Prabhupāda: Ambiguity means he is not clear in his knowledge. What is religion and what is liberation—these things he does not know clearly. (French)
Jyotirmayī: He says that now they are using religion for their own interests and for their own goals.
Prabhupāda: Who is that man? (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said all the social forces in India wants to keep their own privileges.
Prabhupāda: So? The communist does not? (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that in Marxism there is no religious references.
Prabhupāda: But the, what is called, terrorism facility, there is. There is no religious sentiment, but there is terrorism sentiment. Some sentiment is there. (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that yesterday in Assam seven student have been killed, but is it the communists who killed them?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jyotirmayī: He's saying, is it the communists who killed them?
Prabhupāda: Communists killed others?
Yogeśvara: Seven students in Assam. (French)
Jyotirmayī: So he said that in India all the planners of the government, they are religious people. Some of them are brāhmaṇas, but still they have been arresting forty-thousand people working on the railways for no good reason. So that's why he said that religion is used by the people for their own privileges.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. (French)
Devotee: What he's trying to say is that some people are using...
Karandhara: No, it's clear. It's clear. (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said one should ask a question not according to what one thinks about religion, but what is being used now.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot think, you cannot think of religion. Our conception of religion is different. (French for some time)
Prabhupāda: Where are Satsvarūpa and Karandhara? Where gone? They do not want to hear? They have become...?
Bhagavān: They're calling Africa.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bhagavān: They may be on the phone with Africa. I'm not sure.
Jyotirmayī: So he said that here in France, the Christians, they are now reviewing their own Christianity, their own philosophy, because they see that the materialistic people, they are giving critiques, and they are right in their critiques. So they are changing their religion.
Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying that religion has to be defined according to the way the mass of people accept it.
Prabhupāda: That is not religion. That is sentiment. (French)
Devotee: (To Prabhupāda, as Frenchman speaks in French:) They're on the phone speaking with Brahmānanda Mahārāja.
Jyotirmayī: So he says that those who have been just religious and working for the independence, they didn't do any real good.
Prabhupāda: Now, first of all, our proposition is what does he mean by religion? (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that there cannot be an abstract definition of religion, but only the experience of religion.
Prabhupāda: No, we have got definition of religion. Let him learn from us. (French)
Jyotirmayī: So he says that "I know what is religion, but what brings religion in the concrete life, in day to day life? What good brings religion in the life?"
Yogeśvara: He said, "Even, even if I were to learn your definition of religion, the important thing is how it is practiced. Not just words," he says, "the important thing is how it is lived, how people live their..."
Prabhupāda: Yes. The practice. It is practiced... Those who are real religionists, they practice it. (French)
Jyotirmayī: So he said this is a real problem, how to practice religion, not only on the individual platform, but also on the social platform.
Prabhupāda: No, we are teaching, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are teaching how to practice religion. (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that even though he himself is materialist and atheist, he propagates this in his articles, in his newspaper, you know, he propagates certain aspects of religion.
Prabhupāda: No. First of all, we must know what is religion, and what is atheist or what is theist. First of all, if we know what is religion, then we can define who is following, who is not following. (French)
Jyotirmayī: So he said what he can give is his own experience of religion and what he is propagating when he talks in his articles...
Prabhupāda: What is his experience of religion? (French)
Jyotirmayī: So he said that in Hinduism, what he thinks is the best...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Religion is not meant for Hindus or Christians—for everyone. So there must be a general definition of religion. (French)
Jyotirmayī: So he said that his idea is that advaita-vedānta philosophy is the best in the world?
Prabhupāda: What is that advaita? What is that advaita? (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that advaita-vedānta...
Prabhupāda: What is that advaita-veda philosophy? Let him define. (French)
Jyotirmayī: Advaita. A means without. Dvaita...
Prabhupāda: "Without"?
Yogeśvara: "Not." Dvaita means dual. So non-dual.
Jyotirmayī: Non-dual. "There is not two." This is advaita.
