burn. So he has seen only the monkey skull, and his conclusion is, "Man is from monkey."
Lakṣmī-nārāyaṇa: Even their method for dating the bones is defective also.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Lakṣmī-nārāyaṇa: They have a scientific, not scientific, but they have a process how they date the bones. It's called the carbon 14 dating process, and it's been proved defective. (break)
Jayatīrtha: ...so many bones, they should draw the conclusion that the big problem is death.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is impossible, sir. You lick up your bones, but you have to die. You have to lay down your bone now. (break)
Devotee: If the Vedic culture was a superior culture, how come man gave up the Vedic culture to take to the materialistic life? one
Prabhupāda: No one has given up. You are taking up. No one has given up.
Devotee: But five thousands years ago...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Otherwise how you are getting if it was given up? How you are getting now? It was not given up. Who says it was given up?
Devotee: Well, America was formed on a materialistic society.
Prabhupāda: America may say, but if it was given up, then how you are getting now?
Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. That is also speculation. (laughter) "Because I have failed, therefore there is no knowledge." This is also imperfect because how I can conclude like that? I am imperfect. I cannot decide this way or that way. So that is also. Vedic knowledge says that a conditioned soul has got four defects: illusion, mistake, imperfectness and cheating. Any conditioned soul. Even Brahma, he is receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye (SB 1.1.1). Ādi-kavi means Brahma. He is the most perfect person within this universe, Lord Brahma. So he is also receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. Any conditioned soul, beginning from Brahmā down to the ant, they are defective in four ways: illusion, mistake, imperfectness and cheating. They know that "I am imperfect." Just this Darwin. He knew that he is imperfect, and he cheated so many persons—by false theory, which he cannot explain. He simply gives, "Perhaps millions of years' gap...," this, that. That is not knowledge. So the imperfect person is prone to become a cheater. So we should not take knowledge from the cheaters. What do you think?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We should take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī philosophy is defective. They say if everything is God then where is the Lord's separate existence. That is their defect. That is materialist theory. If you take a big paper and make it into small pieces and throw it away, then the big paper is lost. (laughs) The Māyāvādī thinks like that, that if everything is Brahman, Brahman is distributed, then where is..., why you call the Supreme Lord? They think that Brahman being distributed, He is finished. This is Māyāvādī. He does not know the potency of God. And that is stated in Upaniṣad. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam.
Prabhupāda: He says that above the Māyāvāda philosophy there is something else, super. That is bhakti. (indistinct) ...bhakti, but he could not understand because he did not take any education from realized person. He wanted to realize himself. That is his defect.
Prof. Hopkins: So one who... You would see his effort to transcend, I suppose you would call it...
Prabhupāda: That effort was for life after life. Then when his effort will be successful he will realize Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19).
Prof. Hopkins: So his problem was the effort to attempt to do this on his own without going through...
Prabhupāda: The guru.
Prabhupāda: That is the defect. They should scientifically explain what is Kṛṣṇa. Then their science is perfect. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22), education, tapasya, sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddha-dattayoḥ, charity and gentleness, all good qualities. So kavibhiḥ nirūpito. Kavibhiḥ, big personalities they have decided, yad-uttamaśloka-guṇanuvarṇanam. If, by their knowledge they can establish vāsudevaḥ sarvam..., Kṛṣṇa is the origin, then their scientific knowledge is perfect. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito. Kavibhiḥ means great learned scholars. They have decided like this, yad-uttamaśloka-guṇanuvarṇanam, instead of talking all nonsense, "This is this. This is this," if they can scientifically explain that "Kṛṣṇa is the original scientist, and His brain has done this like this, like this..." That is Bhāgavata, who is the original scientist, who is original philosopher, original—everything original. Anādir ādir govindaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Govinda is the origin of everything. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). Vāsudeva is the original founder. That is a fact.
Paramahaṁsa: How it is? It's a line for a kite, and it's wound upon on a stick, and to make the kite go higher you unleash...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is going on. Sometimes the kite is going on, it is also rounding. And when the kite is coming down, that is also rounding. But you see one thing. But one thing is coming down; one is going up.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it's defective vision which...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a cat catching a rat in the mouth, his position, and catching the cub, kit, what is called?
