Prabhupāda: There was one clergyman lecturing in a Sheffield coal-mine that, "If you don't worship Jesus Christ, then you will go to hell." So first of all one man asked him... First of all, the clergyman inquired, "Do you know Jesus Christ?" So they were silent. So one of them inquired, "What is his number?" They thought that "Jesus Christ must be one of us," I mean to say, workers in the mine. So he must have got a number. "So what is his number?" Then the clergyman could understand that "To whom I am speaking." So then he explained, "Oh, Jesus Christ is not one of you. He is son of God. He has come to deliver you. If you don't worship Him, then you will go to hell." Then one of them said, "What is hell?" Then he described, "It is very dark, moist, and so on." So they were silent, because they work in the mine. (laughter) They were silent. "What is this hell? It is all right." Then the clergyman thought how to impress them. Then, after a few minutes, he said, "No. The hell is very dangerous." "How?" "There is no newspaper." "Oh, horrible." (Laughter) Because in your western countries everyone is fond of newspaper. So he stressed, he hit the point, that "There is no newspaper." So we have to hit to the point that there is no tax-man. So what is your question?
Western countries (Conversations 1968 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: In India, due to her long subjugation by the foreigners, practically the so-called educated persons, they have lost their original culture. Rather, those who are not so-called educated, following the traditional rules and regulations, they are more Kṛṣṇa conscious. And the educated circle, they are thinking that this religious temperament is the cause of India's economic fall-down. But actually, that is not the fact. So not only India, in other countries also they are trying to imitate the economic situation or economic development of other countries, especially of America, but they do not find that in America, although the boys and girls, the younger generation, they are born of rich family, rich nation, they are still confused, and they are also hankering after something better. So the policy followed by India now, that is, to imitate the Western way of life, is not very happy mood. This means they have lost their original culture. And so far Western countries are concerned, I think they have sufficient arrangement for material comforts. Now they can very easily take up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement because they have no disturbance for material hankering. And I think it is the time for them to accept this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to make them perfectly well.
Prabhupāda: He was rascal number one. I say publicly.
Journalist: Could you explain that, give me a little background on that and why, because our readers are...
Prabhupāda: I do not know, but from his behavior I can understand he's a rascal number one. I do not like to know about him, but what he did... But the wonderful thing is that people in western countries, they're supposed to be so advanced. How they are befooled by these rascals?
Journalist: Well, I think that people believe what they want to believe. They're looking for something, and he comes along...
Prabhupāda: Yes. But they want something very cheap. That is their fault.
Journalist: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Now for our disciples, we don't give anything cheap. Our first condition is character, moral character. You see? So unless one is accepting moral character, we don't initiate, don't allow him in this institution. And this Maharishi was, "Oh, you do whatever you like. You simply pay me thirty-five dollars and I'll give you some mantra." You see. So people wanted to be cheated, and so many cheaters come. They do not wish to undergo some disciplinary action, you see? Anything. They have got money. They think that "I shall pay," and immediately he'll get the money.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (1): May I ask one thing. How you chose this America to be your first...?
Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja ordered me that "You go and preach this cult amongst the English speaking public and specially in the western countries." So first of all I thought of London, where is London, but I had no money. So I got the opportunity for going U.S.A. free on the, on a trade ship by the Scindia Steam Navigation. They gave me their first-class cabinet, the proprietor's cabinet. I was well carried. But first of all I went free on a steamship. I had no money, what to speak of aeroplane. So... What was your question?
Guest (1): My question was that how you selected America to be your...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So I got the opportunity to go to America because their ship goes to New York. So I accepted, "All right, we can see, either go to London or New York." New York is better place than London.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: These are living, symptoms of living condition.
Guest (1): Living condition. So, but we are not affected by air, which is most required and most special for our use. Because it is abundant, and it will be given to every person at all the times, in all circumstances, therefore we do not keep it under lock and key. Western countries, though they have...
Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no question of Western-Eastern.
Guest (1): No, I was speaking of materialism and spiritualism. I was talking on that point, that though we see, I mean, I don't say have made it, but yet because there is no what kind of life they want, or in our Eastern countries, because they are...
Prabhupāda: No, no. If you study the whole thing in that way—Western-Eastern... There is no question of Western-Eastern. It is the question of the living entity.
Prabhupāda: Huge car.
Prof. Kotovsky: Very well parked(?)...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...that car, very interesting piece of car.
Prabhupāda: That has been introduced in the Western countries, in London and San Francisco. And gradually, maybe, we will introduce in other countries also.
Prof. Kotovsky: In London among Indian community...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...among the different(?) peoples of Indian community.
Prabhupāda: This is organized by the Englishmen and the Americans. Indian communities in London and San Francisco, they are trying to become sahib. You know the word sahib?
Prof. Kotovsky: (laughs) Westernized.
Mohsin Hassan: What is the goal of this movement for the future? Is there any program set for the future?
Prabhupāda: Because it is genuine movement, it will make progress, provided it is presented in pure form. It was not presented before me in pure form, at least in the Western countries. Therefore people could not take it, nor they could understand it. Now it is being placed in pure form in the right way of paramparā system as the ācāryas introduced, and actually it is happening. It is..., they are taking. Wherever they are going, people are very much anxious to take this philosophy, as if they are waking. Anywhere we go, even we have sent men to Jerusalem (?). (aside:) What town? (indistinct) So this method is very effective, and people are accepting, any part of the world, without any discrimination. Here mostly you see our students are from the Christian group, the Jewish group, there are many students from Muhammadan group, from Parsi group.
Prabhupāda: No, therefore propaganda is required. They are rascal fools, but we are not rascal and fools. We must preach.
Sister Mary: Well, you can't preach until you are purified.
Prabhupāda: Eh? No, purification will go on. Suppose you are... Just like we are holding, what I... I began this propaganda in the Western countries. I was sitting in a park, Thompkinson's? What is that?
Revatīnandana: Thompkins Square.
Prabhupāda: Thompkins Square in New York. I was simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they used to gather. And gradually, they became my disciples, students. So I began in this way, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare... For three hours, from two to five. That's all. And they are still doing that. They are going on the street. This Hare Kṛṣṇa, the same thing, is going on. They are being arrested sometimes. They are being harassed. But still, they don't give up. They chant. This boy in Germany, I sent in Germany. He sat down on the footpath and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This boy. Practically, he started my European movement, he started first.
Journalist (1): That's a difficult thing for people...
Prabhupāda: Not difficult thing. If you do not take it is difficult. If you accept, there is no difficulty. They are accepting. There is no difficulty. They have also belonged to Western country. They are happy. And ask him.
Journalist (1): I don't dispute, but you said that they are...
Prabhupāda: And they'll give you all information of God.
Journalist (1): Yes. I'm not suggesting that they're not happy, nor that your followers aren't convinced that you're right.
Prabhupāda: So you can become also happy, you can know also God provided you take. If you don't take how can I help?
Journalist (1): What I'm suggesting is, I mean trying to suggest is that for a large number of people...
Prabhupāda: Well, large number... Large number... When you speak of something good, you cannot expect many. Just like if you want to sell diamond, you cannot expect that the whole population of England will purchase it. When there is question of diamond, the customer also must be very rich. Similarly, to understand God is not so difficult, or, easy job. Only the fortunate, pious, nice people can understand God. Not ordinary...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So here the love propensity is being misplaced in this material world. That should be placed in God. Then the love will be perfection. Just like if you pour water on the leaves of the tree or branches of the tree it is simply a waste of time. If you pour water on the root then the effect of pouring water is distributed. Similarly, foodstuff, if you place the foodstuff on your nose, on your eyes or your ears, it is simply wasted. But if you put foodstuff to the mouth in the stomach immediately the energy derived from the foodstuff is distributed throughout the whole body. Similarly, if you love God then your, automatically your love is distributed to everyone, every entity. But if you don't love, if you simply love your country... Just like an Englishman, you love your country; German, he loves his country, but there is fight between the English and the Germans because the love is misplaced. But if the Germans or the Englishmen or the Indians they put their love in God there will be no more fighting. Therefore our philosophy is to educate people how to love God. That is real religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religion which teaches the follower how to love God. And as soon he becomes a lover of God... Just like I am Indian, but I have come to western countries to teach love of God. It is not that I am satisfied only in myself that I love God, that's all right. But due to my love to God I love others also, because I am trying to teach them to love God, the same philosophy. So if people take seriously this movement, how to love God, then human society will be first-rate.
Dr. Singh: There's only two recorded wars.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. It was recorded. That fighting is going on even in the family. We see between husband and wife also there is sometimes fighting. That is not taken into account. But the major wars in the history of the world... Because India, or Bhāratavarṣa, means the whole world. Now it is cut into pieces. Just like twenty years ago, Pakistan is cut. This planet is called Bhāratavarṣa. Formerly it was known as Ilāvṛtavarṣa. Later on, after the ruling of Mahārāja Bharata... You know Mahārāja Bharata. After his name, this planet is called Bhāratavarṣa. And up to the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was one ruling all over the world. One king in this (indistinct). Then gradually... Why? The culture was lost. The Vedic culture was lost. Up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the Vedic culture was kept intact. Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit, while he was going on tour of the Western countries, he saw one black man was trying to kill one cow. He immediately took his sword, ""Who are you? You are killing cow in my kingdom?" So that culture we have lost. Immediately he began, "With this sword I shall kill you."
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Dr. Singh: Therefore, he neutralized.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like śūdra. In the Western countries, they are all śūdras. They are getting money and misusing on wine and women. They cannot use money (indistinct), simply for sense gratification. That is the śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, especially kṣatriya, as soon as they get money, they would make a big sacrifice to satisfy viṣṇu-yajña.
Dr. Singh: Aśvamedhi.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore in the instruction of Viśvadeva(?), the śūdras should be given money so they can live very comfortably, not more. Then they will be spoiled. And that is being done. Śūdras get money, they do not know how to use it. Just like a child, you give hundred rupees, he will spoil it. He does know. (Bengali) The monkey is decorated with pearl necklace. Even Hanumān.
Prabhupāda: Gañjā, yes. Not sādhus, rogues. Sādhu's description is there—bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is sādhu. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). He is sādhu. Api cet sudurācāro. Even one is found that his habits are not to the standard, but if he has unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa and engaged in His service, then he is sādhu. These sādhus with long hairs and gañjā smoking, they have no idea what is the ultimate goal. And those who come from Western countries, naturally they find out these are the sādhus and they imitate. Hippies, they do like that, imitation. They do not know what is the philosophy, what is religion, what is sādhu.
Nara-Nārāyaṇa: The American hippies actually are following these sādhus. Certain persons, like Allen Ginsberg, have brought back impression that this is what the sādhus...
Prabhupāda: But they do not know that they are not sādhus, they are rogues.
Nara-Nārāyaṇa: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Sādhu means devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is sādhu.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: This is what an old man has a right to tell you.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, from the very beginning, because in Western country the boys and girls, they intermingle very freely.
Guest: Oh, yes, we know all that.
Prabhupāda: Yes...
Guest: We know for a fact.
Prabhupāda: ...and therefore I, as far as possible, I get them married.
Guest: Yes. But that doesn't prevent permissive culture. It acts as a sort of guarantee (Prabhupāda laughs), as a sort of insurance against scandal. But scandals do come out.
Prabhupāda: Yes, and that is a...
Guest: So you are left with, that is another crude problem...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Śyāmasundara: You use that example of the cow and the market?
Prabhupāda: Yes, when the milk is available in the market, what is the use of keeping a cow? (laughter) It is a very abominable condition. In the western countries I have seen. Here also, in India, gradually it is coming to be so. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) (break) ...movement is especially meant for making human life, reaching the real goal.
Bob: The real goal?
Prabhupāda: The real goal of life.
Bob: Is the real goal of life to know God?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bob: So that is the real goal, to know God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Go back to home, back to Godhead. That is real goal of life. Just like the water coming from the sea as cloud falls down as rain and the actual goal is to flow down the river and again go to the sea. So we have come from God. Now we are embarrassed in this material life. Therefore the aim should be how to get out of this embarrassment and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is real goal of life.
Prabhupāda: Maybe same thing, but you will be puzzled by the different opinion. Therefore you have to take the path of great personalities. So we are following Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya chanted this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we are following, and we are getting result. That's all. We don't manufacture our own way because we are imperfect. We cannot manufacture. That will not be beneficial.
Impersonalist: Why is it that this mahāmantra is so attractive to Western countries and not particularly...
Prabhupāda: Because it is the thing required. Therefore it is recommended in the śāstra. Because it is recommended that... What is recommended in the śāstra, spoken in the śāstra, that is perfect. There is no mistake. Therefore it is being accepted. Anywhere we are going, beginning from old man to child, everyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is recommended. Our intelligence should be applied there, that what is recommended in the Vedas, that is perfect. There are so many instances. Just like cow dung. You know cow dung? Stool of the cow? So according to Vedic principle, if you touch stool of an animal you become impure. Even my stool, I pass in the WC, and immediately I wash and become purified. Oh, this is my stool, personal, and what to speak of other stool? So stool is impure. But the Vedas say that the stool of cow is pure. So if you argue that "Cow is an animal. So animal stool is impure. How the cow stool can become pure?" that is puzzling, but because it is said by the..., ordered by the Vedas, it is fact. You analyze cow stool; you find all antiseptic matter. So therefore we accept the Vedic injunction as truth. We haven't got to make research. We save time. So according to Vedic civilization, whatever is stated in the Vedas, we take it-fact. That's all. Śruti. Śruti-pramāṇam. Śruti means Vedas. Pramāṇam means evidence.
Guest (1): In the minds of some people the sudden attraction of Western youth to Eastern religions...
Prabhupāda: No. It is not Eastern. That is a wrong conception. God is for everybody. Eastern people, when I speak of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they say, "What is this Kṛṣṇa? We know Kṛṣṇa. What we have to learn from Swamiji?" "Familiarity breeds contempt." But in the Western countries when we speak of Kṛṣṇa, they see the philosophy. They see the science and become attracted. We, in the very beginning, we neglect: "Oh, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" Otherwise there is no question of Western or Eastern. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. Kṛṣṇa is neither Western, neither Eastern. But Eastern, our, especially Indians, they have learned to reject. That is their education: immediately reject it. This is their new culture, to reject everything. At least Jawaharlal Nehru began like that, "Anything Indian is bad. Everything London-made is good." That was his philosophy. And if one European would go to see him, immediately admission. And if an Indian goes to see him, three days he has to wait.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And the editors must be very expedient. Besides that, I think this Kṛṣṇa Book, smaller edition, that will have very soon another reprint.
Karandhara: At least ten million we will print in the Kṛṣṇa Book pocket size.
Prabhupāda: And Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, Macmillan Company's. They have taken. And they are also printing yearly fifty thousand or more than that. At least in Western countries there is no such thought of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is completely... That professor, what is his name?
Karandhara: Dimmock?
Prabhupāda: Dimmock. He has given very good appreciation. And gradually it will be printed in other languages. German, French, Spanish, Denmark, Holland...
Karandhara: Danish.
Prabhupāda: Danish, yes. And we are getting also Hindi layout from India. That Hindi magazine also will be printed. Gradually other Indian languages. And Japanese and Chinese also. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa...
Pañcadraviḍa(?): Oh, yes. (laughs)
Devotee (2): She said if someone else didn't shoot her, she would. She'd just do herself in.
Prabhupāda: Hopeless life. Māyā-sukhāya. Because they waste their time simply for flickering happiness, in future everything is zero. Śūnyavādī, nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi. Śūnyavādī means whose ultimate goal is zero. Pāścātya-deśa, Western countries. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi. (chants japa) Every one of you should take this movement very seriously and save your country. Misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānas (SB 7.5.31). (laughs) Blind men. This Nixon is a rascal number one, and he's the president. Just see. They have no other selection. All the people are rascals, and they must select one rascal to become their guider, another big rascal. (devotees chant japa) (break) ...from Māyāpur?
Devotee (Karāndhara?)(3): Yes. The one you've written, from the old Book Trust?
Prabhupāda: No, no. They have sent one account.
Devotee (3): Oh, yes, I reviewed that.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (3): I reviewed it. Yes.
Prabhupāda: That small pamphlet.
Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Scindia Steam Navigation Company carries Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to western countries.
Sumati Morarjee: Yes, I know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. She's a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa. In her office, there is Kṛṣṇa.