Prabhupāda: So what is that one? (French)
Yogeśvara: So what I think this gentleman is explaining is that he finds the idea of non-dualism very attractive because he says that if a real religion is to fulfill it's responsibilities, then it will not try to teach its followers that there are two separate things, there is the creation, and there is you, the creator, that there is you.
Jyotirmayī: Creator.
Yogeśvara: That there is a creator and then you, but rather, that there is a harmony with the individual being and the totality of existence, not just on an individual religious level, but also socially. So in other words, he's seeing that this advaita philosophy, this non-dual philosophy is very nice on the political or social level as well since it teaches a kind of unity of the individual with everything.
Prabhupāda: This is not very clear. (laughs) Now, dualism means two, and monism is one. So he says monism, advaita. So monism, what is the center of monism? (French)
Yogeśvara: So he says that to discuss what is that center of monism is not as important as it is living the...
Prabhupāda: But you cannot... If you have no objective, then you cannot live in one way. (French for some time)
Prabhupāda: (aside:) I'm feeling hot.
Yogeśvara: He says...
Prabhupāda: Yes?
Yogeśvara: ...that before... He says perhaps it would be worthwhile, he finds it worthwhile, before trying to make any definitions about the center, to first free man from all of the things that are keeping him enslaved today. In other words, before we can build a platform for...
Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is the meaning of freedom, how you can make them free? (French)
Yogeśvara: So he says the best answer he can give you is an answer that he heard from Maharishi, he said, a very good answer, that before you can come to defining anything positively, first we must say, neti neti: "It is not this, it is not that." Then we have decided what it is not.
Prabhupāda: That I am therefore asking. Whatever he is proposing, I say neti: "It is not" defining. (French)
Yogeśvara: You better translate that one.
Pṛthu Putra: He says that the answer of that is very often come, although it doesn't have to come with a name of God because the name of God is very often utilized to mystify the people.
Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying, "I know what you want to get me to say. You want me to say that the center is God." But he's saying, "I'd rather not say that because that's too mystical."
Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of talking if you do not know the central point? He says that to come to the truth, neti neti. So we must come to the truth. So we must find out first of all truth. Then we discuss the other, subordinate things. (French) Neti neti means "Not this, not this," means to search out the truth. (French for some time, devotees try to explain Prabhupāda's challenges, RM makes a long speech.)
Bhagavān: The first thing is he's talking for too long, and you're missing the point. It's getting confusing. Ask him, first of all, to speak a little shorter. (French)
Yogeśvara: So he said, what he's suggesting is that first of all, we'd be better off not giving it some kind of concrete form because he thinks ultimately the silence is the best answer.
Prabhupāda: Then let him learn that. If silence is best, then don't talk.
Yogeśvara: Well, he says, still, we can give it some form for discussion purposes.
Prabhupāda: Then what is his silence? Silence means don't talk. If you prefer silence, then don't talk. (French)
Yogeśvara: He suggests, "Well, In that case, if we're going to discuss the Absolute Truth, then you can say that the ultimate is..."
Prabhupāda: But he raised that Absolute Truth is non-dual.
Yogeśvara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Non-dual.
Yogeśvara: Tat tvam asi. He's saying, "We are that."
Prabhupāda: So then, then why he raised the question of Absolute Truth, non-dualism, neti neti? This is the discussion of Absolute Truth. So why he says, "For the time being, let us become silent"?
Bhagavān: Yes, he's saying... Oh, it's hard. In other words, he's saying, "Let's get rid of everything that's not the Absolute Truth, and not talk about actually what is the Absolute Truth yet."
Yogeśvara: Yeah, that's the point.
Bhagavān: He's just saying, "Let's get rid of..." (to RM:) You understand a little English? "Let's get rid of this bad situation, let's get rid of this bad situation, and let's not talk about really what the truth is yet because we don't know. Let's be silent about that. Let's just work to get rid of the bad elements." This is how he's trying to practice his philosophy. In other words, if there is this political problem here, let's get rid of this, and let's get rid of this one, but let's not talk about what actually the goal is yet.
Pṛthu Putra: Then he said that... (French)
Yogeśvara: Just for example, he says that Kṛṣṇa was urging Arjuna to fight. He says, well, that fight has two meanings. One is the historic sense, and the other one is that it's a struggle inside ourselves to get freed of all of the bad situations, to get free of our false ego, to get free of our pride.