Brahmānanda: Kitten.
Prabhupāda: You see that it is on the mouth, but one is feeling pleasure, and one is feeling finished. (laughter)
Yadubara: The materialists say that it's very morbid to talk so much about death. They say it is very depressing to speak so much about death.
Prabhupāda: Because they are rascals, they cannot conquer. Everyone doesn't like death, but because they cannot conquer, they say like that, "Grapes are sour. Don't bother." After jumping, jumping, jumping, when the grapes were not available, "It is sour, no use."
Prabhupāda: Because they are nondevotee. That is the defect. More the nondevotee, more rascal mūḍha, duṣkṛtina, mūḍha... They cannot. Duṣkṛtino mūḍhaḥ, na prapadyante. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna: "Knowledge has been taken away by māyā." (break) ...more you become atheist, the more you become blind. This is the point. (break) ...given this maxim in our Back to Godhead, "Where there is God there is no nescience." (break) ...preaching, back to God. "If you want to know things are there, then come back to God. Don't go this side; come this side." This side means he will be drowned. There are two sides. If somebody unnecessarily goes this side, he is death, and this side, he is saved. So one who is going this side we are asking back to Godhead, "Come in this side." If one goes this side, he will find the downtown, so many nice buildings, parks and everything. And the boy who goes this side, he will die.
Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, during the last year I went to many different colleges and universities. And I could see that these professors are very much argumentative. They like to argue. They like to debate. So I tried to start one debating program so that they could come and they could bring their philosophy. And I told them that I could show them their philosophy and how it was defective from the Bhagavad-gītā. I wanted to know if this was a good program for the universities.
Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy?
Devotee (4): There were some engineers that came. And they said that everything that we see manifested in this material world is made by the engineers.
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is the greatest engineer.
Devotee (4): Yes.
Prabhupāda: We say that. But ask the professor that "You are engineer; you are not so powerful. There is another big engineer who has done it. So God means you try to understand who is that biggest engineer."
Prabhupāda: Hm. So already some machine idle. You had to spend so much, but they are lying idle. That is not good. That is the defect of machine. If you cannot ply it, then it is dead loss.
Brahmānanda: If you cannot what?
Prabhupāda: It is dead loss if you cannot work with the machine.
Brahmānanda: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: But when you go to purchase you have to pay lots of money. Now they will be rusty with water and gradually useless. How much money you have invested?
Nityānanda: Thousands.
Prabhupāda: Just see. This is the defect of machine. If you cannot utilize it, then it is dead loss.
Prabhupāda: It is defective training, bad civilization. They cannot employ everyone. (break) ...religion stresses that everyone should be engaged. No one should remain idle. That is the government's duty. Bad government.
Ādi-keśava: But the government says it is every man's freedom to work or not to work.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is his irresponsible government: "It is man's freedom—he may eat or may not eat." It is saying like that.
Ambarīṣa: They would rather not work if they don't have to.
Prabhupāda: Why we are working? Eh? Why we are not for that freedom, that "We shall not work"? Why we have engaged ourself for working?
Ādi-keśava: For Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: So therefore must be the real center. Nobody is paying us any salary, superficially. But why we are working? (break) Therefore the slavery was there—"You must work." Those who are śūdras will not work. Therefore the slavery was there. (break)
Ādi-keśava: In this country, when they had the slavery, the masters were not qualified either.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the defect. That is the defect. Either the master is defective or the servant is defective or the system is defective. That is material world. Doṣa-catuḥsthānī, four faults: mistake, illusion, cheating, and imperfectness. (break) ...the struggle for existence—one mistake after one mistake, one illusion after one, one imperfectness after another. Like that, it is going on.
Prabhupāda: That is yajña. To work for Kṛṣṇa means yajña. Yajñarthe karma: "For yajña, performing yajña, one has to work." To work for Kṛṣṇa means yajña. That is performance of yajña. (break) ...Communistic idea is borrowing this idea from... But because they are imperfect, they have made center, state. And because it is imperfect, it is not successful. They have made center the state. (break) Tamo-guṇa means laziness and sleep. The śūdras, they are in laziness and sleep. So if they have got something to eat, they will not work. Laziness. Or eat more and sleep. This is tamo-guṇa. And rajo-guṇa means they are working for sense gratification. That is also useless. Tamo-guṇa is laziness and sleeping, and rajo-guṇa means working foolishly or for sense gratification. And sattva-guṇa means they know how to work. And therefore above this sattva-guṇa they become devotee, work for Kṛṣṇa. So without working for Kṛṣṇa, everyone is under the spell of these modes of material nature. And there is no training how to work for Kṛṣṇa. That is the defect of modern civilization.
Indian Man (2): Prabhupāda, these people, dogs, mostly are atheist? Atheist, they take the birth as the dog?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless one is atheist, how he takes to dog? Theist takes to God, and they takes to dog. That's it. Not only animal dog, but they associate with a human dog, two-legged dogs. There are four-legged, and there are two-legged dogs-human being, but dog. He is also like dog, although he has got two legs and they have got four legs. In the parks it is by law prohibited to take dog, but he is dog. He violate the dog's law. Therefore he is no better than dog. (break) ...defect of modern civilization—they are keeping people as dog, and they want to make them human beings by law. They are thinking, "If we impose this law, things will be all right." But how things will be all right? If you keep them dog, how the things will be all right? So we are training from dog to humanity. That is our special activities. We do not keep them as dog. We bring them to become godly. Then things will be all right. Other so-called gurus, they keep the disciple to remain as dog. Please pay him, and he... Asikbada—he will be all right. This is going on. (break) ...our class begin?
Brahmānanda: What time do the Deities open?
Viśvakarmā: Usually the Deities open at seven.
Prabhupāda: So we shall go back?
Viśvakarmā: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) She is spiritually inclined. She goes to so many spiritual men, but they cannot give her guidance. That means she has some inclination. That I can understand. Just like these for..., American boys, they are after spiritual enlightenment and all the swamis and yogis who went there simply exploited them because they have no knowledge, neither they are prepared to take knowledge from the authority, Kṛṣṇa. That is their defect. That is their defect.
Lalitā: They have become Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore they could not give any...
Lalitā: Everybody is Bhagavān.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.
Lalitā: If you go anywhere, he is Bhagavān.
Prabhupāda: He is Bhagavān.
Lalitā: Now full Kali. (Bengali) Kali-yuga (Bengali) Everybody is busy with their duties.
Prabhupāda: Ah, they are engaged.
Prabhupāda: Oh. When I say? That means no brain. I am asking without seeing, and you are seeing for the last one week. You do not know it, that what is secure, what is not secure. That is the defect. Here thieves are very expert.
Dhanañjaya: But the chokidar is there at the front, guarding all night, and the bell is situated very high inside the dome.
Prabhupāda: Still should be secure. (break) ...that in the temple these bells are stolen even it is secure. Therefore we shall be very careful.
Dhanañjaya: But there are always devotees, twenty-four hours.
Prabhupāda: (to passerby:) Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. But our devotees, the first-class devotee, (chuckles) he is not very intelligent. He does not know what is secure, what is not secure. (break) ...character that we are not very much concerned, but we have to live in a world which is very, very cunning. It is not yet half past six. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: You are accepting God is impersonal because He is sarva-vyāpaka. Why? Sarva-vyāpaka... He can be... You are thinking in your own way, that you are sitting here; you are not sarva-vyāpaka. You are vyāpaka here only, so you are thinking God is like you.
Indian man (3): No, I am not thinking like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your defect.
Indian man (3): On the contrary, that is...
Prabhupāda: Aiye aiye. That is your defect. You are comparing God with your existence.
Indian man (3): I am not comparing with God.
Prabhupāda: Then... I am giving you example that instead of sun having form, he is sarva-vyāpaka. That is my point. The sun and the sunlight is nondifferent. The sunlight is sarva-vyāpaka, but the sun is localized. That is my point.