Sumati Morarjee: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That is our especially, our worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and they belong to Bhāratia Community. They're all Vaiṣṇava. The whole, I have to say, Viṣṇu Svāmī Sampradāya, or Vallabha Ācārya.
Sumati Morarjee: Yes, Vallabhācārya.
Prabhupāda: They're guru.
Prabhupāda: That, not only in India. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not meant for India or America. Of course, I am deputed by my Guru Mahārāja to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the Western world. That is his grace. He wanted that Western people, who are intelligent, they should learn what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So my mission is for the Western country, but it is not meant for any particular country, nation. It is meant for every living entity. Now, there are many unfortunate living entities and there are many fortunate living entities. So we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in America or Western country, only the fortunate persons they are coming. But if few of them come and understand, then by their example and behavior, the whole population will be benefited. It is not expected that cent percent population will be able to understand this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but by the examples of the few, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). Just like you'll find in our temple it is always crowded to the fullest extent. We require a more spacious home. But not all of them our initiated students. Out of them say ten percent may be our initiated students. But still people are coming to see. They are following. Gradually they will also become student. So it is a very important movement, scientific movement. I therefore request learned scholars like you, government, scientist, philosopher, they should study. For them we have written so many books. Not only that. It is not that we are simply chanting and dancing. If you are philosopher, if you are scholar, if you are scientist, we can give you proof in a scientific way, in a philosophical way, scholarly way; therefore these books are there.
Frenchman: (indistinct) ...history of many masters and many great teachers such as Jesus Christ and many others... (indistinct) ...come to... (indistinct) ...message. (indistinct) ...today on the same level.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because from God's side there is always an attempt to make the people right. As soon as they're wrongly directed, some messenger comes like Jesus Christ or Buddha or, before Him, Lord Kṛṣṇa. So what we are preaching that is not new. It is God consciousness. And all the great messiahs they came. But the thing is that people are changing in their different education mentalities. So we have to present things in such a way that intelligent person can accept the old teachings in the western countries. Like Lord Jesus Christ... Either they're not being followed or they're not properly understood because in London I saw hundreds of churches are vacant. That means that it's so practical that people have no more interest in Christianity or the Christian people could not convince them of the spiritual necessity of life. Many churches are for sale. That's not a good sign. That means people have lost interest in spiritual life but fortunately the younger generation, they are taking to this spiritual movement.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Gītā Press has got different versions also.
Guest (2): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Gītā Press also tried to preach Gītā since forty, forty years. But Bhagavad-gītā was, published by Gītā Press, was not in the Western countries. And we published this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is in 1968. It is now all over the world. And the Macmillan Company, the biggest publisher of the world, they are taking interest. Not only this book. For this book they are taking gradually all our books. So our point is: present Kṛṣṇa as it is. That is real Indian culture. Don't present Kṛṣṇa adulterated. Your country will be glorified. The whole world will accept that India has got something to give. You are simply now beggar. So I have come to this country not to beg, but to give. That is my mission. And they are feeling, "Yes, we are getting something substantial."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayatīrtha: Why was it the programs failed?
Prabhupāda: Because his disciples, they had a different program. They wanted politics like the Western countries. They did not want... Just like all the politicians, they do not want anything good for the people. They simply want to make some money for their (indistinct), that's all. This is the whole policy of the modern diplomats and politicians. They do not know, you go to hell. Other way, in your country you see so many young men are frustrated. So what government is doing actually? They are not serious. They have made this policy that catch them and send them, keep the Vietnam going on and kill them, all these useless boys should be killed. That is their policy. That is the Western policy: if you don't like anyone, shoot. So if your fathers and grandfathers they could not make you right, then send them to Vietnam to be killed. This is going on. Suicidal policy. If when a good man becomes too much frustrated, he commits suicide. That is also very current in your country. But the same suicidal policy, these boys, hippies, they could not reform them-kill them, that's all.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Religious idea without philosophy is sentiment, and philosophy without religion is mental speculation. They should be combined. Religious idea supported by philosophy. Then it is correct. And philosophy without religious idea is simply mental speculation. They should be combined. That combination of religious idea and philosophy, you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā, provided you accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. If you interpret Bhagavad-gītā in your own way, then you'll miss the point. Just like in our country, in India, Bhagavad-gītā has been interpreted in so different ways that people are now bewildered. They do not know what is actually Bhagavad-gītā. Take, for example... Just like in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, dharmakṣetre kurukṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). I think you know Sanskrit. Samavetā yuyutsavaḥ māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva kim akurvata sañjaya (BG 1.1). Even a great leader, political leader, he has interpreted kurukṣetra as this body. So where is the dictionary where kurukṣetra means this body? But because he's a big political leader that gītā is going on. Kurukṣetra means this body. Pāṇḍava means the five senses. In this way (break) ...they cannot (indistinct) I may tell you frankly. Just like Mahatma Gandhi, he wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and how he can prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā? Then he has to drag some interpretation out of his own way. But because he's a big leader the people are misled. Similarly, all... at present moment in India the Bhagavad-gītā has becoming a plaything that anyone can interpret in his own way and do all nonsense. But I'll request you, because you are so much interested, and you have already approved Bhagavad-gītā, you have translated. Amongst the leading personalities, you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is and spread it, it will have immediate effect. That is already experimented. Just like in western countries, before me, hundreds and thousands, swamis and yogis went there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And then they say "I will make you perfect man, whatever you like you can... You become my disciple, give me some money."
Devotee (3): And enjoy.
Prabhupāda: There is a proverb, that a drowning man catches even a straw. A man is drowning, he's seeing the straw is floating, he wants to catch it. So in western countries, they are so much fed up with this materialistic way of life that any person from India comes, they think he may give something spiritual.
Devotee (3): Hm.
Prabhupāda: Light. Catch it. But what... Why did you not have tilaka, both of you. You have no time for tilaka?
Devotee (3): Our tilaka was locked in the bathroom. The door got locked.
Prabhupāda: Tilaka, why it is locked in bathroom?
Devotee (3): Somehow the door became locked from inside this morning, I don't know how but we couldn't go inside.
Prabhupāda: You don't get him my tilaka? All right. What is this?
Devotee (3): This is called Jakarta Fair, International Fair for business trade. Once a year they come from all over the world and...
Prabhupāda: This side is better than the other side.
Revatīnandana: He would take it as prasāda? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: So this is going on. What can be done? And here, in the western countries, they are innocent. I have told them that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, Supreme God." They have accepted it. Just like child. So they are making progress. And people are astonished, "How these westerners, they have become so nice devotee?" But they have accepted it without any argument.
Revatīnandana: I used to argue all the time. (laughter) You used to win every time.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the miracle. I simply present that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. And just chant His name, holy name." And they're doing that. But Indians will not do that. They'll say, "Oh, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we have seen." And one, one student in Berkeley University, Indian: "Swamiji, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? We want now technology." That's all. They take it as very trifle thing. Not seriously.
Malcolm: No. I'm talking not of science, but of education which...
Prabhupāda: No, education is different. Education may be wrong or right, but science is always the fact. "Two plus two equal to four,"—that is equally good in the East and West, not that in the western countries, two plus two will be five. So similarly, any scientific knowledge, it does not depend on East and West understanding. It is good for everywhere. Similarly, to understand the science of God, it does not depend on the Western culture or Eastern culture. One must be serious to understand. Then it is equally available. Ahaituky apratihatā. These material impediments cannot check progress in the science of God, cannot. Apratihatā, without any checking. That we are experiencing, that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not checked anywhere. We have got branches all over the world. Any country, there is no language difficulty. Wherever we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they join, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." There is no checking. Even Africa, they are also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even the child will chant. They clap. You have seen that a small child is...? I think he..., about six months old. So there is no checking. For spiritual understanding there is no checking. The child, six months' old child, clapping, that means he's joining with the system. He's not sophisticated. He's new child, but automatically... So there is no checking.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. You would apply the teachings of the Gītā to all human societies at all times. Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes, that is my ambition, that let the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā be practically accepted by the human society, and surely they'll be happy. Surely. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glanīr bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So now everything is confused. And in your country, or western countries, they are very organized. So you are not feeling now so much confusion. But it is coming. But in India and countries like that, it is very confusion state. Yes. They have lost their own culture, and they could not assimilate the western type of civilization. So they are lost. They are lost.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: In India is everybody lost, the Indian culture...?
Prabhupāda: No, not everybody.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That was the res... Formerly, in our childhood we saw that any gentleman coming here in London and goes back to India, he no more mixes with the Indian soil. He... They were called "England-returned." So they made their own society. Then our Ram Mohan Raya, he formed a Brahmo Society. And so many things changed. Again, they are now topsy-turvied. So actually, India's position is that they have lost their own culture, and they could not assimilate the western culture. But in the western countries, if they accept this Vedic process of civilization, then they will again take it.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause)
Śyāmasundara: "A Rival for Nelson."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Śyāmasundara: "A Rival for Nelson."
Prabhupāda: Yes. There was newspaper photograph. You have seen that?
Śyāmasundara: Guardian.
Śyāmasundara: "A Rival for Nelson."
Prabhupāda: Yes. There was newspaper photograph. You have seen that?
Śyāmasundara: Guardian.
Prabhupāda: Guardian. "A Rival for Nelson." Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Well, the western countries are mostly concerned with economics, money, wealth...
Prabhupāda: No, that is...
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: It's about the same as...
Prabhupāda: That they can continue. But the spirit of Vedic culture should be accepted. It is not that because one has to accept the Vedic culture, he has to stop industry or material progress. Not like that. Bhagavad-gītā does not teach that. Simply to change the consciousness. Therefore we have named the Society "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness." One has to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be adjusted. Not the mode of life should be changed. Little change. Just like we recommend that four things should be avoided: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. So to give up these four kinds of activities, which are considered to be sinful, that is not very difficult. That is not very difficult. These English and, I mean to say, European and American boys, they are young men. They have given up. So in the society, if there is prevalence of sinful activities, then there will be reaction. So these four things are considered sinful activities: illicit sex, meat, unecessarily killing of animals, and intoxication, and gambling. Yatra pāpas catur-vidhaḥ. These are four kinds of sinful activities. So Vedic civilization means they should be freed from the sinful activities. Then other things will automatically come.
Prabhupāda: The people do not know all these things. They have no idea. They have no idea, neither... Even these things are there in the Vedic literature, they are not very much interested. And practically, in the darkness, they do not know what is next... I talked with Professor Kotofsky in Moscow. He, he is in charge of Indology. That gentleman told me, "Swamiji, after death there is nothing. Everything is finished." So I was surprised, that such a learned man, and he has no idea of the transmigration of the soul. These are the defects of modern civilization. Those who are leaders, teachers, they are not sufficiently in knowledge.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I think, in western countries now, people are very much afraid of death. It's...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Especially in America, people are very much afraid of... They won't even mention or think about death which is a great weakness. One should be able to think about death.
Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is... That is natural. That is natural. Suppose if, after my death, I am going to become something lower than my present position, certainly I must be afraid of it.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. But not many people...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Not many people in western countries are thinking about this now.
Prabhupāda: That's not very good.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No.
Prabhupāda: That's not good.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No.
Prabhupāda: That means it proves less intelligence.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: If they do not know the law of karma and the transmigration of the soul, change of body, that means no intellectual...
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. (pause)
Prabhupāda: So let us...
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Now, in India more people are living in the western way, though, living in cities, working in factories and offices. Does this make them have the western state of mind, the western point of view? Or can they resist it?
Prabhupāda: No, everything can be changed. If they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The consciousness has to be changed.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) No big man thinks like that. He thinks always small.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So that is natu... That is good. Big, big man. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was lear... "I am fool number one." And the author of Caitanya-caritāmṛta, he says that "I am lower than the, a worm in the stool." So this is good attitude. Nobody... Sir Isaac Newton also used to say that "What knowledge I have got. I have simply collected..." They're... Every, every big man thinks like that. That is good attitude. But there is comparative study, that "Here is a big man, here is a common man." So our proposition is that it is a great science, great philosophy. So western countries, they are intelligent, especially the Britain, British people. They had very good opportunity. Still they have got opportunity. So my request is that let us study this philosophy and science and if possible introduce it in the human society. That is our proposal.
Śyāmasundara: I think Lord Brockway was saying that his ideal is that, at present moment, that men of the world try to make an understanding, intellectual understanding of the problems and try to make an intellectual solution...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Or if you ask them, "Let us go to cinema," they'll never go, even at your expense. (everyone laughs) This is vairāgya. They do not want anything except Kṛṣṇa. They do not want anything except Kṛṣṇa. These boys, young boys, from twenty to thirty years old, they've got to enjoy so many things, especially in this country, the Western countries. How they have given up? Jñāna-vairāgya. Janayaty āśu.
Reporter: Vairāgya, yes.
Prabhupāda: Āśu, "very immediate."
Reporter: Hm. Instant.
Prabhupāda: Instant.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So bhakti-yoga is so powerful. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu vairāgyam... (SB 1.2.7).
Mother: Now, I, I, I don't... I am so happy that my son is happy, truthfully. But I am very distressed... And little boys, don't laugh because this is serious. Um. I am very distressed that none of these boys continue their education. What is going to happen to them when they are like you, when they're older, they have no talents?
Prabhupāda: But your educational system, in the western countries, the, you have got big, big universities. Why the university students becoming hippies?
Mother: Oh, well, there're always a certain amount becoming hippies, in America, anywhere. But we must...
Prabhupāda: No...
Mother: But we must develop...
Prabhupāda: I think the college students university students, they're all hippies.
Mother: Yes, but we must develop the good ones that have talent. We must develop them. You have the power to give these boys...
Prabhupāda: I mean to say that if the chance of education is there... In India there is no such big, big universities, facilities, but in your western countries you have got nice universities, nice teaching system. Why the result is hippie?
Mother: Oh, but you... We're talking of you. You have got the power. But people follow you because they believe in you. So you have the power to educate them. And you're not hippies, are you?
Prabhupāda: My point is that this simple, this education for eating, sleeping, mating and defending, this sort of education will not satisfy.
Prabhupāda: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Then, as he practices, becomes more purified, then second initiation. Gāyatrī. Gāyatrī-mantra. But the first initiation, according to Jīva Gosvāmī, that is sufficient. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, that is sufficient. But still, to purify them more, the second initiation, Gāyatrī, is given. So we are creating brāhmaṇas in the western countries. Yes.
Professor: Yes. I know. Don't you think it's against the dharma-śāstra?
Prabhupāda: No.
Professor: No. Tell me why?
Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). There is nothing, such thing as janma.
Professor: Oh. Very nice.
Prabhupāda: And another place, Bhāgavatam, there is statement of Nārada, advising Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira that yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam. There are symptoms, brāhmaṇa system, śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 18.42). It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam, abhivyañjakaṁ varṇa. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). This is the injunction of Nārada, "The symptoms, brahminical symptoms, if it is found in the person who is born in a śūdra family, he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. And if the śūdra symptoms are visible in a person born in a brāhmaṇa family, he should be accepted as śūdra." And in the Jābāla Upaniṣad, the Satyakāma Jābāla... So Satyakāma was born of a maidservant, but he wanted to become brāhmaṇa. So he went to Gautama Muni: "Sir, make your disciple." In those days, Vaidic brahminical culture, without becoming brāhmaṇa, he cannot be initiated. Initiation means to make one brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: What the Ramakrishna mission has done?
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna mission has done this, that they have learned to drink wine and eat meat, that's all, from the Western countries. That's all.
Professor: Yes. This is so.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their contribution. And they have spoiled the Hindu culture.
Professor: Oh. Yes?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Because Vivekananda said, "Oh, what is the harm there, in eating? You can eat whatever you like. It doesn't matter in religion." It was the first. And he himself was eating anything. So all the Ramakrishna mission sannyāsīs still, they are eating meat, egg and everything, especially in America. Yes. Fish is no consideration. That is daily affair. And the turkey,... Yes. Instead of preaching here, they have taken the Western method. And Vivekananda's preaching is like Western missionaries-open hospitals, school...
Professor: You are right, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He had no spiritual knowledge. So therefore it has not been successful. They are preaching in the Western countries... As far I know, in America they have got ten or twelve branches. I am working for the last six years only. I have got already fifty branches. And each branch, there are devotees like them, not less than twenty-five, up to two hundred, three hundred, all dedicated souls.
