Śrī Govinda: They would like to interview you and tape record possibly for using in one of their magazines.
Prabhupāda: Jayatīrtha, you can come here. If required, you will reply. What is that?
Jayatīrtha: This is the article that Mrs. Wax has written, and it was published in Harper's. It's one of the big national magazines. It's about Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Jayatīrtha: It's nicely written.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Jayatīrtha: It's called "Raise Your Hand if You're an Eternal Spirit Soul."
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Mrs. Wax: Thank you. It's an honor to be here. Because I wrote the article about Gurukula, I'm interested in what has happened there. I was there last summer. Do you have plans for other schools? And what is happening with Gurukula now? Is it standing?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Jayatīrtha: She wants to know what our plan is for Gurukula, whether we want to start other Gurukulas in other places... (child noises)
Prabhupāda: (Aside:) Hmm, this child... So you can explain what is the idea of Gurukula.
Jayatīrtha: (indistinct) ...talking of other things. Generally he likes to address more philosophical questions.
Mrs. Wax: All right.
Jayatīrtha: Because the questions about the future of the society. Others devotees can answer this. Well, the philosophical questions that are not daily (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: We want to raise first-class man. Try to understand. The present society, we are creating fourth-class men. Therefore we are not in very happy condition. We want to raise the fourth-class man to first-class man. First-class man means with qualification who can control the mind, control the senses, always very cleansed and truthful, very simple, full of all kinds of knowledge, practical application in life, then to have full knowledge of God, these are the characteristics of first-class man. So at the present moment everyone is a fourth-class man. So we want to get some first-class men. That is required. Because there is no idea, first-class man, therefore people are becoming full of crimes. You have seen the article in the Time? "Crime, Why and What to Do?" That is the concern of the materialistic society. So we are trying to raise a group of men who will be ideal. Just like our devotees. You will find their characters different from all others, at least in your country. They do not have illicit sex, they do not eat meat, they do not have any intoxication, even smoking or taking tea, they do not indulge in gambling, they chant holy name of God, lead very simple life. So we are creating first-class men. There is need. It is not that everyone will become first-class man, but at least a section of man must be first-class so that others can see that what is the ideal character of man. So this Gurukula means from the childhood age we are training them so that in future it will be easier. That is the purpose of Gurukula.
Mrs. Wax: The four natural divisions... I understand that at Vṛndāvana, that that will be an example to American society, but how can the four natural divisions of man be translated into American society?
Prabhupāda: It has to be. If you don't, then you must suffer with all these criminals. That is natural. Just like in your body there is head, and there is arm, and there is belly, and there is leg. The head is the most important part. Why? Why not all legs? Why there are different divisions? Similarly, in the human society, if we want to make it perfect, there must be head, there must be arm, there must be belly, there must be legs. So leg can walk, but leg cannot do the work of brain. So at the present moment we have got all walking men, no brain. Therefore the society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain in the society. That is the defect of modern civilization. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and work, there are four divisions. (aside:) You can push it back. Four divisions. So similarly, four divisions must be there: a group of men, first-class; a group of men, administrators; a group of men, food producer; and a group of men, general worker. So the brain is the chief. If your body... There are other parts, but if your head is cut off, then what is the use of other parts? If your hand is cut off, you can live. If your leg is cut off, you can live. But if your head is cut off, then finished. So that is lacking in the present society, no brain how to guide, so that whole human... If the brain is there, then it can guide. It can ask the hand to work in a certain way, the leg to work in certain way, to eat in a certain way. Then the health of the whole body will be quite competent. But if there is no brain, then everything... Just like a man becomes mad when the brain is not working.
Mrs. Wax: Who will decide what the propensities are, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayatīrtha: Who is to decide whether a person is first-class, if they are a brāhmaṇa or whether they are kṣatriya or vaiśya?
Prabhupāda: The book of knowledge. You can read Bhagavad-gītā. Find out, śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa.
Jayatīrtha:
- śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ
- kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca
- jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam
- brahma-karma svabhāva-jam
- (BG 18.42)
"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness—these are the qualities by which a brāhmaṇa works."
Prabhupāda: This is first-class. Now śamo damaḥ... Śamaḥ means controlling the mind, mind is always peaceful. You can train. Then controlling the senses. Then truthful. Then full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life. These are the qualification of first-class man. Everything is there. If you train a boy to become first-class man, he can become first-class man. If you don't train, then he will become a debauch, criminal, disturbing. So we are training in the Gurukula to become first-class men. This is our aim. Unless in the society an ideal first-class man, then how one will become, or follow the ideal? There is no ideal. Now what is the idea of first-class man now? Can I ask you? What is your idea of first-class man? Whom do you call first-class man?
Jayatīrtha: Do you know any first-class men?
Mrs. Wax: I can't find any in the society. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: That is the defect. We have no idea who is first-class man. Everyone is drunkard, everyone smoker, everyone is gambler, everyone is illicit sex, where is first-class man? So in the absence of first-class man there must be criminals. Aiye. So there is a need of first-class men, first-class men and second-class men. Third-class, fourth-class, fifth-class, they are automatically there. So at the present moment fourth-class, fifth-class men. Third-class is also very scarcely found, and there is no question of first-class, second-class. But as in the full body we require brain, we require arm, we require belly, we require leg... Everything is required for different purposes of work. But at the present moment there is no place for the first-class men. When we ask our students that "You become free from all these four classes of sinful activity: no illicit sex, no meat-eating," people laugh: "Oh, why you are asking?" They do not know what is the ideal man. They think, "Illicit sex, what is wrong there? Meat-eating, what is wrong there?" They do not know what is right and wrong. Therefore all fourth-class men. They cannot understand even what is the value of these things. So you cannot be happy with fourth-class men. At least there must be a section, first-class men. That we are trying to create, a first-class man from this Gurukula.
Mrs. Wax: The ten-year-old boys who left Gurukula and went to Vṛndāvana and then went to Māyāpur, what will they...? They will be trained in the divisions there and come back?
Prabhupāda: No, that is the ideal, mind completely controlled, senses completely controlled, truthful and simple life. In this way they will be trained up gradually. And we have got one hundred books like that. If they read all these books and if they are trained up in their character, then they will be, in future, first-class men.