Indian man (7): Should we go back to the bullock cart age?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly. Then you will be sukhī. (Hindi) This is the first instruction: dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). (Hindi) This is the first instruction. (Hindi) This is the first to be given up in order to understand spiritual knowledge. (Hindi) So how you can expect tranquillity and peacefulness if the society is conducted by go-khara? This is the defect. (Hindi) This is the rule, nature's law. And if it is a fact... It is a fact. You believe or not believe; that is a different thing. (Hindi) Professor Kotovsky... (break) "Swamiji, after death, everything is finished." He said like that. And he is a big professor of Indology. (Hindi) ...sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). He is a professor. (Hindi) Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...mandāḥ, all bad men. Mandā sumanda-matayaḥ. And if he is supposed to be a good man, he will manufacture some mata, manda-mata, not approved by the śāstras. This is going on. They will not hear Kṛṣṇa. They will give quotation from Brahma-kumārī. This is the greatest defect of modern civilization, that they won't accept real authority. They will create some authority. Or rascal, he becomes authority. Especially in India, this is the drawback. In the Western countries they do not know much about this. Therefore they accept what I say. But here they bring so many. So such an important man, he is bringing authority, Brahma-kumārī, a house of prostitution. If he is bringing their quotation as authority, then what to speak of others? (break) Just like that Christian convent house. They supply woman to rich men, and they supply money. That's all. This is Brahma-kumārī. Rich man, the same disease is there—yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukha hi tuccham. So if they get facility for some maithuna, they will give you money. (Hindi) ...prostitute, for convent house. Hm? Brahmānanda? Convent house? What is that convent house? It is not prostitution? That's all.
Indian man (1): What is alternative? What do you do when...
Prabhupāda: No, no, alternative, that alternative will not correct. That is the defect of Gandhi's movement. He is supposed to be reading Bhagavad-gītā, but he has never said, recommended, Kṛṣṇa worship. That is the defect of his education. Rather, he denied the existence of Kṛṣṇa. "I don't believe if any person as Kṛṣṇa ever lived." This is his concept. Gandhi has written in his life that while his father was dying he was enjoying sex with his wife. You know that?
Indian man (2): Gandhiji?
Prabhupāda: Yes, he has written it.
Indian man (1): It is, after all, only...
Prabhupāda: No, no. After, he became a great sage. That is all right. But in the beginning everyone is subjected. Which way we shall...
Prabhupāda: But you cannot see them. Your philosophy is unless you see, you don't believe. That is your philosophy. But you do not consider what you can see. That is the defect of this imperfect world, that people do not think that they are imperfect. With all imperfectness, they think they are perfect. That is the defect. Therefore it is said, andha. One is blind, and he is becoming the leader of other blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Īśa-tantrya, by the laws of nature he is bound up very tight, hands and legs, and he is thinking he is free to think, free to see, free to... That is the defect. He is not at all free, completely under the clutches of material laws, and he is thinking that he is free. That is the defect. And when this sense comes, that "I am not free; everything is forced upon me," then he becomes human being. Otherwise he's a dog. Just like, you see, if a dog thinks he is free. He is jumping here, there. He is thinking, "I am independent," barking, attacking somebody.
Prabhupāda: That is the defect. Therefore we present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, no other way.
Indian man (2): Gandhi was a politician.
Dr. Patel: He was not a politician. He was more a bhakta than a politician. He fell in politics. He was a saintly man turned into a politician. He was more a saintly man than a politician. He failed in politics. I have seen it.
Prabhupāda: No, he was studied by the governor of Bengal that "Either Gandhi is a saintly man amongst the politicians or he is a politician among the saintly persons." (laughter)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Harikeśa is getting his visa today.
Prabhupāda: So we can return. (break) Whole educational system is defective because there is no spiritual education. That has made everything impossible.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One young boy in Johannesburg wanted to join us. He is sixteen years old. So his headmaster said, "What you will do without an education?" They think that this is the greatest ignorance. These are the leaders of education, the headmaster. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...spiritual education, he remains an animal. That's all. (break) That is Vedānta-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā. To find out the ultimate goal, that is education. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), "Wherefrom everything is coming," that is education.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they may say, "That is not practical, because we will starve to death with such knowledge."
Prabhupāda: Then... Then you are useless. Because you cannot go to the ultimate point of education, therefore your education is useless.