Professor: And what about Maharishi Mahesh Yogi?
Prabhupāda: I don't take account of these because they are not standard.
Professor: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: They are not standard. We are following Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, standard, and they have got their own manufactured way. So we don't recognize them. Our process is evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Paramparā. What Kṛṣṇa said, the disciplic succession will say the same thing. But they are speaking differently. So therefore we don't take them as bona fide. They are not bona fide. And from external point of view, we have got so many literatures, so many branches, so many devotees, within six years. But they haven't got such thing. Even Ramakrishna Mission. They are working for the last eighty years. And I have worked only for six years. And my result is eighty times more than them. They also acknowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone likes. Yes. Even Christian priests they also like. No, any sane man will like because... Somebody sends me money: "Sir, you are doing so nice work, spreading God consciousness. Here is my little contribution."
Professor: I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes. From your, these Western countries. Just week before, I got hundred dollars from one gentleman. Simply appreciated that I am spreading God consciousness. So actually we have no program of proselytizing or making Hindu from Christian, Christian... We have no such program. We simply want to see that everyone is God conscious. Never mind through which venue, he becomes a God conscious. It doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: Now why you are asking this question? You know, I've explained, that one has to become brāhmaṇa. There are still there are many brāhmaṇas, those who are with children. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, although He had no children, He was family man. Nityānanda Prabhu was family man, and Advaita Prabhu was family man. They're all brāhmaṇas, family men, but they knew what is God. The real thing is to know God. Not to, because everything is allowed. These eight, four varṇas and four āśramas. There is no such thing that one has to become, to come to this form of life or that form of life. So varṇāśramācaravatā. You must execute the varṇāśrama-dharma. Then you'll understand. It doesn't matter whether you are a brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra, that is a cooperation. Just like in your body there must be the head, there must be the arms, there must be the belly, and there must be the legs. By comparative study head is more important than the leg. But leg is also required. You cannot do without leg. Similarly, brāhmaṇa is the head, kṣatriya is the arms, vaiśya is the belly and śūdra is the leg. So as much I require my head so much I require the leg also. But the leg must do the leg's duty and the head must do the head's duty. Then it is perfect. And if the head is cracked, then everything is gone, madman. So at the present moment there is no brāhmaṇa, qualified. Therefore the society is in chaos. In chaotic condition, all are searching after something substantial. That is the position of the Western countries. They have heard so many things about India's culture. Still, they respect India's culture, spiritual culture. They are hankering after. But unfortunately the so-called yogis, swamis, come and cheat them. That is the difficulty. This is the first time that systematically we are presenting what is actual Vedic dharma or Bhāgavata-dharma.
Prabhupāda: This. No, not this. Where is that catalog?
Haṁsadūta: Brockridge, Keenan and Hall?
Prabhupāda: Ah, ah?
Haṁsadūta: Catalog? I think we must have left that in London.
Prabhupāda: They are also distributing our books, Macmillan Company. People are... Now there will be a big meeting on the 12th, September, how to organize. Because this kind of literature was there, there was none before this. The bhakti cult, this was never presented to the western countries.
Ambassador: Yes, yes. Mostly it was Vivekananda's explanation.
Prabhupāda: Vivekananda did not know anything about bhakti.
Ambassador: No, I mean he just, literally, it's not bhakti at all. Yes, it is...
Prabhupāda: Neither Vivekananda nor any swami. That is the regrettable fact. They, actually... Even Dr. Radhakrishnan, he could not present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You see? He's impersonalist, and he presented in a different way, and now Professor, Dr. Pirindher...?
Haṁsadūta: Philinder.
Śrutakīrti: Dillinger.
Prabhupāda: He said, he came to see me that "Now we have rejected Dr. Radhakrishnan."
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He said, he came to see me that "Now we have rejected Dr. Radhakrishnan."
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because everyone has speculated in his own way. Therefore we have presented Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. And if you have got time, we can read some of the portions, how we have presented as it is. So people are liking this As It Is. Otherwise, Bhagavad-gītā is well-known in the western country, all over Europe. But because it was not presented as it is, there was not a single devotee of Kṛṣṇa. You find out, the whole history. Bhagavad-gītā is meant for making the reader a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Is it not?
Ambassador: That's true.
Prabhupāda: Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So who can become fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa unless he's a devotee? So it is a transaction between God and His devotee. That's a fact. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). These are the clear declaration. He's asking everyone, "Just become My devotee. Always think of Me. Offer Me obeisances." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. "Worship Me." Māṁ namaskuru. He, He is deprecating the worship of demigods. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ. Find out this verse. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām: (BG 7.23) "Less intelligent persons, they simply worship the demigods." This is the statement.
Prabhupāda: Young people, even Young boys, they also take. So generally teenagers, they to...Teenagers, they take it very nicely.
Reporter (2): Why was that? I mean what was there, was there something special about the 1960's that made it more likely that people would go for...?
Prabhupāda: But before that, this movement was not there in the western countries.
Reporter (2): I know that. But there's got to be a mood of the times before something like this can catch on.
Prabhupāda: Well, that, not that time. Any time. This sweetmeat is sweet all the time. It is not that at a particular time it is sweet.
Reporter (2): But people have got to be hungry to eat it.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes, hungry, everyone is hungry. Because in the Western countries, unless they are hungry for spiritual consciousness, why they are hippies? They are frustrated. They are not going to live like their fathers and forefathers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha. That I have already explained.
- mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya
- śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
- āgamāpāyino 'nityās
- tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
- (BG 2.14)
Just like one is in winter season, and the winter... Not in this country. In Western countries, it becomes below thirty degrees. In Canada and what other places?
Acyutānanda: New Vrindaban.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Acyutānanda: New Vrindaban.
Prabhupāda: Virginia?
Acyutānanda: Oh yes. Thirty below zero.
Prabhupāda: So we have no experience below zero degrees. But in Europe, America, there is places. In Russia also, below fifty degrees. But they do not stop their business. They know that "Winter season has come. It will go away again." So devotees, even they are in distressed condition, they know, "It has come due to my bad activities in the past. It will go away. Let me suffer and finish it." Just like if you become, all of a sudden, infected with some disease. So what? You'll go mad? No. You know that "I have infected this disease. Let me suffer a few days. It will go away. That's all." This is the mentality of the devotees. They are not disturbed. And if he's not disturbed, then he's fit for becoming liberated.
Prabhupāda: They are not interested. Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They clearly says that "What this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or saṅkīrtana will do?" They says, yes. (laughs) They have become so dull. The Bhagavad-gītā, the culture of India, they have forsaken. They are now taking culture from Russia. Yes. This is the advancement of education. They are taking instruction from Lenin than from Kṛṣṇa. This is the position. Especially in India. Outside India they are interested, so many European, American, Western countries' boys and girls, they have joined and sacrificed their life. But in India they are callous. They think that "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa? We know that. It is very old story. Now we want technology."
Guest (1) (Indian man): In Delhi we have got quite a big number of good life members and helpful people.
Prabhupāda: Yes, there are, certainly. India is born Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by artificial means... Amongst the mass of people the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there, but amongst the so-called educated, advanced, they are trying to forget. This is the difficulty.
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: About sex one can talk with friends, not with father and mother.
Brahmānanda: Not with...
Prabhupāda: But in western countries it is very open talk. And open business also. Sarvatra. Sarvatra lokāntare 'pi vasanavagatya iha duḥkhānusaṅghanena, nivṛtta-kāma...(?) So one should give up this material sense gratification. The more you become entangled in material sense gratification, more you'll have to remain in this material world. Iti tiprokti malakam taṁ proktaṁ kāma karma prokta gena iti, ahaṁ deva upasya yesantai saṅghata nirvaira adrstitvaṁ samyag anvasya duḥkha, sukha-duḥkha eva, sukha-duḥkha...(?) Water is wasted?
Śrutakīrti: Almost full. Very slow.
Prabhupāda: Vīrarāghavācārya: deha-geha-gehayoḥ ātmiya buddhiḥ jihasaya tyāgecchāya (?). Ātma-buddhi, this family, society, friendship and love. Yes. To feel very much affection... What is called? Attached. Tyāgecchā. It should be given up. Therefore the sannyāsa āśrama. Just try to deliver this message very... Everyone is in darkness. Therefore I was speaking. They do not know what is siddhi. Yesterday, you were present? Yes.
Prabhupāda: You were Surat? He was asking, that bābājī, that, "Learn Sanskrit then you'll understand Bhagavad-gītā." So I immediately asked him that, "You go away, you go away from this place."
Guest: Not at all.
Prabhupāda: So he supposed.... I went to preach in the Western countries. Did they know Sanskrit? Then how they have become Vaiṣṇavas? It is a training, it is a training. It doesn't matter whether you know Sanskrit or not Sanskrit. But some rascals inquire, "Do you know Sanskrit, otherwise you cannot become..."
Guest: It is good to learn as many languages as you can, but if not that doesn't matter anything.
Prabhupāda: So far I am concerned, although people say I am Sanskrit scholar, but we are not educated as Sanskrit scholar. Whatever Sanskrit we have learned from this book only. A Sanskrit scholar is different, he learns grammar 14 years.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, yes. Because Viṣṇu could not excuse him, but as soon as he came to Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, fell down, and "You take all my assets of pious activities. You be saved immediately." That is Vaiṣṇava. When he begged, humble, "Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, you save me, I am in danger." "Yes, you take all my pious activities' result. You be saved immediately." That is devotee. Viṣṇu refused, "No, I cannot give you protection." Therefore he is more merciful, although he was attacked, he was harassed. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was merciful, "Let them enjoy. I don't want to kill them." Kṛṣṇa said, "You must kill. You must kill. Why you are deviating from your path? You must kill." Therefore he taught him Bhagavad-gītā, just to induce him to kill. But he was merciful, "No, they have done so much wrong to me, never mind. They are my relatives. I excuse. I don't want to fight." Yes. This is Bhagavad-gītā. You see? Arjuna is more merciful than Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wanted to see them all killed because they were, I mean to say, offender to the devotee. Last time, Kṛṣṇa says, "Arjuna, you fight or not fight, it is already settled. They are not going back home. They will be killed here. If you like, you take the credit. That's all. It is already settled." Then Arjuna understood that "My Lord is so persistent. (laughter) Why shall I resist Him? All right, I will do what He says."
Bali Mardana: You are more merciful than any of them, Prabhupāda. You have come to the western countries.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes, Vaiṣṇava is, if one man is real Vaiṣṇava. Just like see Jesus Christ. It is said that he took everyone's sins and he was crucified. So how much merciful he is, just see. But these rascals have taken, that "Let us go on committing sinful activities, and Christ has taken contract. He will suffer. And we shall do this." Such rascals. You see. They say that "Our Christian religion is so good that even we commit sinful acts, Christ will suffer, we shall not suffer." Just see.
Prabhupāda: ...coming, but he was interrupted by another rascal. He was advised by another rascal.
Govardhana: So one has to guard against being interrupted in that way.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the first thing is that you, this, "You shall not eat meat, you shall not do this, do that, do this..." People are generally sinful, especially in the Western countries, because they are all addicted to these habits. So he can be polluted very soon. Very soon he can be polluted. He's prone to pollutions by nature.
Govardhana: There are many people who come like that to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They seem to experience a taste, and then they go away and everything seems to be lost. What is their...
Prabhupāda: Yes, they...
Govardhana: ...position, if they are not able to stick to it?
Prabhupāda: Just like a disease. Somebody cures very quickly, somebody cures, takes some time, according to the, what is called, acuteness of the disease. Somebody dies, somebody falls down. It is a treatment. Just like some of our students in Hawaii, due to bad association, they've fallen down. But whatever sincere service one has given, that will never be lost. That's a fact. It will again revive. For the time being, as it is said by Arjuna, kala-karma-tamoruddham. (?) Just like the sky is clear. It may be covered immediately by some cloud. And again the cloud is removed, the sky is clear. So this māyā is just like cloud. It comes where the temperature is very high, the cloud does not come. All depends on the circumstances.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So in this way he decided, or he made a plan, not to kill. From superficial, material point of view, he was very nice gentleman. But Kṛṣṇa actually chastised, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś... (BG 2.11). "You are talking like a very learned man, but you are fool number one." This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. And then at last He said that "The most confidential part of knowledge I am telling you," sarva-dharmān parityajya mām e... (BG 18.66). "What I say, you do. That means I am asking you to kill, to do that." So he said, kariṣye vacanam, "Yes." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "I do not like to do it, but Kṛṣṇa wants me to do, all right." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. (laughing) I do not like to do, but Kṛṣṇa likes to do, I have to do it. This decision is very good. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, a devotee, is prepared to do anything nonsense for Kṛṣṇa, even in the estimation of ordinary person. People ask me that "You are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness and he is, say, encouraging war," because they have got experience of the last two wars in Western country. So when Kṛṣṇa encouraging the war, they do not take it very nicely. They say, "What kind of God He is?" because they have suffered in the war, and then we are presenting a God who is encouraging war. So there was one lawyer, you know, Goldsmith. He helped me, incorporated this...
Devotee: In New York.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Varṇāśrama-dharma. And I don't know why people don't follow it.
Prabhupāda: But there is no guidance. There is no guidance.
Dr. Patel: Even imperceptibly one āśrama may be following, is followed by western countries. They have got all the (indistinct) though they are not putting on (indistinct) and all. (Hindi) But presently this is, we are living in Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Varṇāśrama-dharma is there, but it is not organized. Varṇa... Because it is made by God, mayā sṛṣṭam, it cannot be violated. So... But it (is) in a perverted way. Therefore we are suffering.
Dr. Patel: But in old days, I think, this varṇāśrama-dharma was followed...
Prabhupāda: Strictly.
Dr. Patel: He comes from London, and he has received a telephone from him in London, when he was coming.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Dr. Patel: From, in London temple of Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, many pilgrims are coming from London, all parts of western countries. Africa.
Dr. Patel: Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthday.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you all also come.
Dr. Patel: On, on,...
Prabhupāda: On the eighth.
Guest (1): The sixth of March.
Dr. Patel: That is on the day of Holita. Holi? No.
Prabhupāda: Holi, yes.
Siddha-svarūpānanda: That is their Deity. They are worshiping. They have guards.
Devotee: They don't pray God, who has made all of this.
Prabhupāda: No, that one, I mean to say, rogue, thief, came to a bank manager. Somewhere in Western countries. And he brought some lotions. So he said that "I shall mix up these lotions. Immediately the whole bank will be blown up." So he became afraid because the scientists do that. So... "So you give me check immediately, two hundred millions or something, otherwise I'll mix it." So he gave him that check. And... Because they were... "It is time bomb. If you call police or arrest me within this time, then it will blown up." So in this way, he took away the check. And after sometimes, he phoned to the police, "This is the situation. Come and help us. Here is a time bomb on my table." So police came. They also took it very carefully in the chemical laboratory. And in the chemical lab, they were also afraid. Then they saw it is glycerin. That's all. Such fools are there. You see. It is simply exploiting the innocent public of their money, hard-earned money. That's all. And if you go to such foundation that "Give us some money for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, printing these books," "No, no. We are not interested in religion. We are for scientific improvement, glycerin."
Prabhupāda: For Your service.
Guest (1): For your service.
Prabhupāda: But for my sense gratification, I cannot do that.
Guest (1): Very good answer.
Prabhupāda: In a, in the Western countries, I had to sometimes do something which I should not have done. But I've done it to bring so many souls to Kṛṣṇa.
Brahmānanda: The preaching necessitates that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if there is no other alternative, what can I do? In the beginning I had no disciples. So I was cooking myself. So one gentleman, he... Later on, he became my disciple. He gave me some place. I was cooking. And in the refrigerator, I saw there was meat. (laughs) So I asked: "What is this?" He said, "It is for cats. I don't take meat." "All right. (laughter) I'll do (?)." So of course, I stayed there for three, four days. And if I cry, "Oh, I have violated my rules and regulations..." Rules and regulations can be violated when there is urgent necessity of service, not whimsically or for one's sense gratification. And that is, of course, in our present..., with the permission of the spiritual master, not one should think, "Oh, I have become so much great devotee, I can violate all the rules and regulations." No, you cannot. If there is need of violating rules and regulations, you must take permission. Now we have no temple. Under the circumstances, we are doing that. So you construct the temple as soon as possible so that people may not criticize you. (break) ...for all gṛhastha devotees, you should begin preaching amongst the gṛhasthas. It is not forbidden for the gṛhasthas to preach. Because preaching is required everywhere. Arjuna was gṛhastha. So yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya (CC Madhya 8.128). One must know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can become preacher.
