Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mahāprabhu?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. By mercy of spiritual master, the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, he gets the seed of devotional service, and if he cultivates, then his life becomes successful. Otherwise he has to rotate, sometimes up, sometimes down. Sometimes this grass, sometimes lion.
Paramahaṁsa: But ultimately if we come to Kṛṣṇa, there's no return. But nevertheless, Jagāi, and..., the two gatekeepers, they returned?
Prabhupāda: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is.
Paramahaṁsa: If we want.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Fall down?
Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Kṛṣṇa says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students, Kṛṣṇa conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare (Prema-vivarta). The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The māyā may be there, but māyā captures him who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Therefore, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, māyā does not interfere anymore."
Paramahaṁsa: So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Kṛṣṇa brings us to our natural position.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: But then again there's this constant struggle with our lower nature? We are constantly fighting our desires even though we want to serve Kṛṣṇa? This continues?
Prabhupāda: What is that? I do not follow.
Paramahaṁsa: Well, like, many devotees, they experience the difficulty that although they sincerely want to love God and serve Him, yet their body is almost like another dictator within them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means he is strongly under the grip of māyā.
Paramahaṁsa: Even though the desire exists.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a thief, he knows that "If I steal, I will be arrested. I will be put into jail." And he has seen that one thief, he has stolen, he is arrested. Still he commits theft. He knows everything. Why does he commit theft?
Paramahaṁsa: Why?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Ignorance?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda gives the example of the elephant.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Takes shower again and...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hasti-snāna. Therefore, knowledge giving, that is the beginning of spiritual life. Kṛṣṇa gives Arjuna, knowledge giving, that "You are not this body." This is the beginning of knowledge. What is that knowledge, all over the world? Where is that university? This preliminary knowledge which Kṛṣṇa begins, Bhagavad-gītā, where is that university? Svarūpa Dāmodara, where is that chemical laboratory or university?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is none in the universities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is the position of your education. There is no knowledge, and you are simply advertising, "Advancement of knowledge, university, PhD's, Nobel Prize holder." But they are all rascals. Fools' paradise. It is called, fools' paradise.