Prabhupāda: So our point is that if he was not on the platform of mokṣa, liberation, why did he waste his time by spoiling himself and for spoiling others? Now he has come to his senses, that is good, but it is to be understood that he simply spoiled his time and spoiled others' career by misleading them. Thus, without being liberated, nobody can guide anyone. That is useless. That is andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If you have no eyes, then how can you lead others? If you are blind and they are blind, then what is the use of becoming their leaders? Actually all the so-called leaders and scholars, they are blind themselves, and they have become big, big leader. That is the misfortune of the present life. And therefore our proposition is you take direction from Kṛṣṇa and His representative. That's all. That will help you. Try to understand this point. Our system, paramparā system, is that I am just like disciple of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. I don't say that I am liberated. I am conditioned. But because I am following the instruction of Bhaktisiddhānta, I'm liberated. This is the distinction between conditioned and liberated. When one is under the direction of a liberated person . . . the same thing: electricity. The copper is not electricity, but when it is charged with electricity, if it is touched, that is electricity. And similarly, this paramparā system, the electricity is going. If you cut the paramparā system, then there is no electricity. Therefore it is stressed so much: sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa (BG 4.2). The electricity is lost. These people, they do not know. Now, at the fag end of life, they are thinking, if intelligent person, that "What I have done actually?" If one has sense, he should come to this understanding. By cutting some . . . what is that? Dead trees? The civil disobedience began by cutting dead trees. Is it not? Vinoba Bhave, he began his leadership forty years ago by cutting . . . Gandhi also, civil disobedience. So this kind of leadership might have been little enthusiasm for the time being, but actually what people gain by that, such leadership?
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) . . . he thought anta-kāle 'pi brahma-nirvāṇam (BG 2.72).
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Patel: He thought anta-kāle 'pi brahma-nirvāṇam. He thinks that way, that in the last moment he is . . . come to that stage, he will be . . .
Prabhupāda: That is very good, but we should know also that so long, whatever he has done, that is from the blind platform, so nobody has gained anything. And if it was on the real platform, then svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). So kṛṣṇa-bhakti is such nice thing that even a little . . . there are many places it is confirmed that even a person in kṛṣṇa-bhakti stage falls down, being immature, what is the loss there? Bhāgavata . . . what is the loss there?
Dr. Patel: There is no loss. Kṛṣṇa said, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate (BG 6.41).
Prabhupāda: So that is the . . . if kṛṣṇa-bhakti, a little done . . . and what does he gain? If he does not take kṛṣṇa-bhakti and does a duty, what does he gain? Abhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ. Abhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ. He is strictly following his occupational duty, but he's not a bhakta, what does he gain? Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer (SB 1.5.17). Can anyone quote this verse?
Dr. Patel: Bhakti is your . . . sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). If you do your . . .
Prabhupāda: That is the beginning. That is the beginning. That is also bhakti. But bhakti means he must be conscious that "Kṛṣṇa is my Lord. I have to serve Him." That is the beginning of bhakti.
Dr. Patel: If he is not conscious, how can he do work for Him?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the beginning. Then it becomes purified more and more and more and more by service. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). Then he realizes his position. Svayam eva sphuraty . . . the more he advances in sevonmukha, by service, God becomes revealed to him. And then buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. Then as he becomes more confidential, then he is imparted buddhi-yogam, means bhakti-yoga. What is that bhakti-yoga? Yena mām upayānti te: "That bhakti-yoga, by which he can come back to Me." Not that bhakti-yoga means you remain here in this rotten place. Yena mām upayānti te. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam (BG 10.10). He can receive that buddhi-yoga. What is that buddhi-yoga? Yena mām upayānti. So this is required. This is the ultimate goal of life.