Guest (2): Yes.
Prabhupāda: So how Caitanya Mahāprabhu treated them equally or gave better position to Rāmānanda Rāya than Rūpa Gosvāmī? This question was raised—not only now—when our Guru Mahārāja started Gauḍīya Maṭha. So he was allowing the sannyāsīs to live in palatial building and go in car for preaching work. So many such persons questioned, "How is that, sannyāsīs are going in car, living in palatial building?" So our Guru Mahārāja replied that "A devotee should be offered the best comfort of life. And if he would not have introduced this comfortable life, at the same time, to become pure devotee, then these devotees from Western countries will, would never come. They would never agree to sit down under the tree and, imitating Rūpa Gosvāmī... That is not possible." Do you understand or not?
Guest (2): Yes.
Prabhupāda: What is your answer?
Guest (2): I answered that...
Prabhupāda: No, no. You answer me. I am talking with you.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Artist is also business of the śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, but in our... I'm saying, in modern society in America, they are considered... (break)
Prabhupāda: Nonsense philosophy. They do not know what is the meaning of philosophy.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That, in your western countries the rascals, they are writing philosophy on sex life, which is known by the dog.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: And he is writing so many things. So they are rascals. (break) ...human being. You see. What is this philosophy? Sex life? Even dog knows how to have sex life. And he's writing philosophy. So this kind of philosophy can be appreciated by the rascals and... (break) We do not appreciate that. They are not philosopher. Philosopher means who is searching out the Absolute Truth. That is philosophy.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: That is philosophy. Darśana. Darśana means search out what is the ultimate. Jñānī ca bharatarṣabha (BG 7.16). Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna, ārto 'rthārthī jñānī ca bharatarṣabha, arto 'rthārthī jijñāsur jñānī ca bharatarṣabha. These are philosophers. Even the ārtaḥ, even a distressed person, he is praying to the Supreme Authority, "My God, I am very much hungry. Kindly give me my daily bread." He's also philosopher, because he's searching out the Absolute Truth. He's philosopher. Not this Freud rascal, elaborating how to have sex life. So this kind of philosopher, they... What is called? In Bengali: vane haye śṛgāla rājā.(?) "In the jungle a jackal becomes a king." So because western people, they have no... They're all less than śūdras. So a Freud has become a philosopher. Vane haye śṛgāla rājā. "In the jungle, the jackal has become a king." That's all. What is knowledge there? It is that... The whole western world is going on for industry, for making money, eat, drink, be merry, wine and women. That's... They're all less than śūdras and caṇḍālas. This is the first time attempt is being made to make them human beings. Don't mind. I am using very strong words. That is the fact.
Prabhupāda: This is India.
Viṣṇujana: ...worshiping...
Prabhupāda: Because, due to past culture, even the lowest class of men, he's also great philosopher than these rascals in western countries.
Hṛdayānanda: So all the other programs should be continued, and this program should be added.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Parivrājakācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Parivrājakācārya: Would the...? The persons who would take part in such program, they would have to be devotees in the first place. Is that...?
Prabhupāda: Devotees is... I have already explained. We are all devotees. Past condition, we are all devotees. We are not, we do not belong to this varṇāśrama. I have already told you. Suppose I am mopping. So that does not mean I am mopper. But I am teaching how to mop. This is our position.
Prabhupāda: Parāyanaḥ. So they think, "Now my day's business is finished. Now I have eaten." And dakṣyaṁ kuṭumba-bharaṇam. And if one man can maintain a family of four, five, men, "Oh, he's Mahārāja Dakṣa." Mahārāja Dakṣa, you know? He was a great personality. He was performing yajñas. So this is Kali-yuga. Even they will not be able to maintain a wife, a few children. There is no shelter. I have seen in, all these things in western countries. They have no fixed up. Just like animals. The animal also loitering in the street or in the jungle; they are loitering in a great jungle, a great city. That's all.
Mr. Sar: Yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ (BG 7.3).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the Māyāvādīs cannot understand. Although they have come to the point of siddha, still they cannot understand. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). They are siddhas because they have understood that "I am not this body, ahaṁ brahmāsmi." This much they have understood. But still they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Although they are trying...
Dr. Patel: Kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ.
Prabhupāda: Ah, tattvataḥ. They do not know. They say,"Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra." God is nirākāra. "I am as good as God." These theories, encumbrous theories... because they do not know. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3).
Prabhupāda: So this is our duty. Just like in this particular case, about our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that so many people are giving me the credit. Actually, I have no credit. It is already desired or it is already planned that "This time in Western countries, this saṅkīrtana movement..." So it is our duty. Similarly, our only duty is to carry out the order of the Supreme. Other things is already done by Him. So if we abide by the orders of the Supreme, then we get the credit. We should know that. So our only thing is to abide by the... That is... Another place, Bhagavad-gītā, is explained
- vyavasāyātmikā buddhir
- ekeha kuru-nandana
- bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca
- buddhayo 'vyavasāyinām
- (BG 2.41)
So those who are vyavasāya, niścayātmika-buddhi, their duty is to carry out the orders of the Supreme. And the Supreme is giving order in two ways: as caittya-guru from within and as spiritual master. Inside and outside.
Prabhupāda: ...upagīyamānāt.
Girirāja: "In these western countries when someone sees the cover of a book like Kṛṣṇa, he immediately asks, 'Who is Kṛṣṇa? Who is the girl with Kṛṣṇa?' " (break)
Prabhupāda: ...upagīyamānāt. Uttama-śloka-guṇānuvādā. Uttama-śloka-guṇānuvādāt. Uttama-śloka is Kṛṣṇa, who is worshiped by selected verses. So uttama-śloka-guṇānuvādā is executed by nivṛtta-tarsaiḥ. Nivṛtta-tarsaiḥ. Nivṛtti means ceasing; tṛṣṇa means material desires. Nivṛtti-tarṣair upagīyamānād. So this uttamaśloka-guṇanuvada, praising the Supreme, uttamaśloka, is done by the nivṛtta-tarsaiḥ. Nivṛtta-tarsaiḥ means one who has ceased material desires. He can chant. He can glorify. But it is not for ordinary mundane people. Nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣādhi chrotra-mano 'bhirāmāt (SB 10.1.4). And this chanting is bhavauṣādhi. There is some... (break) ...of holy name or glorifying the Lord is the medicine for this material disease. Material disease means repetition of birth and death. To stop this repetition of birth and death, this is the only remedy. And this is used by liberated persons. So such a nice thing, who can refrain from it? Vinā paśughnāt: (SB 10.1.4) unless one is animal killer, one cannot cease from this business. Therefore animal killing is so sinful.
Girirāja: "In these Western countries when someone sees the cover of a book like Kṛṣṇa, he immediately asks, 'Who is Kṛṣṇa? Who is the girl with Kṛṣṇa?' and so on." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa is all-attractive or God is all-attractive. This definition given by Parāśara Muni is a supreme perfect definition. Unless God is attractive, how He can be God? This argument, what do you think?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa showed this attractiveness in full. (break) ...any question you can ask. (break)
Bhāgavata: ...expansion or incarnation has the six opulences in full except for Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa is cent percent. Next to Kṛṣṇa is Nārāyaṇa. Next to Nārāyaṇa is Lord Śiva.
Acyutānanda: Lord Caitanya did not manifest so much opulence as Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, Lord Caitanya appeared as a devotee. How He can show the opulence of Kṛṣṇa? Sometimes He showed. But He was playing the part, bhaktākhyaṁ bhaktāvatāraṁ namāmi bhakta-śaktikam.
Bhāgavata: Some of the different incarnations, though, they manifest one of the different opulences or two, like that, isn't it?
Prabhupāda: Yes. All the opulences, not in full.
Prabhupāda: There was a cartoon. When I... One leader is approached for food, that "We are in scarcity of food." The leader says, "Of course, it is very difficult to assure you for food grains. But from next week you will have television." (laughter) Next week you will have television. So these improvements are going on, television, but they are starving. This is going on. Advancement of knowledge and learning is going on in discovering television, but there is no food. This is the mismanagement of the leaders. Dishonest. There is enough food. Punjab still produces food grains. Bengal still produces rice, but they are stocked by government men, and they are mishandling. They are lying on the station for dispatch, but they will not be dispatched. They are rotting. Rainy season spoiled the whole stock; still, they are not dispatched. Official: "There is no dispatch order. There is no wagons available." Simply mismanagement or bribe. This is going on. And people are suffering. How it is possible to purchase? Suppose India's income, the average income, is very poor. Suppose one man earns ten rupees a day, and if he has to purchase ten rupees simply rice for the family, ten..., what for others? Then he becomes dishonest. He wants to earn money by taking bribe in his own capacity. So bribing has become a custom. Anywhere you go, unless you bribe, you cannot get release. And they say that "Whatever salary we are getting, that is not sufficient. Our extra earning is by taking bribe." And now in the Western countries also the difficulty is arising. I do not know whether you are already, I mean to say, aware that so many boys, they are becoming hippies. They are reluctant to do anything. That is a very dangerous sign. If you... If unemployment, no engagement, that is not good for the country. Everyone should be employed. Everyone should be engaged in some service. That should be the policy of the government. And everyone should be happy, without any anxiety. That is good government. So many people unemployed, doing nothing, producing nothing. Is it not a problem?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our movement is that, that is first-class religious system which teaches how to love God. This is the sum and substance of our movement. There is a Sanskrit statement in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,
- sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
- yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
- ahaituky apratihatā
- yayātmā suprasīdati
- (SB 1.2.6)
If you want to be happy, then you must take to the superior type of religious system which teaches the followers how to love God without any motive, and which is never checked by any material condition. God's name is given here as Adhokṣaja. Adhokṣaja means beyond experimental knowledge. God has got many name according to different situation, and one of the name, for the materialistic person, adhokṣaja. Akṣaja means experimental knowledge. Akṣa means eyes or senses. Beyond sense perception. So we cannot speculate about God, but we can understand about God from authorities. This is the conception of Bhāgavata-dharma. So the human life is especially meant for understanding God. That is the version of the Vedānta-sūtra, Vedānta philosophy. The Vedānta philosophy teaches, athāto brahma jijñāsā, "Now this human form of body, which is above the lower grades of forms..." There are 8,400,000 forms of body. The soul is transmigrating, evolution. But when we get this human form of body, our main business is to inquire about God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now, if somebody inquires what is God, the immediate reply is, God is the source, original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So the human form of life is meant for understanding God, and according to our philosophy, if human body is not utilized for understanding God, then it is misused. If we simply spoil our life like the animals, eating, sleeping, sex life and defending, then the human life is spoiled like animals. The real necessity of human life is to understand God. Not only to understand God superficially, but to understand our eternal relationship with Him, and then prayojana, the ultimate goal of life, is to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is ultimate goal. And if you simply try to understand God, as we get it from the revealed scriptures, then after giving up this body, tyaktvā dehaṁ... Deham means this body. After this death... There are many deaths in many bodies, but after this death, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), he does not enter again into the material body. In his original spiritual body he goes back to home, back to Godhead. So this is sum and substance of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and we have got many Vedic literatures about it, especially the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So we have published Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. The publisher is Messrs. MacMillan and Company, and we are selling. It has already gone fifth edition. And each edition they have published fifty-thousand copies and this is the preliminary study book, to understand God. And then, when one is passed of this knowledge, then he can be given the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam which we have published like this, sixty volumes, all original verses from Bhāgavatam, and explained. Then... This is graduate study. Then after this there is post-graduate study, this Caitanya-caritāmṛta. This book is in twelve volumes, and other book, Bhāgavatam, is sixty volumes. There are many other corollaries, just like Science of Devotion. Have you got this book? No. Nectar of Devotion. So we have already published about two dozen books of this nature. So people are accepting, especially in the western countries. Recently we have received report. Some of the learned scholar professors, they have ordered all the books. They have introducing in their class. Yale University, Temple University. And they are enlisting my books in the bibliography, of Indian philosophy, and they are distributing to the learned circles. And last year we have sold four millions pieces of literature in the western countries. So we are encouraged. And these boys, young boys, they have encouraged me by joining this movement. And one priest in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that "These boys are our boys. How is that? Before that, they did not come to church. They did not inquire what is God. And now why they are mad after God?" This was his remark. And some of the American public, they inquire from them, "Are you Americans?" So this movement is getting ground all over the world, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And amongst the higher scholarly section also. This is sum and substance of our movement. Our principle is to become sinless. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā you will find this verse.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Bhagavān: ...which they are importing basically from the Saudi Arabian countries.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: Now, recently, in the last war in the Middle East, Saudi Arabians raised the price of the oil over double now, I think, as a pressure to the western countries to do things in their favor. Now they realized that the market for oil is in such great demand that they don't have to lower the price after the war, but they are going to keep the price. And actually the price is still increasing. So this is causing inflation.
Prabhupāda: So this problem will be solved as soon as we are localized. Petrol is required for transport, but if you are localized, there is no question of transport. You don't require petrol. Suppose in New Vrindaban, we stay, we don't go anywhere. Then where is the need of petrol?
Bhagavān: Petrol they also use for heating. And electricity.
Prabhupāda: No, heating. Heating we can do by wood. By nature.
Devotee: Yeah, but they criticize us that we don't want to feed...
Prabhupāda: No, why the hippies are lying on the street or in the park? Why? You give them relief. The whole Amsterdam city is full of hippies lying on the street and park. What you are doing for them? They are not poor men. They have got enough to eat. Their parents, father, grandfather, they can give. Why they are lying? What you can do? Go and pick them up. Make them nicely living. Why don't you do that? Talking nonsense. What is their answer? Why they have become hippies? They are not... The Indians may be poverty-stricken, but they are not poverty-stricken. In England the whole British empire is there. The whole American government is there. And still, western countries, they have got resources. They have means. They are not poor. Why your sons and grandsons are lying on the street? What is their answer? They are making plan that everyone would live materially very comfortably, but why these people, in spite of possessing material facilities... (break) Yes, this is the real problem.
C. Hennis: But that would cover businessmen and tradesmen and farmers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Farmers means... Nowadays especially in the western country, I see the farmer means they are raising cows for being killed. There is no cow protection.
C. Hennis: That may well be the case. That may well be the case. As it is not by any means...
Prabhupāda: I have seen. I have seen in England, I have seen in America, they simply raise the cows for being killed in future. You see? But the duty of the agriculturist, they should give very, very protection to the cows especially.
C. Hennis: This doesn't apply to bulls and bullocks and male animals generally does it?
Prabhupāda: No, bullocks also. Cow means bullock also.
C. Hennis: You have to establish first of all a...
Prabhupāda: No, it is already there. It is already there. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Those who are interested in producing means of living, or foodstuff, in the society, say, the mercantile, the agriculturist, they should give protection to the cows. That is very essential, that milk is so important thing. If you get... Now, we have, in your western country, we have introduced such ideas in West Virginia. We have started one community project where we are keeping cows also. The cows are giving more milk than in other farm. They are so jubilant. Even up to eighty pounds milk, they are giving, because they know that "These people will not kill me." They know it. They are very happy. We don't kill their calves. In other farms, as soon as the calf is there, in front of the mother they are killed. You see? So if these things go on without any brain, without any intelligence, you may make hundreds of organization, the society will never be happy. This is our verdict.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: They think it's so horrible to eat another person, but...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are suffering. Therefore you'll find, in the recent history, every twenty-five years there is a big war, slaughter, mass slaughtering of the people. How nature will tolerate? Now India has learned, imitated the western countries. Now there is war between India and Pakistan. Otherwise there was no such thing. During two wars between the Pakistan and Hindustan, unnecessarily, without any profit, millions of people were killed.
Karandhara: Just recently India exploded an atomic bomb, and now Pakistan is hurrying to get an atomic bomb also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on.
Guru-gaurāṅga: The government promised it would be only for peaceful purposes.
Prabhupāda: No, what do they know about peaceful conditions. They are all rascals. They do not know what is peaceful condition.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Especially in the western countries, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the people do not like to think that they are controlled or that they are...
