Śyāmasundara: So we should propose this to Skinner: "We will accept your process if you take direction from us."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: He accepts that there should be some process, but he doesn't know what it is. He obviously has not...
Prabhupāda: The process is, just like we say, Vedic injunction: sa gurum eva abhigacchet. He must approach guru.
Atreya Ṛṣi: His idea is that the process should be man-controlled. Our society is being controlled by man.
Prabhupāda: It is man-controlled. It is man-controlled. Our society is being controlled by me.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the best way to release the beneficial energy in the people is to build a world in which people are naturally good and in which they are rewarded for wanting what is good for their culture.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is Kṛṣṇa society. The atheists, let him study, let him come, let him understand.
Devotee: His critics... The critics of this theory that we can condition everyone to a certain program are very fearful that someone unscrupulous will be driving us on.
Prabhupāda: No. That we cannot take, I mean, to accept guru as unscrupulous. Therefore we take paramparā. He is coming directly from God. He is perfect. Therefore this paramparā system is bona fide. We cannot accept any rascal to become guru. Guru must be in the paramparā system. He is receiving the knowledge directly from God, Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: This is their dilemma now, that they cannot find any standard of behavior. Formerly people's behavior was motivated by deprivation. They wanted more economic gain because there was hunger. But now we have everything, so no one wants to work anymore. So now there is nothing that satisfies people enough to make them behave.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the Vedānta gives for him: athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now we have got enough to eat, enough to enjoy. Now we inquire about Brahman. This is the business we should (indistinct). So this is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are giving knowledge about Brahman, or the Supreme. We are not concerned about giving you some scientific invention, some this invention, that invention. We are giving the ultimate benefit. Now, just like I have come to America with this hope, that "Americans are not properly (indistinct), they have no (indistinct) problems. If I go there, if I speak to them about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they will be able to take." So if we, the human society, has come to such standard, then the next point is, now they should eat peacefully, sleep peacefully and sense gratification peacefully and, making the mind peaceful, inquire about the Supreme Absolute. This is ideal life.
Śyāmasundara: This will provide the stimulus which will..., so the people will react favorably, to behave favorably, simply by performing these activities?
Prabhupāda: The experience is... We have got experience that this material world is full of misery. Everyone will (agree). Otherwise why he is trying to adjust? Now we have got information from Bhagavad-gītā,
- mām upetya tu kaunteya
- duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
- nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
- saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gataḥ
- (BG 8.15)
Kṛṣṇa says, "Anyone who comes to Me, back to home, back to Godhead, he does not come again to this material world which is full of misery." Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti... (BG 8.15).
Śyāmasundara: But then what is the stimulus? Why will they...?
Prabhupāda: This is stimulus. You are (indistinct) suffering miserable condition of life, and we are offering that "You take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you go to a place where only there is blissful life and knowledge." What is that?
Devotee: Ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ (BG 8.16).
Prabhupāda: No. Mām upetya.
Devotee: Mām upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate. "From the highest planet in this material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death takes place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again."
Prabhupāda: So there are many others. There are many planets, that is a fact. So there is a planet where Kṛṣṇa lives, and if you go there, you live perfectly. You are trying to go to the moon planet, but here it says, ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino... (BG 8.16) What is that? (break)
Śyāmasundara: So we have to condition people that every time they press our button, Hare Kṛṣṇa button, they get some pleasure.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Ceto-darpaṇa... Every time he gets some higher knowledge, and his dirty heart he can clean. And therefore his spiritual beliefs become (indistinct). Whereas in the material world, what it says, ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ...
Devotee: Punar āvartino 'rjuna.
Devotee (2): Again returning. Mām upetya tu kaunteya.
Prabhupāda: Read the translation.
Devotee: "From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again."
Prabhupāda: In the material world there are higher planetary systems, lower planetary systems, and we sometimes go higher planetary, sometimes down, according to our karma. But wherever you remain, you cannot avoid birth, death, old age and disease. "But if you come to My planet, then there is no more birth." What is that objection of this (indistinct)?