Bhagavān: The question is "What is he aiming at?"
Prabhupāda: Unless we understand that what is his aim of discussion, then how we can make progress? (Yogeśvara mentions something in French about Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna) No, why you are bringing Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna? First of all, let us know what is the aim of our discussion, the subject matter of discussion. (French for some time)
Jyotirmayī: His main point when he quotes Bhagavad-gītā is to show that it is a philosophy of action, it is dynamic, that Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna to fight. So there was a war. It is dynamics, not just sentiment, philosophy. It is active.
Yogeśvara: Yeah. Neti, neti. Getting rid of the bad elements.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is practical, practical action. Yes. (French)
Yogeśvara: So he says, "Therefore we're coming back to our original point of discussion which is that real religion is not a question of a man's motives, but it's a question of his actions."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yogeśvara: "What it motivates, what does a man do, how his religion is lived. That's a point."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are preaching. In Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not sitting idly and smoking gāñjā. It is not like that. (French)
Yogeśvara: So what he's saying is that, "Yes, in this connection, I can compliment you (Śrīla Prabhupāda) for the work that you are doing because," from what he has experienced, "most of the people who are coming from India to preach about Kṛṣṇa, talk about Kṛṣṇa to old people or people who actually don't have any use for Hinduism or spirituality except as a kind of diversion or a drug."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yogeśvara: So I think, if I understood.
Prabhupāda: I agree. I agree. He's right. He's right. He's right.
Pṛthu Putra: He wasn't appreciating exactly.
Bhagavān: Did he appreciate? First of all...
Pṛthu Putra: He doesn't appreciate what we are doing exactly. He says, he says, with his Indian, with his Indian, what he's doing with his Indian, what is the name of it...?
Bhagavān: Francend. (Name of paper?)
Jyotirmayī: Franscend.
Pṛthu Putra: Franscend. He says there is many swami and writer come from India and teach to the people, to the western people, what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Indian philosophy, what is God, but they always teach the people who need to be safe, to be, who need something to be safe, and they take it like just a drug or some kind of a dream just to get something to get safe from the material world. But that doesn't mean their action is concrete. That is his point.
Prabhupāda: But we are not doing that. We are, in the material world, we are teaching Kṛṣṇa philosophy, practicing. All these young men, they are actually twenty-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are different from them. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He thinks that the people in western world, mostly now they take Indian religion, some religion or philosophy come from India, because the Christian philosophy has some defect.
Prabhupāda: Very good. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says the religions that come from India are infinitely richer than the religion we know in the West. And we cannot see only one aspect. He says there is so many faces in Indian religions.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In... The idea of philosophy and religion, that is originated from India. There is no doubt about it. And that original idea of philosophy is practically demonstrated by Kṛṣṇa. The ideal original ideal of religion and philosophy is preached by Kṛṣṇa. And all the ācāryas followed that. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He said that is the distinction between the dogmatic aspect between the Hindu religions and the western religion.
Bhagavān: What is that? (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says the western or the Christian religion are marked by dogmatists and they are very...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Pṛthu Putra: And they have imperialist conception.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Yogeśvara: He says that western religions are narrow-minded, that they don't have the openness that the religions of the East have in India, for example. And that the West has this capitalist, imperialistic tendency which is also supported by its religion.
Prabhupāda: No. First... Therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says we can't say... His point is we can't say something. There is so many aspects of religion. There is the bhakti-yoga, by love and by heart. There is the karma-yoga, by action. There's jñāna-yoga, by knowledge. He says if in western countries, we propagate bhakti-yoga, we take the risk of using bhakti-yoga like a drug or something like this, if you are dreaming or something like that.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) Bhakti-yoga by drugs?
Pṛthu Putra: He says, he made the statement...
Prabhupāda: That is...
Pṛthu Putra: ...according to the state of the French people, in right now, in this time.
Prabhupāda: But we do not prescribe drug. We ask them to give up drug. (laughter) (French)