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. He is controlled in every step, and he is thinking... Therefore rascals. In spite of this big, big house, nice road and good car, they are rascals. But he thinks falsely. He thinks that he is independent; He will not die. Then why does he think like that, like a foolish man? As soon as māyā kicks on his face, he will die. That's all. Immediately. "I have got some business, sir." "No, no, you must die immediately." And still, he thinks that he is not controlled. What is this nonsense? We shall go that side? That is knowledge, that "In spite of my all so-called advancement of civilization, I am controlled." That is knowledge. That is the beginning of knowledge. Then he should think how to get out of it. That is intelligence. And if, like cats and dogs, he thinks that "I am not controlled," then he is no better than cats and dogs. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). By prakṛti, by nature, he is pulled by the ears, "Come here!" "Yes, sir." "Come there!" "Yes, sir." And he is thinking, not controlled. As soon as he eats little more than he requires, "You must starve three days!" And he is not controlled. Just see. How much foolishness. And they are getting Nobel Prize. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19).
Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. That pure energy is spiritual energy, and from that spiritual energy the material energy comes out. That I have already said: From the soul the matter grows. So that is spiritual energy. The basic energy is spiritual. And because the spiritual energy is the cause and the material energy is the effect, therefore in one sense we can say there is no difference between material energy and spiritual energy. Because spiritual energy is the cause, and material energy effect. Effect may be presented in different forms. Just like cotton is the cause of thread. And the thread is transformed into cloth. But you cannot take cotton for cloth. The cotton is there in the cloth in a different, transformed, transform, but you cannot accept, when you require a cloth, you cannot take cotton. This is a crude example. So the cause of physical elements is spiritual energy, and the spiritual energy is... Both spiritual... Spiritual energy is coming from God. Just like... (aside:) Close. (sound of windows closing) Just like the sunshine is coming from the sun, and in the sunshine there are so many physical transformations. Is it not? In the sunshine... Just like we, ordinary men, we can understand. When there is absence of sunshine... In your western countries or in other..., the leaves of the tree falls down. And again, in the springtime, as soon as there is sufficient sunshine, immediately thousands of trees grows leaves. So there is action of sunshine. So sunshine is coming from the sun. And the sunshine is working in different ways, changing the color of the flowers, of the leaves, and... Or, so far I know, all the planets are, they're rotating on the sunshine heat. Eh? So therefore the sunshine is the original cause of all material, physical things. But wherefrom the sunshine comes? That comes from the spiritual energy. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi (Bs. 5.40). In the Brahma-saṁhitā. So that original cause is the spiritual energy. Therefore, because everything is coming from the spiritual energy, you can take everything as spiritual.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "I, I am smoking. I do not like to give it up." (laughter) You see.
Bhagavān: I think from here we have to walk on the sidewalk. There may be cars coming.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Bhagavān: Let Śrīla Prabhupāda...
Prabhupāda: It is very, very difficult for them. To give up intoxication, especially in the western countries. That Lord Zetland, Marquis of Zetland, when one of my godbrothers went to London for preaching, so Lord Zetland said, "Can you make me a brāhmaṇa?" And then he said, "Yes, why not? You have to give up these things: no illicit sex, no intoxication." He said, "Oh, it is impossible. For us, it is impossible." So actually, these four prohibitory rules is impossible for these rascals.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: They would rather die than give them up, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the... Even our men, after so much training, they're also falling down. It is so difficult thing. Actually, it is the most difficult thing.
Prabhupāda: Now, this is our proposal, that why you should kill cow? Cow may be protected to take milk, and use this milk for so many nice preparations. Then, so far meat-eating is concerned, so every cow will die. It is a fact. So you wait a few days only. There will be so many dead cows. So you take all the dead cows and eat. So where is the bad proposal? If you say that "You are restraining us from meat-eating," no, we don't restrain you. We simply request you that "Don't kill. When the cow is dead, you eat it."
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in the western countries now, the young people, when their parents grow old, they generally send them away to old age homes. So if they have no compassion even towards their own parents, that they would send them away, then how can we educate them to protect the cow which is just like mother if they're even willing to practically kill their parents?
Prabhupāda: So there is no question of protecting. We shall protect. Simply we ask them that "Don't purchase meat from the slaughterhouse. We shall supply you the cow after his death." Where is the wrong?
Satsvarūpa: Not enough meat.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Satsvarūpa: Not enough meat fast enough, they're eating so much beef.
Prabhupāda: No, fast, fast. Fast means you have to eat the cow's flesh. So how you can make it fast? The cows' number are the same. So it will remain the same. Simply you wait for the natural death. Where is the restriction? You have got a limited number of cows. Either you wait for the death, or you kill it at once, the number of cows are the same. So we simply request you that you don't kill them. Wait for the natural death and take it. What is the wrong? The number of cows is the same. You cannot increase it. Increase or decrease, the number of cows is there. So we simply request you that so long they're alive, let us take it's milk, and give nice foodstuff to the human society.
Paramahaṁsa: Catholic Renaissance Art, they glorified the dead body. Leonardo da Vinci, they glorified the body of man.
Prabhupāda: That is called bhūtejya. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā as worshiping the material elements. That's all. Here in western countries, that is the prominent thing, bhūtejya. (pause) What is the other side? Lion? (pause, break) They cover with some cloth, some loose cloth. Is it not?
Bhagavān: Yes.
Prabhupāda: This is French art, to make naked?
Devotee: Yes.
Bhagavān: Little more advanced.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Therefore nowadays students are walking naked in America. Advanced, more advanced.
Prabhupāda: He does not forget, but he... Just like the same example. You call it forgetfulness or imitation. Just like the child was offering. He was not required to offer oblation, but he was imitating the mother. That is natural. According to Vedic instruction, we are all living entities. God is also a living entity. But He is chief. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), (break) ...that He is the topmost living entity, leader of the all other living entities. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. The supreme one is maintaining all other living entities. So we are maintained. And He is maintainer. So sometimes... (to translator:) Yes, explain. There is... Sometimes it happens the father maintains the children, but the same child sometimes gives up the protection of the father. "Why shall I live under the guidance of...? I shall become independent." There are many instances in your western countries. He's happy being under the protection of the parents, but he rebels. He goes away. So that he can do. But if the father is very big, very rich, and the son leaves home and goes away to live independently, he suffers so much inconveniences and that is his choice.
Prabhupāda: No. First... Therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says we can't say... His point is we can't say something. There is so many aspects of religion. There is the bhakti-yoga, by love and by heart. There is the karma-yoga, by action. There's jñāna-yoga, by knowledge. He says if in western countries, we propagate bhakti-yoga, we take the risk of using bhakti-yoga like a drug or something like this, if you are dreaming or something like that.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) Bhakti-yoga by drugs?
Pṛthu Putra: He says, he made the statement...
Prabhupāda: That is...
Pṛthu Putra: ...according to the state of the French people, in right now, in this time.
Prabhupāda: But we do not prescribe drug. We ask them to give up drug. (laughter) (French)
Karandhara: What he's questioning, Prabhupāda, is whether or not bhakti-yoga is suitable for everyone in every instance.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only yoga meant for the human being. Any other yoga system practiced, they're against bhakti-yoga.
Prabhupāda: Generally, we see now, especially in the western countries, they are working so hard. The master is wine and woman. That's all. Is it not? They have made their master wine and women. In Paris we see everywhere. On the street they are drinking and talking. In Germany also, I have seen. You have been in Germany?
Devotee: Amsterdam is the same way.
Prabhupāda: Amsterdam is a place simply for prostitutes.
Devotee: It is the center.
Prabhupāda: This is very prominent in the western country, which we are asking, that no meat-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex. These things are only thing enjoyable.
Satsvarūpa: They think if you eliminate those, there is nothing left to live for.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Rāyarāma's statement. Yes. I am denying the bare necessities of life. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Who will try for becoming perfect in this way? Very disappointing. But still, Kṛṣṇa is so kind that helping so many. They are doing actually. All right, keep it.
Prabhupāda: Everything is worst. Sinful is sinful. Disease is disease. This body, either it is living or it is dead, it is not very important thing. Now see. And the whole world is after this body. Kṛṣṇa says, "The body, either dead or alive, it is not a subject matter for serious consideration." Now see. And what the world is going on? Simply for bodily... Body means senses. It is very difficult to the, for the western people to understand that body is not important thing; the soul is important thing. First of all, they do not know what is soul and then consideration of importance. This is their position. And if one cannot understand what is soul, what he will understand about God? Soul is a minute particle of God. If one cannot understand about this minute particle, then what he'll understand of the Supreme? In the laboratory, if you can test a little sample, just like take a little sea water, analyze, you chemically test, then you can understand what is the composition of the sea water. But if you have no knowledge even a small drop of sea water, how you'll understand the sea, what... That is their position. They do not understand even the sample of spirit soul, as we are. Simply they are trying to cover it. "There is no soul. There is no soul. Life is generated from matter." Although they cannot prove it. A fool's paradise. The fools, rascals, they are explaining the living force in some way, and other fools are accepting. This is the position of western countries, Europe and America. It is a fool's paradise. It is paradise, certainly. Very, very, big, big building and advancement, but all rascals and fools. Fool's paradise. (pause) And if you call a fool a fool, he'll be angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamyati (?). (pause) (break) ...so many, so much production, but if nature's law can stop this production, then the question of over-population. If the nature likes, it can produce three times, four times this production. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). After all, nature is producing. We do not know how to deal with nature. Therefore there is scarcity, and we say, "over-population." There is no question of over-population. There are so many hundreds and thousands of birds within this forest, other animals. They have no problems of over-population. Eh? (pause) All these men, who are living in these villages, so what is their means of livelihood? Agriculture or industry? Or service?
Professor Durckheim: No, nothing.
Prabhupāda: Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatim. Their aim of life is God realization, but they do not know that. And why they do not know that? Bahir-artha-māninaḥ: "They are thinking by these external features of the material nature they will be happy." That is very quite visible in the western countries. They are thinking that by constructing big, big, high skyscraper building their civilization is advancing, or machine, or technology. But they do not know this is not the aim of life. Real aim of life—to understand God. And na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā (SB 7.5.31). Durāśayā means something, utopian hope, which will be never fulfilled. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Piling up simply bricks and stone, they are thinking, "In this way we shall be happy." That is durāśayā. That is never to be fulfilled. And then how this society is being led? Andha. The leader is a blind man. The so-called scientists, technologists, philosophers, others, they do not know what is the aim of life. He is a blind man, and he is trying to lead other blind men. This is the position. So if a blind man tries to lead other blind men, what benefit they will get? Because they do not know what is the...
Prabhupāda: Why? You will forget. That is foolishness. "Because I shall forget, therefore I don't care for it"—this is childish, foolish proposal. If I say, "I will turn you immediately to this grass, and you will stay here for one hundred years," will you agree to stand like that for hundred years? Hare Kṛṣṇa. In the western countries actually there is no philosophy.
Mādhavānanda: When this is explained to them, they usually, if they are a little intelligent, can understand, but they don't want to understand.
Prabhupāda: That is the difference. And therefore they are rascals. No intelligence. Intelligence is there, but it is so covered that it is almost like trees. Trees are also intelligent because it is life. There is intelligence. You will see one tree is growing. If there is wall, it will grow like this. Have you seen it?
Haṁsadūta: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is intelligence. And it is proved by science. Dr. Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he has got institute. A machine records how a tree feeling. You cut one tree. How it is feeling pain, that is recorded in the machine.
Professor Durckheim: Yes, quite, quite.
Prabhupāda: And "Hallowed be Thy..." Those who are chanting the name of God, Kṛṣṇa, just see the result, whether they are improving or not than those who have no name. Come to the practical field. These boys and girls, before my coming in the western countries, they were all so many, I do not wish to... (laughing) Now by simply chanting the name, how much improvement they have done? So why there should be any objection to chant this name? And what is the loss there? Suppose anyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. There is no loss, but the gain is practical. Why do they not, these theosophists, do not agree to chant this name, simple thing?
Professor Durckheim: I think they don't know it, and then...
Prabhupāda: That is the fact. They don't know it. And still, they are theologicians. They are philosophers.
Professor Durckheim: No, they don't.
Prabhupāda: Just see. And still, they want to be masters of understanding God. I have seen many scholars in the western countries. They are well known as Sanskrit scholar. But they cannot quote even a verse.
Professor Durckheim: I see. Well, it's a pity. Sanskrit scholars...
Prabhupāda: Yes. But I understand in Germany there are many Sanskrit scholars.
Professor Durckheim: It seems so.
Prabhupāda: In Germany there are many learned Sanskrit scholars. But till now I have not met any one of them.
Professor Durckheim: Once when I was in Paris and walking the streets and nothing but stone and stone and iron and nothing alive, I suddenly heard a voice, coming from beneath, as if there were a big, big one. I heard the voice, if you like, of God and saying, "Well, isn't there not a little spot there where I could manifest myself?" The sadness of God. I heard the voice, "This is the sadness of God." Was very impressive to me. Really a real voice in myself. Because a town like this has no place, no channel, for His voice to come through.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Professor Durckheim: That was the feeling at that moment. (break) ...smell of the baked bread.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Professor Durckheim: Is it very agreeable?
Prabhupāda: What can be done? We have to be accustomed because we have to go all the western countries, the boiling meat. So let us go out now.
Haṁsadūta: You want to go in here, the car. (end)
Brahmānanda: He was planning to go and visit Revatīnandana.
Prabhupāda: Now, the Revatīnandana and this man and Śyāmasundara is making a clique. I can understand. What they are planning, that also I know. But I don't wish to disclose it. So if these things come, then how this movement will go on? Politics, diplomacy, fraud, cheating, these are the general qualification of the western countries.
Jayatīrtha: Sitting?
Prabhupāda: Politics, diplomacy, fraud, cheating. These things are the general qualification of the western people. Do you admit or not?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupāda: If they are, these things come within our movement, then it will not be succesful. Tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). One has to become purified. Even sometimes we have to take... But that is for Kṛṣṇa's. There must be now checking that all these rascals may not join and spoil the movement. You should not admit.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Because they will not get sufficient food, shelter, bodily necessities. Just like it is already declining, already declining. Just formerly in our childhood we saw the Western people very tall. Now they are not tall. They are decreasing already. (break) In the Western countries, still there are some but in other countries they are very lean, thin and drawn. Stature of the body will decrease. Memory will decrease. It is already taking place. So in this way, you just imagine, in 400,000 years after, what will be the condition. You take mathematical calculation. (laughter) (break)
Hṛdayānanda: He's asking again about geographically, what will it be like as far as temperatures and the different continents. That's what he's interested in.
Prabhupāda: Yes, gradually everything will be barren. At the end of annihilation everything will be barren and by scorching the sunlight will be twelve times higher. So everything will be barren and burned into ashes.
Prabhupāda: Then that is not for Indian and European, that is for everyone. That ignorance and knowledge is everywhere. It is not the Indian or American. That ignorance is everywhere.
Guest (1): But Swamiji, while the family norm here in the western countries is 2.3 children per couple, we still have a family norm of about six children per family. You know I think there are a lot of cultural factors that are...
Prabhupāda: No, that shastric injunction is, that is spiritual restraint. Therefore one should train himself when to have sex life or when to become father, when not to become. That education... Not to become like animal, dogs and cats, whenever there is sex desire, we must have. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Find out this, dharmāviruddhaḥ.
Reporter: Do they do anything like social work or other...
Prabhupāda: Yes, social work, this is the best social work. People are in ignorance, and we are giving them knowledge. Is it not the best social work? If you keep the man in ignorance and if you give him something... Just like your child. You simply give him to eat but no education. Then what is the benefit? Is that very good nice work, that you give your children nice food to become robust but no education? Is that very good nice work? People are, in this human form of life, especially meant for understanding God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the Vedānta-sūtra. So they are keeping them in darkness and teaching them technology, how to make cycle. That's all. The life is meant for understanding God, and they have been educated for making cycle and sewing machine. This is going on. Therefore there will be disaster. It is already there. Just like in America or any Western country, they have manufactured so many cars, and now they are flattering the Arabians, "Please give us oil." You see? Power crisis. And if they stop manufacturing, there is unemployment. And if they increase car, there is power shortage. So this dilemma, this modern civilization will have to meet this dilemma because they are going against the laws of God.