Prabhupāda: So why so many desires? Because one desire is not complete, therefore you desire next. Therefore the process of desiring is defective, and our process is to purify the desires, not to remain in the imperfect platform of desiring, but whatever desire you have got, just purify it. Then it will be satisfied. So desire produced by bodily concept of life will never be satisfied. Therefore some of them are trying to become desireless, the impersonalists. Nirvāṇa.
Brahmānanda: That is also impossible.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Hospitals, there are many, but real hospitals... to cure the material disease, there is no hospital. They are... There are hundreds and thousands of hospitals for curing the disease of the body, but there is no hospital to cure the disease of the soul. That is the defect. So we are opening hospital for curing the disease of the soul. They have no information about the soul throughout the whole world. Even so-called religious organizations, they have no information about the soul. They go to religious ceremonies for material profit. They do not know what is the necessity of the soul and what is the disease of the soul. They do not know. (break) ...nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. What is the goal of life, these people, they do not know, mūḍhas. Mūḍha means rascals, gadha. They do not know what is the goal of life. They take calculation of the duration of life, that fifty, sixty, or hundred years. That's all. Beyond this, after this, they do not know. Yes. That is the defect. (break) Now, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that this temporary attempt to become happy-antavanta phalaṁ teṣām—it will end with the end of the body. But they do not know beyond this. Therefore alpam-medhasām, they are less intelligent. Just like a child playing. He likes to play and does not go to school. So do you think that is all right?
Prabhupāda: So therefore we are doing like that. We are concerned that "I have got this body. Let me enjoy to the fullest extent and don't mind what I am going to have in future. It doesn't matter."
Indian man (3): You get attracted by a lot of side attractions.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And the education is so defective that even university students, if I say that "You are going to be a dog," they say, "What is the harm if I become?" They say like that. The education is so defective, they don't mind to become a dog. They think, "It is a facility to become a dog because I can have sex on the street without any restrictions."
Indian man (3): Yes. I mean they have lost their self-respect for that.
Prabhupāda: No consideration. They are actually like cats and dogs. This is going on. (break) Nobody knows what is soul; nobody knows what is the goal of life; nobody knows what is the necessity of the soul. These things are not discussed, neither they know it. So-called religious institution or so-called..., they do not know. It is only mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, and that... They do not take care of this Bhagavad-gītā. They manufacture their own ways of...
Prabhupāda: Change—if they become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Harikeśa: But the system itself is defective. How can...
Prabhupāda: No, the defective will be correct when you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like in your past life you had so many defects. Now it is corrected. That is practical.
Harikeśa: Let's say somebody is a minister...
Prabhupāda: Anybody.
Harikeśa: ...but his occupation is cheating.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let him become Kṛṣṇa conscious. He will stop this cheating business.
Harikeśa: But he has to stop.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Rājarṣi.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has to stop. It will be stopped as soon as he becomes a devotee.
Prabhupāda: Because man is more intelligent. He can misuse his independence and intelligence, whereas animal cannot do that. He is not so intelligent. He has... That is the defect of the modern civilization. They have been described as duṣkṛtina. Duṣkṛtina means he has got brain more intelligent than the animal, but the brain is being utilized for mischievous activities. Therefore they are called duṣkṛtina. Brain should be utilized for some benevolent work for the good of the living entities. But this brain, modern educated brain, is being misused for discovering something which is very dangerous to the human society. Therefore duṣkṛtina. And he is getting Nobel Prize because he has discovered this atomic weapon which is so dangerous, and he is glorified, "Oh, you have done so nice scientific discovery." What is that discovery? "That you can kill... Instead of one man with gun, you can kill one thousand men. Therefore you must be offered Nobel Prize." This is man's appreciation.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So he is better off than the karmī.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmī has no knowledge, what is the aim of life, but jñānī is understanding that "I have executed material activities so long, but I have not become happy. Then what is the reason?" That is jñānī. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. "What is real life?" But because they are not trained up as bhakta, they come to the conclusion of "The impersonal Brahman is the final." That is the defect. So anyway, they are better than the karmīs.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the jñānīs are very rare though, aren't they?
