Dr. Patel: Dharmasya means that dharma which is affixed to find(?) God is dharma.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). You can understand Kṛṣṇa only by bhakti, not by jñāna, yoga, karma. So a little bhakti will help you to make further progress. It is... No... Now, what is that? "It is never lost." What is that verse? Nehābhikrama-nāśo 'sti (BG 2.40).
Dr. Patel: Nehābhikrama-nāśo 'sti.
Prabhupāda: Nāśo 'sti. So if you do little, it will remain ever, permanently. Then you will make increase. You'll increase again.
Indian (1): As soon as you start chanting, bhakti starts, and then further development is the result of chanting?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But if we think that "I am chanting. I can do all nonsense," then it is wrong.
Dr. Patel: First of all, sir, it is the "I-ness" which must go. And you must surrender your "I" at the sacred feet of...
Prabhupāda: No, no, "I-ness" is there. If I decide, "I shall not do anything which is not for Kṛṣṇa..."
Dr. Patel: I did not mean that, sir. Your "I-ness" means your ego must be sacrificed at the feet of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, ego is...
Indian (1): How will it go unless the chanting...
Dr. Patel: Unless you surrender yourself.
Indian (1): Even the chanting will go with that ego.
Prabhupāda: Ego, ego is there, but false and right.
Dr. Patel: False ego.
Prabhupāda: False ego is that "I am Patel. I am Patel" (laughter) And real ego is "I am Kṛṣṇa's servant."
Indian (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: This is ego.
Indian (1): Real ego. That is the reason. That is the reason.
Prabhupāda: So long I'll think that "I am Patel. I am master of this man..." (Dr. Patel talking simultaneously) (Hindi) People are, I mean to say, entangled with these all upādhis. So therefore bhakti begins when one is upādhi-less. No more upādhi. Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). That is real ego.
Dr. Patel: That is complete submersion of your ego. Dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsa. I mean, after śarīra...
Prabhupāda: (break) ...mānasa deha geha, yo kichu mora, arpiluṅ tuwā pade, nanda-kiśora. Nanda-kiśora... (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: You hand over the steer of your...
Prabhupāda: Yes. The next line is mārobi rākhobi, yo icchā tohārā. (Hindi) This is surrender.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, that reminds me of a story that I read that one man, one English lord, had gone on a pigeon shooting. I told once this story. And he had got lot of pigeons in a gunny bag, and he would allow one pigeon to go and shoot. One pigeon, instead of flying, fell down at his feet. He could not shoot it. Like that. And this reminds me, this story, always reminds me, this complete surrender. He could not shoot that.
Dr. Patel: So God will not mara na(?). He will never maro, cannot maro, because you are at His very feet.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He is supplying everything without any surrendering. (Hindi) But that care and outside-the-jail care, there is little difference. In the prison house, even one is very highly qualified, and if he applies for some good post, he will not be given. He'll not be given. But outside the prison? "Yes, you are qualified. Come on." The same government, the same man, but so long one is criminal, there is no consideration. (break) Yes, regularly I get at one o'clock.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One night Prabhupāda rang the buzzer; it was twelve-thirty.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda was translating.
Prabhupāda: Yes, sometimes earlier.
Dr. Patel: I get up at three-thirty. It is not possible to get up at one o'clock. You must not be sleeping...
Prabhupāda: Not more than three hours. I go to sleep at ten and I get up at one.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) You get less sleep when... (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, ultimate success is, nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau **, when you can conquer over nidrā, sleeping, āhāra, eating, because animal life means āhāra nidrā bhaya maithuna. And spiritual life means you have to conquer over this. That is spiritual life. (Hindi) In spiritual life...
Dr. Patel: You'll have me drinking tea.
Prabhupāda: No, everyone, not you.