Indian man (1): A lot of dangers will be there. We'll be putting ourself into trouble.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we are in trouble. Even last war, when the trouble was too much, they began to go to the church. Even Churchill. And one gentleman—he is my Godbrother in Germany—he told me, after this war many German men and women became atheist. Everyone went to the church and prayed. Especially women prayed for return of their husband, brother, father. And nobody returned. So they thought, "There is no God. So forget about all these things." People became atheist. So this risky civilization is going on. They don't want to know what is God, neither they want to satisfy Him. And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is just the opposite, that "Here is God. You satisfy Him." That's all. "Never mind what you are, but by your occupational duty you satisfy Him. That is perfection." This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And this is taught in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa ultimately said this: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). In the beginning He said, yat karoṣi yat juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi kuruṣva tad mad arpaṇam: (BG 9.27) "Do it for Me." Yat karoṣi. It doesn't matter what you are doing. And very good work or bad work or anything, when He says, yat karoṣi, means "Whatever you are doing, do it, but the result give Me." Kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam. This is His desire. And at last again He said that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, and if somebody would say that "Simply I have to satisfy You? Then I have to satisfy others also. If I do not do, then I will be sinful," that, Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: (BG 18.66) "Don't worry. If there is any reaction, not doing other duty, simply to surrender to Me, and if there is sinful reaction, then I'll give you protection. Don't worry." This is the conclusion. And we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, that's all, without any malinterpretation. Everyone is interpreting in his own way. But we are not interpreting. We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. And it is becoming effective. Bhagavad-gītā was studied in the Western countries since a long time, since seventeenth century—but not like this. Before me, many swamis, yogis, they came to the Western countries, and most of them spoke on Bhagavad-gītā, but not a single person was a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. But now they are becoming by hundreds because the Bhagavad-gītā is presented as it is. This is the comparison. We have got Christians, Mohammedans, then Buddhist, Africans. Everyone we have got in our society, all very devout executor of our mission. Now here is Mr. Attar. Now he is Atreya Ṛṣi. Whatever he is earning, he is spending for Kṛṣṇa. Saṁsiddhiḥ hari-toṣaṇam. He is trying to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted.
Prabhupāda: Oh. The Canadian ambassador. He came to see me. He saw me in Delhi when our function was going on. He was speaking; he was so surprised. So this movement has got good potency, and every one of you join.
- bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra
- janma sārthaka kari 'kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
This is para-upakāra. The whole world is in darkness without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So enlighten them, para-upakāra. Human life is for para-upakāra; it is not animal life. To do good to others. Cats and dogs, they are selfish. But human life should be for para-upakāra. So this is the biggest para-upakāra movement. And it is very easy to take part in it. You don't require to be very expert. You... Everything is there. You simply carry the message like peon. Kṛṣṇa says this; kindly follow; that's all. We don't say that "I say this. I have manufactured this. I have become very big man, God." We don't say nonsense. It is all nonsense. Simply carry the message of Kṛṣṇa; then you are perfect. In the Western countries they are little fond of yoga. So the yoga system is also spoken by Kṛṣṇa in the Sixth Chapter. But the conclusion is, when Arjuna refused, "My dear Kṛṣṇa, it is not possible for me. This meditation, this praṇāyāma and dhyāna, dhāraṇā, yama, niyama, dhyāna, it is not possible for me. I am a politician. I have no time either"—he said frankly—then Kṛṣṇa satisfied him that "You are already the best of the yogis."
Prabhupāda: Where, in the East? Yes.
Ambassador: In the East. So there's been a crossover taking place.
Prabhupāda: Hm, yes.
Ambassador: Do you see it like that?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In Western countries they are now fed up with this materialistic way of life. And I think it will very soon collapse, the Western way of life. And naturally the next enquiry is spiritual.
Ambassador: Yes, it's already beginning.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The material life means animal life.
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So when the animal comes to higher consciousness, that is spiritual consciousness. We are combined at the present moment. We are actually spiritual, but some way or other, we have come in contact with matter, and we are covered by the material body, and... But we cannot become happy with this material interest. That's a fact. Just like the fish cannot be happy on the land. The example is: just like the other day we saw one crocodile. One or two... two, three?
Prabhupāda: Our ideal is that we have got this body, and there are some bodily necessities. That is the prime necessities. So we do not neglect these necessities of the body. But our culture is spiritual culture. Generally, people, being disturbed by the bodily necessities, they do not inquire about the spiritual identity. Actually this is the distinction between human life and animal life. (Hindi) (break) Our real purpose of this mission is to educate people about his spiritual identity. All people, they are misguided by the idea-(aside:) Don't do—that he is this body, everyone, all over the world, especially in the Western countries.
Girl: Why?
Prabhupāda: Because rascal fools, they have no knowledge, just like cats and dogs, animals. Do you admit this?
Haṁsadūta: (German)
Prabhupāda: Everybody's thinking that "I am this body." That is rascaldom. They have not even this primary knowledge of spiritual identity that he is not this body, although he has got very practical experience that a child is getting another body as a boy, the boy is getting another body as young man. Suppose I am... I know I had a body of a child. I still remember, when I was a child, six months old. I remember how I was lying down on the lap of my eldest sister. She was knitting, and I was seeing. Very vividly I remember. Now, where is that body? Tell me. Where is that body? Now sometimes I think that "I was jumping as a boy. And now I have to take this stick." So where is that, my jumping body? Tell me.
Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to understand that we... There are many sources of knowledge, but the summary is that knowledge gathered by experience and knowledge gathered by, through authority. So both knowledge is helping me about the change of body. So how can you deny it? And still, if you remain ignorant, then you are foolish. How you can say there is no life after death? I am giving you evidence by experience and by authority. Then mostly, perhaps you have got experience of the... In the, especially in the Western countries... Here, if you ask ordinary cultivator, he'll believe: "Yes, there is life." They they are philosopher. "Yes, in my past life I did something wrong. Therefore I am suffering. And if I do wrong, I'll suffer in my next life." You'll get this knowledge even from the cultivator. This is India.
Prabhupāda: Yes. People are in ignorance, ninety-nine percent.
Girl: (German)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Entire, whole world. They are going on. They are fighting on this bodily concept of life. So, apart from fighting... Of course, you cannot stop fighting. But at least a section of men must be in right knowledge. So what I say, that in the Western countries, they, even the very high, topmost educationists, they also do not believe that there is life after death, is it not? Am I right or not?
Girl: (German)
Haṁsadūta: She understands.
Prabhupāda: So just see how much ignorance is prevailing. So if you can dissipate this ignorance, darkness...
Girl: (German)
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Girl: (German)
Haṁsadūta: So that... She says, yes, if one thinks in this way, then life has no sense, that there's no sense to it, if one does not believe in a life beyond this life. It is senseless.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pañcadraviḍa: They say that smo...
Prabhupāda: I'm not after... I kick on your face. I don't want your money. (laughter.) You are taking books from us, and you are paying. Therefore I have adopted this means. They may not say... I knew that they would say in the Western countries. Therefore I thought that without books it is not possible. What is this?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Come this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jayapatāka is pointing to...
Prabhupāda: All of a...
Śrutakīrti: We can cross right... No? No.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatāka Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: There is no house?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You want Prabhupāda to come...?
Prabhupāda: So why he's claiming his money? Eh?
Pañcadraviḍa: He says, "Because I work for it."
Prabhupāda: That's said. And that is much. These rascals are chewing the chewed. One thing one has chewed, and throwing it, and again another person trying to chew it—if there is any mellow, if there is any sweetness. This is going on. Just like our Indian leaders, they are going to chewing the chewed. They are seeing the effect of material civilization in the Western countries, and they are going to imitate it, thinking that they will be happy with that. They are giving up their own culture, and they are going to accept another culture which is already failed (?) andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31).
Prabhupāda: This is science. People, for want of sufficient nourishment, they are becoming dwarf and they are discovering scientific method.
Brahmānanda: Intoxication... By increasing the intoxication the desire for food reduces. You eat less.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they are very much dizzy. And little hunger satisfied with meat. That's all. That is going on in the western country. The drinking... I have seen in airplane, bottles after bottle, they are drinking.
Devotee: Every day.
Yaśodānandana: Actually they have run a survey in America and they have found out that the greatest drug takers are housewives. The housewives, they are taking these weight-watching pills and they are addictive amphetamines. They are taking them and it gives them energy and they don't want to eat so much. So they are very skinny. They drink a little coffee and smoke cigarettes and take some pills and that is all during the day. Finished. And they remain very slim. And they think this is nice. So gradually they are replacing foodstuffs with pills.
Prabhupāda: That is nature's way because there will be no food in the future. So nature is training them how to live without food.
Prabhupāda: That I was speaking. Of course, it is very strong words. That Western people they are claiming very civilized, but I have got objection. Therefore I have come to the West. Because, for example, the animal-killing. The Western people are mostly Christians. Now, Lord Jesus Christ said that "Thou shall not kill." But the result was that two thousand years passed, but the people of the Western countries, they are still killing. So when they have accepted Christianity? What is your answer?
Carol: But the actual original scriptures aren't enacted in Western life.
Prabhupāda: I mean to say that Lord Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." So, what kind of men were there that Lord Christ had to request them not to kill? That means they were killers. Suppose if somebody's thief, and if I give him some good instruction, I say "You should not commit theft." That means you are thief. You are already. Otherwise why I say that "Thou shall not commit theft"? A naughty child is disturbing. I say, "My dear child, don't do this." Similarly, when Christ said, "Thou shall not kill," that means he said amongst people who were in the habit of killing. Is it not?
Carol: Hmm.
Amogha: When did you abide by the orders of Jesus Christ?
Carol: When did I?
Prabhupāda: Every one of you, Western countries. And if you have abided by the order of Jesus Christ, then why you are systematically killing? The order is, "Thou shall not kill."
Carol: It reminds me of the Gītā, you know? Where Arjuna is on the battlefield about to commit an organized sort of killing against his relatives.
Prabhupāda: No, two thousand years passed, but you could not accept the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. And you are all claiming that you are Christian. When did you accept Christianity? That is my question. Because you have disobeyed the order of Christ. So when did you accept? Two thousand years passed. Hmm? Who will answer this question?
Jayadharma: Never.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Jayadharma: They never accepted.
Carol: Hmm. What is the main part of your philosophy? Is it based on the Vedānta school?
Prabhupāda: No. This is no question of philosophy. You could not accept the simple instruction. Then where is the question of philosophy?
Carol: The question of love.
selfish ends, so there became a conflict between the...
Prabhupāda: Vested interest.
Amogha: Vested interest. Yes. So then there was conflict between the lower and the higher and it broke down. So what we're teaching is not actually the caste system as it is now or it was recently, but...
Prabhupāda: You have also caste system in the Western countries. You are not without caste system. There is a priestly class. So there are politicians, there are industrialists, merchants, and ordinary laborer. Where is...? How you can say there is no caste system in your country?
Jayadharma: But there may be the clergymen and the mercantile class and the soldiers and the laborers, in this particular society, but this society is breaking away from that because they are not recognizing the clergy class of men because nobody is going to church, nor is anybody giving any money to the church these days. This is why many churches...
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all think, that you say that your charge is "They are introducing caste system." But the Hindu caste system is already there. How do you say that I am introducing? That is my point.
Śrutakīrti: That man last night admitted. He said, "Now I must leave and do my fourth-class activities."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fourth class. This is the proof. Fourth-class men administering... Just like misadministration not immediately detected. After some time, when the case is unmanageable, it is detected. Therefore fourth-class men. Simply these Western people, they know how to earn money by hook and crook. So, so long the money is there it is covered, the fourth-class men. And when the money is finished, they are exposed, fourth-class men. They're simply covered by money. No social structure, no spiritual understanding, no character, nothing of the sort. Still India, so fallen, you... 95% people, living, husband and wife, very peacefully. And in the Western countries after six months' marriage, divorce. Are they not fourth class? Even the husband and wife cannot continue peaceful life, what to speak of others. Now this rascal Jawaharlal Nehru has introduced divorce in the Hindu society. Otherwise in the Hindu society separation between husband and wife is not even dreamt of. That, it cannot be. However there may be quarrelsome, but there is no question of separation. Husband and wife, they fight, everywhere. I have seen. My father and mother was fighting. I fought. (laughter) But there is no question of separation. Separation, they never think. Neither the husband can think of, nor the wife can think of. Even in the life of Gandhi there was fight between husband and wife, and the Gandhi one day drove his wife, "Get out from my home." So she was put into the street, and she began to cry, "Where shall I go?" And then Gandhi ans..., "Come on." Yes. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said, bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. The husband and wife may fight. It becomes a very serious thing, but don't take of it as serious. This is Hindu philosophy. Husband and wife quarrel should not be taken as very serious. They fight and again they live peacefully. Why this divorce? The divorce mean it kills the whole family life. The children goes away; the father goes away; the mother goes away. I have seen so many cases.
Prabhupāda: No, enjoyment in this way of life more sense enjoyment, you will never be able to enjoy or happiness. That is not possible. That is the nature's way. (Aside:) You can close the door. If you simply want to enjoy, you can enjoy. But you will create more miseries. So this is one way of life, that you enjoy your senses and create more miseries. This is one way of life. And if you want to decrease your miseries, then there is another life, which is called simple life. Simple life means you produce your food and you produce your cloth so you dress yourself nicely, you eat, yourself, nicely, keep yourself fit and glorify the Lord. This is one way of life. And the other way of life, that "We don't care for the Lord. Let us enjoy the senses to the topmost capacity and be happy..." So this way of life will never make you happy. You will simply go on struggling. This is one way of life. Another way of life, that the human life is meant for God realization...
That is Vedānta philosophy. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now, by evolutionary process, we have come to the human form of life, and it is meant for asking, "What is my constitutional position? Am I this body, or I am something else?" The dogs, he cannot put this inquiry. A dog, he thinks that he is dog, that's all. He is jumping, he is barking, and eating, sleeping, and having sex. That's all. If I ask one dog, "Please sit down. Hear Bhagavad-gītā," it is not possible. But you are human being, if I ask you, "Mr. such and such, sit down, hear from the Bhagavad-gītā," you can do that. First of all we must know the difference between dog and me. The dog is incapable to understand Bhagavad-gītā. But human being... Just like we are selling this book in the Western countries, many millions of copies, because they are human being. We are not selling among the cats and dogs.
Prabhupāda: Latin, yes. People's vote. The people may be asses, but still, their votes will be taken, the vox populi. The fourth-class, fifth-class men, and they are giving vote. And the mistake is detected. Just like this Nixon was voted and the mistake was detected. But still, they follow the same process, vox populi. What is the value of the votes of the fourth-class, fifth-class men? Better one intelligent man, if he knows things, if he is liberated, if he says, "This is right," that should be taken. That is Vedic civilization. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa. We are not accepting the vox populi. One person, the Supreme, that's all. This is our process. We don't accept vox populi. All these Vedic literature are accepted not on the people's vote, but who is presenting? Vyāsadeva is presenting, Kṛṣṇa is presenting. Parāśara Muni is presenting. Therefore they are accepted. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. So what is the value of their votes if they are not intelligent?
But in the Western countries this is the disease, vox populi. Socrates said there is soul, and he was killed because vox populi was against. Christ was killed because vox populi was against. This is the defect of the Western civilization. During the lifetime of Christ, nobody accepted. When he was killed, or crucified, then the other saintly persons, they gave their experience, what they learned from Jesus Christ. Christ could not give any words. Some sporadic words were there, and the Bible was made on that basis. Actually, the Bible is not the word, directly words of Christ.
Journalist: You founded the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. How long ago was that?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is since five thousand years ago or before that. You may say forty millions of years ago as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. But taking it by modern history, in your country, in the Western countries, I have started it since 1966 from New York. The movement is very, very old. But it is started in the Western countries since last seven or eight years.
Journalist: And where did it first start, which country?
Prabhupāda: New York.
Journalist: In New York.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Journalist: What is your background? Are you from India?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if the human form is insignificant compared to demigods, but still, it is very much desired, this human form of life, even by the demigods?
Prabhupāda: Yes, because very good chance of realizing God in the human form of life. Just like difference between Western countries and India. India, a very quick chance of realization of God. The atmosphere is so nice. So this planet is good for God realization, and the best place is in India.
Hari-śauri: Our temples, they are considered to have the same atmosphere?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Hari-śauri: To be just as potent as the holy places in India?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You can create that potency anywhere within this planet.
Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were saying yesterday that the rains, by the rains all good things come, and the rains come because of good yajña. So in this planet everybody is meat-eating, or in this country everybody is performing sinful activities.
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is decreasing. The more you are becoming sinful, the rain will decrease.
Prabhupāda: That is due to sinful life.
Hari-śauri: So if we increase the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement...
Prabhupāda: Then it will be regular. It is nature's punishment. You may not care what is sinful life, but that is recorded. That is foolishness. "I don't care for God, don't care for what is going to happen." That is foolishness. People, lower planetary system, they are like that. In this planet also. In Western countries there are many places. "Don't care for anything, what is sinful life, what is going to happen. Let us enjoy, that's all." This is their philosophy. "Let us enjoy, that's all." Materialistic point of view is like that. They do not know that we are eternal and we are responsible for our activities. That is knowledge. But they have no knowledge. They simply want to enjoy. They do not care for death also. Simply sense gratification. That's all. This is called dānava, dānava life. The scientist explain for so many varieties. They accept there are varieties. Why there are so many varieties of life?
Hari-śauri: They were simply approximating. They said from recent discoveries and examination of fossils and like this...
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Hari-śauri: Is this the reason why others who have preceded yourself earlier on, is this the reason why they were not successful, because they were trying to judge the results?
Prabhupāda: Who?
Hari-śauri: Others who have come before yourself? When they tried to preach in the Western countries?
Prabhupāda: They did not try. They came officially, and that's all. Not even tried to preach this.
Devotee (1):. Just like Arjuna on the battlefield, you simply had to try for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Arjuna said, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava: (BG 18.73) "Yes, I shall carry out Your order, nothing else. Yes, You are asking me to fight. I will fight. That's all."
Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if one goes to the temple, if one attends the temple regularly and inquires from the devotees about the devotional principles, and because of some reason, it's not necessarily... it's not convenient for him to live in the temple at that time, and he is living with people...
Prabhupāda: No, no, you live in temple or without temple, if you follow the instruction, that is wanted. If you live without temple and chant sixteen rounds and observe the regulative principle, that's all right. It doesn't require that you should live in the temple. And if you live in the temple and do all nonsense, then what is the use of living in the temple?
Prabhupāda: I don't think I am successful, but people say.
Dr. Copeland: (laughs) Very good.
Prabhupāda: I will be successful when everyone will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Copeland: But in Western countries, where people have to adopt to the different style of dress and a different life-style altogether, it means that you're asking for a very large commitment from people, and yet they do it. Are you saying that it's the strength of what you're preaching, or are they unhappy with what they've found otherwise?
Prabhupāda: No, they look very nice with this dress. Don't you appreciate?
Dr. Copeland: Uh, that wasn't in my question, That's... (laughs). Yes, I think it's very nice, I couldn't do it. I wouldn't shave my hair, and I wouldn't dress like that.
Prabhupāda: You cannot sacrifice so much. They have sacrificed.
Amogha: Other versions of the Gītā besides Lord Caitanya's.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not authorized. Therefore we say specifically, "Bhagavad-gītā As It is," no interpretation. Here Kṛṣṇa says that man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So we preach that thing. We preach that "You be Kṛṣṇa conscious." Man-manāḥ: "Always think of Me," Kṛṣṇa says. And we are teaching these disciples, "Always think of Kṛṣṇa." There is no difference. We don't create. And therefore it is successful. Others, they created their own concoction; it was never successful. Before me, so many swamis came to the Western countries. They were not successful. Not a single person was Kṛṣṇa conscious, in the history. In the history of the last two hundred years so many swamis are coming in the Western countries. They also speak on Bhagavad-gītā, but not a single person was Kṛṣṇa conscious. And since we have presented Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, hundreds and thousands. This is the proof, that they presented something concoction. It was, what is called, impotent.
Prabhupāda: ...defect of the Western country is practically there is no social structure. The father, mother, they divorce, and the children become careless. Most cases this is the defect.
Director: Happens, yes.
Prabhupāda: I have seen many of my students, their family, whole family disrupt on account of father and mother, even in old age, divorce. I have seen Brahmānanda's mother. His father was very... still living. Very good businessman, very nice family, good income. All of a sudden the father and mother disagreed, they divorce. The sons were somewhere; the daughters were somewhere.
Director: That's cases we deal with. Adoption, and...
Prabhupāda: And the father married again, the mother married again. They were not happy, and the business also closed. So by one instance I can understand that how in the Western countries people become out of social structure. The root cause is godlessness. Root cause.
Director: And now divorce is getting easier too, isn't it?
Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous law to allow divorce. Divorce should not be allowed. Even there is some disagreement between husband and wife, it should be neglected. According to Cāṇakya Paṇḍita... He was great politician. He has said that dampatya kalahe caiva bahvārambhe laghu kriyā. The husband and wife's quarrel should not be taken very seriously. Ajā yuddhe (More quote by Cāṇakya) Just like fight between two goats. They are fighting, and if you say "Hut!" they will go away. Similarly, the fight between husband and wife should not be taken very seriously. Let them fight for some time; they will stop automatically. But the husband and wife fight, and he, as soon as he goes to the lawyer and he gives incentive, "Yes, come to the court." This is going on. So the first defect is there is divorce law. Another defect is that there is no method how to train a man to become first class. That is there in the Vedic civilization. Now of course in India that is also now abolished by degradation.
Prabhupāda: In Paris very, very old men, seventy-five years, eighty years old, they are going to the nightclub, paying $50 entrance fee, then they spend money for woman, wine. And few hours they stay there and come back. They are all old men. It is very difficult job, but still by Kṛṣṇa's grace you are accepting this principle. That is great mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is very, very difficult. One old man, I told you that Marquis of Zetland? In London? So he proposed one of my Godbrothers went, "Can you make me brāhmaṇa?" "Oh, yes. You give up this habit." "Oh, that is impossible. That is impossible. This is our life." So in the Western countries that is the life, to have illicit sex, meat-eating, drinking, and gambling. There are organized clubs, brothels, hotels, only for this. People are accepting this principle, young boys like you, it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy on us. Otherwise it is impossible.
Devotee: These old men, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they're trying but they cannot enjoy it very much any more.
Prabhupāda: Unless they enjoy with Kṛṣṇa, it is impossible.
Devotee: They are not finding it so pleasurable as young men?
Prabhupāda: And how we are finding pleasure in chanting and dancing? It is a practice.
Prabhupāda: To get impetus to go back to home, back to Godhead. To come to Australia we get impetus to go to hell. (laughter) (break) Hell means anywhere where material happiness is given more importance. Mahat-sevāṁ dvā r a m āhur vimuktes tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgi... In the western countries and..., they are simply busy in sense gratification. So that is the way of hell. (break)
Devotee 5: ...said that "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God."
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Devotee 5: You have said, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God." Well, um, what I want to know is, is not God eternal, therefore how was there a beginning? And if the beginning was the word, who was it spoken by or how was it spoken if it was the beginning?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? In the beginning there was word. So what is the difficulty to understand?
Devotee 1:. He's saying if everything is eternal, then how was there a beginning?
Prabhupāda: Beginning of this material world. This material world has beginning and end. Just like this material season, it has beginning and end. Hm. This is troublesome.
Śrutakīrti: So we are following Lord Caitanya's...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like I came to western country with no hope. I knew that my Godbrother, Bon Mahārāja, came, he failed. Then Gosvāmī Mahārāja was there, so many swamis and yogis came here, nobody could turn them. So I came here just with a purpose, "Let me try." But I was not hopeful at all. But Kṛṣṇa's grace, it is now successful.
Devotee (1): A great success.
Prabhupāda: And therefore let us try. And success, no success, depend on Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee (1): Already I have noticed a difference with the new temple which has opened in Melbourne, with the group of adults that are coming around to become interested now because we have a permanent place here.
Prabhupāda: On the whole, we have got very nice house. (Prabhupāda gets out of car and is greeted by devotees) Thank you. (end)
Śrutakīrti: The following is an interview which took place on May 25, 1975, in Lautoka, Fiji, which was later broadcast on a local radio station.
Interviewer: Why did you choose to go to America and propagate the teachings of Lord Kṛṣṇa in a western country?
Prabhupāda: Because Indian people, being subjugated for at least one thousand years, they have lost their original culture. And, being poverty-stricken, they are simply after money, by hook and crook. So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayā apahṛta-cetasām (BG 2.44). Persons who have lost their consciousness on account of being too much attached to material enjoyment, they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So I thought that America, they have enjoyed enough of this material happiness, money and women, and they are now becoming disappointed. So they are at least on the platform of renunciation. They don't want any more like their fathers and grandfathers. Of course, they are not guided. Therefore I preferred to go there to guide them. So almost fifty percent of my devotees are, they are collected from these disappointed persons, young men. They are going astray. So they appreciate that I have saved them. Therefore they are after me, this younger generation, and they are helping me in broadcasting this Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Interviewer: Coming back to this question of the western type of civilization, do you feel that the success of the movement in the western society is an indication of the need being felt by the western man that has been lacking in spiritual ideologies?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. But the thing is that they are very intelligent. There is no doubt about it. Materially, they are always advanced. Materially, when they are manufacturing machine of the airship, in India we are manufacturing sewing machine or cycle. I have seen in the World Fair the Indians were very proud of manufacturing cycle and sewing machine, whereas the Americans and Europeans, they were showing the how subtle machine of this jet plane are there. So materially, they are advanced. There is no doubt about it. Hundred years. But spiritually they are not. Therefore, I am an Indian, poor Indian—they are coming to me. Because they understand that spiritually... Not only me, any swami who go, they crowd to him, "If there is something spiritual?" Unfortunately, the other swamis, they go to exploit them, to cheat them. They do not... Neither they do know what is spiritual life; neither they could give them. For example, for the last two..., hundred years or more than that the swamis are going; not a single person was a Kṛṣṇa devotee in the history in the western countries.
Prabhupāda: Balance is that you should be reciprocal exchange. What you haven't got, you give me; what I haven't got, I give you. This should be the process of exchange. Then the world will be united. When there is exchange of gifts. But our India followed the principle for begging. "Give me men. Give me money. Give me wheat. Give me rice. Give me war materials." Simply begging. So we must give something. This is the first time we are giving something. Otherwise, India was a beggar simply to the western countries. For their technical education they are going to the western countries, and when there is war, they are asking America, "Please give us war materials." And when they give war materials to Pakistan we become envious. But you are also taking rice, ḍāl for this(?). So why should you remain beggar?
Interviewer: Finally Swamiji, what is the relevance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in our modern society?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Interviewer: What would be the relevance of Kṛṣṇa's teaching in...
Prabhupāda: Relevance mean you are spirit soul. You are not this body. This thing first you have to understand. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is India's philosophy, that "I am spirit soul." And if you realize brahmāsmi, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na... (BG 18.54). As soon as you realize that you are not this material body, you are spirit soul, then immediately you become jolly, prasannātmā. Prasannātmā means na śocati na kāṅkṣati. He has no more any hankering for things which he does not possess, no more any lamenting which he has lost. Take, for example, that we have lost our portion of country as Pakistan and fighting since... This was a plan by the British government that divide them in such a way. They will perpetually fight. They will never be happy. This was their plan. That has been successful. But we are lamenting. Both... Pakistan is lamenting or not, I do not know, but Hindustan is lamenting. Gandhi was against this partition. But Jawaharlal Nehru, just to become prime minister, immediately divided.
Prabhupāda: No, misunderstanding, there are... That will continue. You see?
Yogi Bhajan: I hundred percent agree. When we wanted to join the...
Prabhupāda: Especially in the Western countries they had misunderstanding with Christ so that they crucified him. You see? So this is the...
Yogi Bhajan: We can do all that, and still, it will be useful.
Prabhupāda: No, no, we can... We can advise.
Yogi Bhajan: Your visit will be useful, and it will be very divine to come with a message, with a conviction. You know, I have come to this conference here.
Prabhupāda: Which conference?
Yogi Bhajan: This, what is happening in Waikiki.
Girl: Rainbow Festival.
Yogi Bhajan: That Rainbow Festival.
Prabhupāda: That is not very important thing. It has nothing to do with spiritual..., but moral instruction.
Siddha-svarūpa: For kṣatriyas?
Prabhupāda: No, for everyone. You can get from India, Canakya Paṇḍita. It is called Cāṇakya-śloka, "Verses composed by Canakya," Cāṇakya-śloka. (break) ...western country, they have come to a stage in which by nature they are now seeking after some spiritual importance. And that is available in India. But these rascals, they are taking advantage of it and exploiting, this Guru Mahārāja, these yogis, these... But these people, western people, they are searching after this. So it is our duty especially to give them the right thing. They are searching after, and they are taking advantage of it and exploiting them. (break) ...is one of them.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, that's why they're not allowed in the United States. They're not accepted as... (break)
Prabhupāda: It has gone to India. (break) Yogic āsana exercise is very popular. They think it is spiritual, exercising the body.
Prabhupāda: So we are giving this chance to everyone, devotee Bhāgavata and grantha-Bhāgavata, to get them raised from the lower condition of life. Kāma-lobha, lusty desires or greediness. This is the process. And practically you can see all these young men. They have no more lusty desires or greediness. They are also young men. They never ask permission from me any time, "Now, today, I want to go to the cinema." They have got all the monies in their hand. They never misspend without my permission. They are also young men, born in the western countries, addicted to so many bad habits. But they have given up. This is practical. Professor Judah has written me letter. You know him?
Dr. John Mize: No, I do not.
Prabhupāda: That "I am simply amazed how you have converted drug-addicted hippies to become servant of Kṛṣṇa and the humanity." That is his puzzling. But the method is so nice that it automatically becomes. Therefore we are stressing on the method.
Brahmānanda: ...and the bird is also in India.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: The scientists, they would say, "Somehow or other, the bird or something..."
Prabhupāda: "Somehow or other." This is science. "Somehow or other," "maybe," "perhaps." This is their science. (break) ...speculation. The whole Western countries, their all knowledge simply speculation. Nothing definite. (break) ...Professor Dimmock has "Definitive..." What is that translation, or something like?
Harikeśa: Definitive.
Prabhupāda: Definitive, then translation of Bhagavad-gītā, like that. (break)
Devotee (4): Dogs, they are becoming attached to the human being. Are they becoming human beings in their next life?
Prabhupāda: Maybe. (break)
Yadubara: ...becoming attached to the dog. So they are becoming dogs in their...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dog is never attached.
Prabhupāda: It is not a problem. Just like there is disease, and there is remedy also. And as much as the disease is chronic, the remedy is also costly. So in the western countries—do not mind—they are not trying to educate first-class men, and that is the difficulty. This advancement, technical knowledge, to have nice motor cars or big, big buildings, highways, this is very good, but this is not the aim of life.
Mayor: No, material things should not be.
Prabhupāda: They are missing the aim of life. That is the... The aim of life is, an..., not according to Vedic, but anyone, the aim of life is how to realize God. That is aim. In the animal life or in other lives less important than the human being there is no question of God realization. In the human life, the civilized human life, there is religion. It doesn't matter whether one is Christian or a Hindu or a Muslim or a Buddhist. These are the principle religions of the world. So any civilized man must be inquisitive to know what is the original source of everything. That philosophy is there. It is called Brahma-sūtra or Vedānta-sūtra. Perhaps you have heard the name, Vedānta philosophy. Veda means knowledge, and anta means end. In the materialistic way of knowledge they did not find any end, and they accept it "That this is progress." But one must come to the end of the knowledge, what is the ultimate knowledge. So generally they are missing what is the ultimate knowledge. We are searching after knowledge in so many ways but what is the ultimate knowledge? The ultimate knowledge, Vedānta, means end of knowledge. End of knowledge means to understand the original source of everything. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The human inquisitiveness should be up to that point, what is the origin of everything. Because human life is not a spot.