Prabhupāda: Eh? No, bhaktas are rare. (break) ...churches here?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is a school, convent school. There is one church here, another church across the street, a third over there and a fourth down the street from where we live. This church has a big food program, but they sell it. They don't distribute freely. They have about twelve vans. Congregational food... All these garages. They have vans, a big truck.
Prabhupāda: But they eat meat.
Prabhupāda: That is their defect. If my dream is wrong, why your dream should be right? That they did not conceive of, that "My dream is right(?)." And if you say that "Your dream is also wrong," yes, I do not dream. I take the facts from the authority. We do not dream. Dream is dream, either yours or mine. It doesn't matter.
Brahmānanda: Well, some people question whether that Aquarian Gospel is authority.
Prabhupāda: Why Bible is authority? Who cares for Bible? Nobody cares for Bible. So there, some supporter for some book, these, you will always find it. Huh? Now they are decrying, deriding Bible also. So how do you say that Bible is authority when so many things have changed?
Brahmānanda: Even they are changing their interpretation of the...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harikeśa: But that's assuming that God has a body, or there even is a God.
Prabhupāda: Huh? But that is... You are blind rascal, you cannot see. That does not mean that He has no body. You cannot see even the president's body here. That means president has no body? You rascal, you cannot understand. Because you cannot see the president's body, you cannot say, "No, the president is bodyless." That is your defect. You become qualified to see the president. You'll see he has got a body. Those who are not qualified to see him, they can say that he has not body. But why he has no body? śāstra says. So if you remain fools and rascals, that is another thing, but He has a body. Iśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda, Brahmā is saying. Why He has no body? Sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (Bs. 5.1). Vigraha means body.
Prabhupāda: Neither. Neither of these things because He hasn't got material body. You have got this material body; therefore you have got all these defects.
Indian man (5): Sometimes it was seen that the people that don't eat, then their body becomes very weak. Then the soul leaves the body after some time. People when they don't eat, their body becomes very weak, the soul leaves the body. Practically it has been seen.
Brahmānanda: Weak? Weak? The body becomes weak when they don't eat?
Indian man (5): Yes.
Prabhupāda: So that is all for the material body. Weakness or strength or dwindling or becoming old is ṣad-avikara. Ṣad-avikara means birth, then growth, then sustenance, then by-products, then dwindling, then finish. This ṣad-avikara, six kinds of changes, are meant for the material body, not for the spiritual.
Prabhupāda: The bodily consciousness is also material. That is also one. And the soul consciousness, spiritual, that is also one. That is ekatvam. So for a learned person there is no defect. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini, paṇḍitaḥ samaḥ (BG 5.18). This is the... So anyone who is under the bodily conception of life, either human beings or dogs, they are the same. But that upādhi amongst human being is stronger than the cats and dogs. The human being, being advanced in consciousness, they are making this nationalism. But it is nothing but dogism. Is it not? That's all. The so-called national people are sacrificing so many lives, so many politicians, Napoleon and these big, big leaders. But what is their business? Business is that doggish mentality: "I am this body." So it is very difficult to give up this doggish mentality that "I am this body." Very, very difficult.
Prabhupāda: But what you can see, rascal? Therefore we say you are rascals. Why do you believe your eyes? You cannot see so many things. We don't find any living entity in the ocean. Does it mean there is no living entity? So what is the value of your seeing? That is the defect. They believe in too much their eyes. Although eyes are... Every sense is imperfect. You can see here: "Oh, we don't find anything. It is all zero." Does it mean the sky is zero? There are millions of planets and millions of living entities. So that is their rascaldom. They think that they are perfect. Whatever they see, that is perfect. That is their mistake. If I say, "No, there is no life. I cannot see," is that very good statement? And in the..., externally you don't find any living entity, but is it void of living entities? Then why shall I assert that "There is no living... I cannot see"? Is that very good proposal? Therefore they are rascals. There cannot be any place within this universe which is without life. There cannot be. We see there is life even within sand. How you can say there is no life? "Because I cannot see." What is this argument? What you are? You are a rascal. Because you cannot see, therefore we have to accept? First of all we say you are rascal. And if he says that "I cannot see," is it to be accepted? And the example is there. "I cannot see any life. It is simply water." But there are millions and trillions of life, big, big fish. Where is your perfection of seeing?
