Viśvakarmā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Professor O'Connell and his wife are here to see you.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa, take this. I saw you last in London, I think.
Prof. O'Connell: We did, at your suburban place.
Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Manor, yes.
Prof. O'Connell: We were out for a morning walk. But you got out ahead of us, so Pradyumna and I did not quite catch you, but we followed your trail.
Prabhupāda: Pradyumna was there?
Prof. O'Connell: My wife was with me—you probably remember Kathleen O'Connell—and Professor and Mrs. Fendrick. Mr. Fendrick teaches at Ryerson University in Toronto. Mary Jane Fendrick.
Prabhupāda: So, if we keep the human society in darkness about the aim of life, that is not civilization. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). I think you understand Sanskrit. Svārtha-gatim, the real self-interest, is to go back to home, back to Godhead. For that purpose, the human life is given by nature as an opportunity in the cycle of birth and death. So if we don't take advantage of this human form of life, when we can realize God and go back to home, back to Godhead, then it is misused. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They're enamored by the external energy of God, this material energy, and they are thinking that utilizing the material energy, the dog is running on his legs, and if he can run on motorcar, that is advancement. But the business is the running, without any purpose.
Indian man: Is it not better to run than to stand still and sleep?
Prabhupāda: No, running is not stopped, but running must be with some purpose, aim of life. That they do not know. They are missing the aim of life.
Indian man: I meant, Swamiji, rajas is a better manifestation than tamas.
Prabhupāda: No, you have to go above rajas-tamaḥ. Rajas-tamaḥ means greediness and lust.
- tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ
- kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye
- ceta etair anāviddhaṁ
- sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati
- (SB 1.2.19)
If you want peace and happiness, then you have to transcend the platform of rajas-tamaḥ and come to the platform of goodness. Then you have to transcend the goodness platform and come to the vasudeva platform, Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform. This is progress. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobha. Rajas tamas means kāma and lobha, endless greediness and endless lusty desires. That will keep us within the category of material existence. Mūḍhā janmani janmani aprāpya mām (BG 16.20). Then we remain mūḍha, life after life. That is not the aim of human life. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). We take once type of body and struggle and again die, and again accept another, another type of body. There are 8,400,000 different types of body. This is going on. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Find out this verse.
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara-prāptir
- dhīras tatra na muhyati
- (BG 2.13)
This is the beginning of spiritual education. One has to learn it, that "I'm not this body; I'm within this body, and I'm transmigrating from one body to another." That means repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. This is the main problem of life. So human life means to make a solution of these problems, not to be entangled with these problems again and again.
Indian man: The question is, one must be able to see if there's a problem. People don't see it as a problem.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Here is your problem: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9)." Find out this verse.
Jayādvaita: Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi.
Prabhupāda: Yes, find out. This is knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means one must be able to see that what are the actual problems. Just like the scientists, the philosophers, they're trying to solve so many problems. But first of all, fix up what is the problem. Temporary problem, to make a solution, that is going on. But actual problem is this: na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The soul is not destroyed, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit, at any time. One should be very prudent to see that "If I have no birth and no death, then what is this nonsense, birth and death?" That is knowledge. Why I am dying? Why there is birth problem? Why there is death problem? And as soon as there is birth problem, there is disease problem, there is old age problem. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says.... What is the janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi?
Jayādvaita: It's in the list of items of knowledge, "The perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease."