Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) ...modern, that the earth comes in front of the moon or the sun and then there is eclipse. Do they not?
Dr. Patel: They, all the scientists also say the same thing, sir. When it comes in the straight line the eclipse...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I am saying, repeating their word. But why, then, eclipse takes place irregularly?
Dr. Patel: This is a question of simple harmonic motions according to the scientists here who explain it. The simple harmonic motion principle is that several motions are, I mean, going, gathered at a time. Then all of them come together. Then you see that thing occurs.
Prabhupāda: No...
Dr. Patel: So that motions are different. The different timings come.
Prabhupāda: But that means they do not know actually the motions.
Dr. Patel: And the old astrologers and scientists of India, they have planned it perfectly, when it comes out.
Prabhupāda: Our śāstra says that it is Rahu's attack. So attack does not come regularly.
Dr. Patel: That you may call allegorically.
Prabhupāda: One... Suppose you have got enemy. You are not going to attack regularly, but when there is some opportunity you go to attack. Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21).
Dr. Patel: Are we not observing this eclipse rituals, that, during the eclipse we stop aratis and all of this...
Prabhupāda: Why?
Dr. Patel: And after the eclipse is over, take bath and then do the arati?
Prabhupāda: Yes, they take bath.
Dr. Patel: Even the other Vaiṣṇava mandirs don't do arati during that period if it comes within that...
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Some sort of cosmic disturbances must be occuring in the cosmos during this period of gṛhana(?) or eclipse. We do not know, the modern science. Some movement must be happening.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our śāstra says it is attack by Rahu. Rahu...
Dr. Patel: Rahu means...The other side of the earth's shadow is Rahu, as we say. The modern scientists, the Rahu means other side of the shadow. When the sun shines on the earth, the other side of the earth is, I mean, the night and the shadow of the earth is long, drawn up in the cosmos. And in the view of that shadow, if moon comes, then it is caught by the shadow.
Prabhupāda: No, in the... Rahu, Rahu... Rahu comes in front...
Dr. Patel: That is... The shadow is the Rahu. What else could be? That shadow of earth in the cosmos is the Rahu, most probably to me, because when the moon... Generally moon does not come so very often therein in the purview of that shadow. When it comes, it gets eclipsed.
Prabhupāda: No, no. They give that the earth comes in front of the sun or the moon, therefore the shadow.
Dr. Patel: Earth comes in front of the sun. Then it becomes sun eclipse.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So, but why, if the movement is regular, then the earth come regularly.
Dr. Patel: But there are several movements also. The movement of the earth, sun, and moon.
Prabhupāda: That means again escaping.
Dr. Patel: All harmonic motions...
Devotee (5): Many shooting stars...
Dr. Patel: Things should be thought scientifically.
Prabhupāda: What is the scientifically if you cannot say how many movements are there?
Dr. Patel: All the movements that the heavenly stars and other things are going on in a particular way.
Prabhupāda: No, you do not know what are the movements. You therefore say there are several movements, but you do not know what are these movements. That is not scientific. To avoid the explanation, if the scientist says that there are several movements... But you explain what is that movement? According to our śāstra there is no individual movement. The whole system is moving, making center the polestar. That we can see at night. They have... Star and planet, they have no separate movement. They are fixed up. Just like this tree. There are so many leaves. The tree is moving, so the leaves and twigs, they are moving, not that the leaf is moving.
Dr. Patel: This is a question of relativity, sir.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But that we can see, this...
Dr. Patel: Now, the earth moves round the sun and the moon moves round the earth...
Prabhupāda: No, no...
Dr. Patel: And the rate of movement is different on either side. And the axis or ground on which it moves also differs. So when all of them collide or sort of a thing, then eclipse comes. That is the modern understanding.
Prabhupāda: And the... When Brahmānanda was speaking that word yesterday, I refuted your argument?
Brahmānanda: You were asking, "Why is it Sunday, Monday..." So I explained that the sun is the center of the universe; therefore the sun comes first.
Dr. Patel: No, various suns are there. All the stars are the suns of various universes.
Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept that. No. Sun is one.
Dr. Patel: That is the fundamental difference of opinion that we don't go ahead of it, sir.
Prabhupāda: No, why shall I go according to the dictation of the rascals? We are not so rascal.
Dr. Patel: And now we are define who is a rascal.
Prabhupāda: No, rascal is meant, who has no authority. They are changing every day. They are changing. We don't change. These rascals are changing...
Dr. Patel: These fundamentals, sir, cannot be changed.
Prabhupāda: In nineteenth century one theory and twentieth century another theory and then another theory, another theory. This is going on.
Dr. Patel: The truth is not changed but...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, they are changing. You see here... You have not seen that, our Svarūpa Dāmodara's book? He has given: simply changing, simply changing, these rascals. Changing means rascal. He does not know. "It is this. It is this." Another man, "No, no, it is not this. It is this." Therefore all of them rascals.
Dr. Patel: About this Kakubh Kapoor Cakra(?), our scientist, Mihila(?), has planned it, and according to the eclipse and sun and the moon eclipse come. That means his science was perfect. Otherwise it would not come at that particular day, time, and...
Prabhupāda: We... Our... Five thousand years ago Śukadeva Gosvāmī said that "As I have heard it, I am explaining." That means time immemorial, the thing is, same thing is coming. There is no change, not that after few days, "No, no. It was wrong. This is now right." Again somebody comes.
Dr. Patel: They are explaining the truth in their own way. That is the change of theory. But the truth is the same.
Prabhupāda: That is the truth of rascaldom, as soon as you change your position.
Dr. Patel: Theory is rascal, but the truth is never rascal.
Prabhupāda: No, no, truth you do not know. Therefore rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: They do not know how to explain. Truth is there, sir.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyway, he does not know. Therefore he is a rascal, either you say this way or that way.
Dr. Patel: Truth is there.
Prabhupāda: No, no, truth is there, but they cannot present the truth rightly. That is rascaldom. Truth is there; that is certain. But they cannot present the truth in right way.
Dr. Patel: You mean they are groping in the dark.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is rascal. How things are happening—every ten years they are changing their theory. And that has been explained by, not by a layman like me. The Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, he has explained. He has concluded Darwin's theory completely wrong. You have read that small booklet?
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And he has given reason, quotation, how simply he's speculator.
Dr. Patel: As a matter of, sir, the whole cosmos is full of, I mean, intelligence. That is God. But then that intelligence is struck in different way to the, what you call the mind, which is embedded in the matter. So, I mean, each one explains it in his own way, as he understands...
Prabhupāda: No, no. You cannot explain truth in your own way.
Dr. Patel: The whole truth nobody knows and sees. Even our śāstra says.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Things which one does not know, he should not try to cheat others by placing some untruth.
Dr. Patel: It is like five blind men seeing an elephant.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you should not give the conclusion that "Elephant is like..."
Dr. Patel: Then we don't accept... It is very difficult to know the whole truth by any one of us.
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore our process is upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. One has seen the truth. Not these rascals. Tattva-darśinaḥ. Darśinaḥ means who has actually seen. There is no change. The advice is tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevaya (BG 4.34). These are the quotes. Upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. Not that theoretical. Tattva-darśinaḥ. You have to go there. Then you will get knowledge. A blind man goes to another blind man. What is the profit? No profit.
Dr. Patel: Andhena andha-niyataḥ.(?)
Prabhupāda: Ah. Andha yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). A blind man must go to a man who has got eyes, who has seen. Then that is right knowledge. Now we are presenting this book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Let anyone come and challenge. Let anyone come. We have got many scientists. They will talk. What is the value of speculation?
Dr. Patel: I think some scientists have talked nonsense before you, so you are... (laughs) All scientists are not like that, sir. (end)