Prabhupāda: There is no method.
Dr. Patel: But they means secular means no dharma. That is their definition. It is a wrong definition.
Prabhupāda: That is a defect of the government, that they do not know what is spiritual life. They have no knowledge. Mūḍhas. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). They do not know this. They cannot also explain what is the aim of life. That Professor Kotovsky, such a big man, he said, "Swamijī, after death everything is finished."
Dr. Patel: Bhasmi bhūtasya śarīrasya kutaḥ...
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is this philosophy. This philosophy is prominent all over the world. They are... "So long this body is there, enjoy it to the utmost. And after death everything is finished." Bas.
Dr. Patel: To go beyond intellect for a body conscious ego, the ego must dissolve and find itself to be a jīva, and then he travels further up to find his own identity and his own relation with God. Before, I mean, mind is one, you cannot go beyond it. That is what my conjecture. I may be wrong for all that.
Prabhupāda: No, no. One has to go beyond the mind, but one, those who are stuck up with the mind, they are useless. So the Western philosophers, they are stuck up with the mind. That is the defect. (break) ...bhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. Manorathena, mental concoction, asataḥ. Western philosophers, they take the mind as the soul. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Hm?
Dr. Patel: Yes. And the Communists think even the matter is more important than the mind. What do you call? Dialectical materialism, that the matter produces consciousness. It is not the consciousness which, I mean, collects matter around it. That is their philosophy. That is this dialectical materialism. They are absolutely wrong. They are even further down than the Western philosophers, mental philosophers.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...is already mentioned in Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: They were, they were belonging to the Aryan family. The Europeans, they were also Aryan family, and Indians, the Arabians, Persians, they were all Aryan family. And the Americans they also migrated from Europe. They are also Aryans. But that is familywise. But actually Aryan means one who is advanced in civilization. That is Aryan. Therefore when Kṛṣṇa chastised Arjuna, He addressed him, "non-Aryan." "You are not talking like Aryan." Anārya juṣṭam. "You are talking like non-Aryan." (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Aryan means advanced. The first-class civilized men are the Aryans. So that standard of Aryan civilization is to understand God, Viṣṇu, and go back to. This is perfectional. Yato vā imani (indistinct) bhūtāni jayante. To understand it. And again return back to Him. The modern civilization, they are completely unaware of God, neither they know it that going back to home, back to Godhead, is perfection of civilization. This is the defect.
Prabhupāda: Then there is no professional driver?
Mahāṁsa: Well, now we are going to hire one driver to take care of the bulls. And secondly, even the axle of the cart was a little defective. Otherwise the program was a great success.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is success. People were coming.
Mahāṁsa: Yes. And one person came to the temple in Hyderabad and met me. He said that "After your devotees had a program in our village, the farmers in the evening they were coming and doing kīrtana instead of just..." Previously they were not doing anything, but now they are coming after farming. In the evening they are collecting and they are doing kīrtana together.
Prabhupāda: Just see how quickly there will be response. Therefore I was insisting, "Go village to village, town to town." Caitanya Mahāprabhu's prediction, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi.
Prabhupāda: So in every center they must rise early in the morning. They must follow the regulative principles. They must attend class. Otherwise let them go out. We don't want. And if anyone wants to marry, first of all he must show that he has some earning capacity. Not that "Because there are so many girls, and I marry one to satisfy my senses..." I thought that boy was nice, and I heard all these stories. That is also another defect, that we have got young boys and young girls open for lovemaking. And brahmacārī means strictly prohibited to see the face of woman. But we cannot stop it. That is also another defect. Fire is good and butter is good, but when they come together everything become bad. Is it not? Fire is good, just like heat. And butter is good, healthy. But when they come together the butter melts and the fire extinguished. This is māyā's arrangement. Puṁsa striyā mithunī-bhāvam etam. This whole world is going on by the sex attraction, and when they come together both of them become spoiled. Therefore it has to be dealt with very, very carefully, so many rules, regulation. (break) ...used, Nitāi?
Nitāi: Whenever there is necessity.
Prabhupāda: Compulsory.
Prabhupāda: Why do you blame them? We are also doing. Nobody is following. That is animalism. They have got direction, but they won't follow. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jaya! Jaya! Mr. Sar, why don't you come and see how things are going on. You are expert in...
Mr. Sar: Nicely sir. I see it every day. Very good concrete building.
Prabhupāda: So if there is any defect.
Mr. Sar: It is perfectly...,
Prabhupāda: Now we want to finish this. If you have got any good contact on labor?
Mr. Sar: Contact labor? Labor contact?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (some short discussion) We want to finish as soon as possible and give another set of contract. Labor contract.
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. I'll try to find out. (some discussion about contractors)
Prabhupāda: (break) ...is the form where the animal can take education and become a human being.
Harikeśa: I taught them all, and they're all using it now. Or they will all be using it.
Prabhupāda: They like it?
Harikeśa: Oh, yes. The best.
Prabhupāda: Huh? The only defect is that all the ingredients are not very finely powdered. If it is very finely powdered, then it will be very nice.
Lokanātha: You are perfect in all respects. You are your own doctor...
Prabhupāda: I am not doctor, but I created many doctors. (break) (to Dr. Patel:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jaya. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: (Hindi: ap lok hamye sa chaye) I have decided not to come today with you. Because I was driven away yesterday morning by your men. I came to look after you.
Prabhupāda: How is that?
Dr. Patel: God only knows. They have behaved so very badly, be three of us. And you were not sleeping even, because I wanted to give you the prescription, so I ran from my house.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Haṁsadūta: No, I was not...
Dr. Patel: No, you were not.
Hariśauri: No, I was there. You had just taken rest in the bedroom, so I thought it best not to disturb you.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, I was taking rest.
Prabhupāda: That is called māyā. (everyone laughs) The light is here, but it appears light is there. This is called māyā. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jaya. The real world is the spiritual world, and here it is simply a reflection, but we are taking this is real world, and spiritual, there is no spiritual. Yathā bhāsaḥ tathā tamo. So Śaṅkarācārya said that this world is false, jagan mithya. So, but brahma satyam, he gave the same information. But we are taking this jagat satyam, and there is no spiritual world. This is the defect. Just like.... (aside:) That's all right. ...the mirage, the foolish animal goes after the water in the desert, but there is no water. He is bewildered. But that does not means there is no water anywhere else. There is water, but this mirage water is false. Similarly, this material world is false, but that does not mean there is no spiritual world. The water is somewhere else. That you do not know. But you are after this mirage, water in the desert. (Hindi conversation with man, about water) (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Yatra tri-sargo'mṛṣā. Tejo vāri-mṛdāṁ vinimayo yatra tri-sargo'mṛṣā dhāmnā svena sadā nirasta-kuhakaṁ satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1). Vyāsadeva offers his respect to the real truth, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi, where there is no mirage, there is no false world; real world.
Prabhupāda: But Machiavelli also does not know who is the proprietor. That is the defect. Machiavelli also does not know. He's also another fool. So long you do not know who is the proprietor, then...
Harikeśa: But it's true. Might does make right.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa is the strongest.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the proprietor." But they'll not accept it. Kṛṣṇa says, the real proprietor says, that "I am the bhokta. Sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29)." But they are so rascal that they will deny the existence of Kṛṣṇa or God, or the real proprietor. They claim to be proprietor for a few days, and they, by one slap of Kṛṣṇa's hand, they finished all proprietorship, and they are going, struggling. This ignorance is prevailing all over the world. Does not know who is the proprietor, how I became proprietor, how I shall be enjoying. Nothing. The same thing, the dog philosophy: if the dog secures a morsel of bread, he's thinking, "I am proprietor." Another one snatches: "I am proprietor." This is going on. But the dog has no sense that none of us will be proprietor. So when you know who is the proprietor, then this Īśopaniṣad.... Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything, God's property. You enjoy for livelihood what is given to you. That's all.
| Page Title: | Defect (Conv. 1975) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 06 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=128, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 128 |