Prabhupāda: And to serve under somebody, that is śūdra. So at the present moment people are being educated to serve under somebody. Technology, one is very expert in some particular line of technology, say, computer machine... You know how to operate. It is a big qualification. But unless he gets a job under some big establishment, he is useless. He cannot live independently. The first-class man will live independently. The second-class man also will live independently. And the third-class men, they will also live independently. And those who cannot live independently, they are fourth-class men. So at the present moment we are simply creating fourth-class men. So fourth-class men, they are prone to be degraded. If you don't raise them to become first-class, they must degrade. So that is the position of the present civilization. They are creating all fourth-class men, and gradually they are degrading. So now you should take up very seriously how you can create some first-class men. First-class, second-class, third-class also. If you simply remain in the fourth grade, technology... Technology means he has to serve under somebody. This industry, that is also the same thing. Hundreds and thousands of men are working. They are fourth-class men. And śūdra. Just like formerly in Indian village... Still there are. They are self-supported. Suppose there is a blacksmith. If you require some black iron instrument, you go there and he will prepare immediately. Say, an oil crusher, extracting oil. So weaver, self-supported. Now these things have been taken in larger scale. That is called industry. But actually these things are meant for the śūdras, fourth-class men. So the problem is that if we keep men fourth-class or increase only fourth-class men, so these things are automatic, the resultant action. Therefore, in the western countries especially, everywhere, all over the world, the attempt should be how to create first-class, second-class. At least these two classes required: good politicians, administrators, and good advisors. So this program we are placing before the world. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So I would suggest that in your country you are resourceful. You can take up this movement very seriously. And it is not expected that cent percent of the population will become first-class, but there must be ideal groups of first-class, second-class, third-class and the rest, fourth-class. That is required.
Prabhupāda: After all, they are human being. Therefore we have collected some nice souls. (break) If you can go to the jungle, that is no hindrance, but let us take the opportunity of the civilized nations, preach them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ (BG 3.21). They are leading the whole civilization. If they are convinced, it will be great benefit to the human race. (break) Also my Guru Mahārāja said that "You go to the western country." If he had said that "You go to the jungle," I would have gone. (break) ...preacher, either the jungle or the city is the same. Nārāyaṇa-paraḥ na kutaścana bibhayati. One who is devotee of the Lord, he does not make any discrimination that "This is jungle and this is city." Svargāpavarga-narakeṣv api tulyārtha-darśinaḥ (SB 6.17.28). For them, everywhere, Kṛṣṇa's property. So where Kṛṣṇa asks him to go and serve, he will go. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also natural. Because when the husband and wife are there or the father and daughter is there, so the daughter is subordinate to the father and the wife is subordinate to the husband.
Woman reporter: What happens when women are not subordinate to men?
Prabhupāda: Then there is disruption. There is disruption, social disruption. If the woman does not become subordinate to man, then there is social disruption. Therefore, in the western countries there are so many divorce cases because the woman does not agree to become subordinate to man. That is the cause.
Woman reporter: What advice do you have to women who do not want to be subordinate to men?
Prabhupāda: It is not my advice, but it is the advice of the Vedic knowledge that woman should be chaste and faithful to man.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Any class man, you can train him. It requires training. Even one is in the last-class, fourth-class, fifth-class, sixth-class, if he likes he can be trained up to become a first-class man.
Reporter (3): How many followers do you have?
Prabhupāda: Well, to find out first-class man is very difficult. Therefore, our followers, you cannot count a large number. We are training them to become first-class man. Still, we have got about ten thousand followers in the western countries.
Reporter (3): In the western countries.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter (3): Where do you train them in the western countries?
Prabhupāda: We have got our headquarter in Los Angeles and we have got many centers all over the world.
Reporter (4): Who is God? Who is God?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Devotees: Who is God?
Prabhupāda: Who is God? God means, you know... You have got any definition of God?
Reporter (4): Pardon me?
Harikesa: Do you have a definition of God?
Reporter (4): That's beside the point. I am asking the Swami who is God.
Prabhupāda: Lighthouse for the river?
Ravīndra-svarūpa: Yes. These buildings are all rowing clubs. They're for boating, boathouses.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So still they are rowing house? No.
Kīrtanānanda: Yes. It is a big sport. They race. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...idea is there in the western countries? No.
Kīrtanānanda: Not very much. Although the idea is there that the best education can be secured when boys are separate in school. That idea is there. The best families have always sent their sons away to school.
Prabhupāda: That should be followed in our system. Boys and girls must be separate. (break) ...introduce now. How long? What is time?
Brahmānanda: It's still a little early.
Prabhupāda: Early? (break)
Guru dāsa: The concept in sport of celibacy is also there. The best sportsmen are supposed to not take intoxicants or also engage in sex life. That was the training. (break)
Ravīndra-svarūpa: ...will end in this park here.
Prabhupāda: Oh. It will come this way?
Ravīndra-svarūpa: It will come from the other direction and end here. Down under these trees is a very nice place. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...going through the city?
Ravīndra-svarūpa: We go through the city. The city's just on the other side of these trees.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's one of the chapters in our book that Mādhava is working, that inductive knowledge, there is nothing like inductive knowledge. It's all māyā; it's illusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is illusion. (break) ...western countries it is full of inductive knowledge. That's all. (break) Dr. Radhakrishnan used to say, on sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66), "It is too much." (laughter)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He died just a few months ago.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he died, and brain fag. All his knowledge, last five, six years—he could not recognize his own men.
Gurudāsa: When we went to see him, he hardly could speak.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So your questions also is answered?
Anne Jackson: May I ask you a few questions? Could you please tell me a little bit about your life and how you knew that you were the spiritual master for the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement?
Prabhupāda: My life is simple. I was householder. I have still my wife, my children, my grandsons. So my Guru Mahārāja ordered me that "Go and preach this cult in the western countries." So I left everything on the order of my Guru Mahārāja, and I am trying to execute the order. That's all.
Woman: And is this picture here the man...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, he is my Guru Mahārāja.
Woman: And he is no longer living.
Prabhupāda: No.
Woman: He spoke to you spiritually?
Prabhupāda: So this is my (indistinct). That's all.
Prabhupāda: Not in this country, in every country. Why do you say this country or that country?
Devotee: Well, I was saying about alcoholism in particular.
Prabhupāda: No, that is also in India. That is not uncommon. At least, they are learning, by your grace. (laughter) By imitating the western countries, they are learning everything.
Devotee: I was reading. There's a group called A.A., Alcoholic Anonymous, and they have a treatment for curing this disease. And it's the only one that's been successful. And one of the initial steps in achieving success in this method of theirs is that one agrees to the possibility of an ultimate reality or God. And because of that, they've had success in curing alcoholism.
Prabhupāda: What is that process?
Devotee: Well, it's a self-analysis. It doesn't go very far, but at least they accept that God exists and...
Prabhupāda: Self-analysis, that requires intelligence. But our process is, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." There is no difficulty. So it is better than A.A.
Devotee: Yes, much better. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: But everyone wants sunshine. Why in one place denied, and one place there is sunshine? You are not free. Even though you want sunshine, there is no sunshine. So how you feel free? You bring sunshine. But that is not happening. There is superior arrangement. So to accept that superior arrangement, that is real business, not to declare freedom falsely. That is not possible. If I say, "I am free from the law-abiding process, law given by government; I am free from the law of the government," that is not possible. If you become outlaw, then you will be arrested and put into jail. So what is the use of declaring that "I am free from the government laws"? There is no freedom. Whatever little freedom is given to us, if you utilize it properly, that is very nice. If we unnecessarily declare that "I am free from any obligation," that is madman's proposal. That is the mistake of the modern man, that, especially in the Western countries, unnecessarily they are declaring freedom in so many ways. Unnecessarily. He is not free, but he is declaring. That is described in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, I think, or in some other. No? Prema-vivarta.
Prabhupāda: Because they want to live in the city. That is the... Here if they grow, then they will be engaged here. They cannot go to the city.
Brahmānanda: They grow cash crops, make money, and then go spend it in the city.
Nityānanda: The principal livelihood of our neighbors is to grow cows for slaughter.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is all over Western countries.
Nityānanda: They don't have to work. They simply put some cows in their field, and when the price is high, they sell them. In this way they live.
Brahmānanda: What is the attitude of the neighbors to us here? They like us?
Nityānanda: Pretty friendly.
Brahmānanda: There's a papaya.
Prabhupāda: They grow nicely here?
Nityānanda: Er, we're trying. I don't know yet.
Brahmānanda: They are trying very hard to be friends.
Prabhupāda: Who is trying more? America?
Brahmānanda: I think so.
Ambarīṣa: Yes. They just had a big conference in Finland. They all signed... All the heads of state of the Western countries signed a document saying that they would respect each others' boundaries.
Prabhupāda: Russian boundary, American boundary meets there. What is that? The corner?
Jagadīśa: Alaska?
Prabhupāda: Alaska. That boundary? No.
Brahmānanda: No. This is in regards to Europe, isn't it?
Jagadīśa: Eastern Europe. America finally agreed to recognize that...
Prabhupāda: East Berlin.
Jagadīśa: Eastern Europe is under Russian dominance and should stay that way.
Prabhupāda: So the Eastern countries, they agree?
Prabhupāda: Ha. (break) ... putrakā yena śuddhyet sattva. Our existentional position should be purified. How? Tapo, by tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattva (SB 5.5.1). "And we are enjoying life. Why we should undergo tapasya?" And you are enjoying, but you are not enjoying; you are suffering. Even if you think you are enjoying, there are so many sufferings. That the foolish people, they do not know. Just like a healthy man, he thinks, "I am enjoying," but he does not see that even he is now healthy, he will be an old man, he will be attacked with disease, he will die, and still he thinks, "I am healthy." Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Therefore the intelligent man will see that "Where is my enjoyment if I am going to die? I don't want to die, but I am going to die." That is sure, as sure as anything. And still the rascal will think that "I am happy." He will become old man, he will be attacked with disease, and still he is thinking that he is happy. Apart from this, there are so many other sufferings, but he thinks that he is happy. And that happiness is centered around sex. That's all. Yan maithunadi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Their only happiness is sex. Therefore in the Western countries they are simply trying to increase the sex enjoyment. That's all. Is it not?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Equal rights. Make agreement. "Once you beget; once I shall." (laughs) Make this contract. Then it is equal right. If the woman has to give birth of a child and she has to suffer all the pains thereof, then where is the equal right? Where is equal right? Nature has said, "You must suffer." The husband, the so-called husband, will give birth, er, will utilize you for sex satisfaction, and you will be pregnant, and he will go away and you will suffer the whole life to maintain the child, welfare—"Give me some money"—or this or that. Where is equal right? He is free. He has gone away. Huh? This is general experience in the Western countries.
Brahmānanda: "Unwed mothers."
Prabhupāda: Yes. And she cannot also check that "I shall not become mother." For sex appetite she will agree, and the man will go away and she will suffer. Is that civilization?
Brahmānanda: Each year there are over one million abortions.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Brahmānanda: In America there are over one million abortions.
Prabhupāda: And they are advanced. They are proud of their being advanced. And they will not suffer? So we are trying to save the whole human society from rascaldom. That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You see? This is nīm tree. There is many nīm trees. If they kindly accept and follow this movement they will be happy. Otherwise they are doomed. Let them suffer. What can I do? Thorough overhauling.
Kartikeya: The wrong example is given.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). The leaders are rascals, therefore they are rascals. The father is rascal; the son is rascal. Therefore Bhāgavata says that "If you are a rascal, don't become a father." Pit na sa syāt, na mocayed ya samupeta-mṛtyum. "If you are a rascal, don't become a mother." Stop population. They have therefore invented, "Yes, we shall become 'bachelor father,' 'bachelor daddy,' " not actual father but "bachelor father." Here woman at least think nowadays that she must have a husband. In Western countries they don't think. "No, there is no need of husband." Am I right?
Girirāja: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They don't think there is need of husband. Eh? But they feel. That I know. I have seen one girl. She saw another friend, "Oh, she has got a husband," whispering. So I can understand that everyone aspires after husband, but there is no hope. Hopelessness. This is the position. Every woman wants a good husband, good home, good children, little ornaments, nice food. That is the ambition of every woman, but they are hopeless. Although they are well qualified, European, American girls, they are hopeless, not to get any husband, not to get any home. This is their position. I have studied thoroughly. Is it not?
Girirāja: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...mandāḥ, all bad men. Mandā sumanda-matayaḥ. And if he is supposed to be a good man, he will manufacture some mata, manda-mata, not approved by the śāstras. This is going on. They will not hear Kṛṣṇa. They will give quotation from Brahma-kumārī. This is the greatest defect of modern civilization, that they won't accept real authority. They will create some authority. Or rascal, he becomes authority. Especially in India, this is the drawback. In the Western countries they do not know much about this. Therefore they accept what I say. But here they bring so many. So such an important man, he is bringing authority, Brahma-kumārī, a house of prostitution. If he is bringing their quotation as authority, then what to speak of others? (break) Just like that Christian convent house. They supply woman to rich men, and they supply money. That's all. This is Brahma-kumārī. Rich man, the same disease is there—yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukha hi tuccham. So if they get facility for some maithuna, they will give you money. (Hindi) ...prostitute, for convent house. Hm? Brahmānanda? Convent house? What is that convent house? It is not prostitution? That's all.
Prabhupāda: Hindi. (Hindi) You read it thoroughly and you explain it either in English or Hindi, as you think befitting to your friends. So we have got so many literatures in French language. We are also asking some men from Europe. That will create some impression. Yes. White elephant. (laughter) Dancing. Everyone will purchase ticket. Yes. (Hindi) Bring some white elephant. So literature is there. But one thing is that you must be placed in sadācāra, well behaved. So you have to sacrifice, especially your long hair. And if you sacrifice your hair, we can export it and get some money. (laughter) Because in Western countries they want these hairs to make wigs. Yes. So just... (Hindi) As they have been trained up to rise early in the morning, this will give you spiritual strength. If you simply becomes a gramophone speaker, then it will not be effective. Gramophone or tape record speaker, that will not be. You must be live speaker. Your living condition should be spiritually, what is called, surcharged. So that means you must be trained up how to rise early in the morning, take your bath, cleanse yourself, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Then you will be spiritually strong. When you are spiritually strong, if you speak something on spiritual subject matter, then it will be effective. Otherwise it will be just like tape record playing. So this is required. And you should... You are asking something?
Guest (1): No.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if... Sex urge... But as soon as you become old, you have got the sex urge, but you cannot enjoy. Why? You have got the instrument, you have got the body, and still, if you go to a young woman, then she will kick on your face: "Rascal, you have come to enjoy?" (laughter) Why? Why the young man kicks on your face? And you pay. Although you pay, still she kicks. So where is your sex enjoyment? Ayur gatiḥ kiṁ yuvatī nārī: "When your age is finished, what is the use of keeping one young woman?" You cannot enjoy. She will enjoy with others, and you will have to pay for that. This is going on. There is one Mr. (name withheld) in... You have heard the name of (name withheld)? That is (name withheld), his elder brother. He has got three, four wives, and for each wife he has got a big, big establishment. And the wife is enjoying with the secretaries and having dozens of children. And he knows that, but still he is keeping that establishment. Everyone knows that. He's old man. He is of my age, and four, five wives, and he is going to one wife's house in the morning, another wife's house in the noon, another wife's house... In this way he is paying for that, ten thousand, fifteen thousand rupees per establishment, and the wife is enjoying with others. And he is accumulating money to give to the children. He is anxious that "After all, they are my children. They must get at least five lakhs of rupees." This is his business. But it is not his children. This is going on, a practical, that rascal still working his brain how to get money to provide so many wives with comfort of life. That's all. There are many. (name withheld) is only one. In the Western countries there are many. Many. At night they go to the nightclub, pay for this. But still, he has no other information of enjoyment. He knows, "This is the only enjoyment, so let me come and see at this." This is going on. Mūḍha. He does not think, "Where is my enjoyment?"
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is University of Minnesota. This is a book review of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. He says, "I know of no better introduction to the vast literature of kṛṣṇa-bhakti than Swami Bhaktivedanta's paraphrase of Canto Ten of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Purāṇa. Translators inevitably have to commute between felicity and fidelity. In this edition, Bhaktivedanta resolves the dilemma by presenting a purport of each chapter which is both readable and substantial." No one can argue with the authority of these literatures, it's a fact, because Śrīla Prabhupāda has not manufactured anything from his own mind. It's simply being presented, the Vedic literatures, as they are, in such a way that we in the Western countries, we can understand very clearly without any hesitation what is being said in each verse and each chapter. In other words, Prabhupāda is not presenting in order to confuse or to juggle words, but to actually give people understanding. That is why it's been accepted so readily. We have many such literatures.
Prof. Olivier: Yes, it's... That other letter you showed me, the first one, is a...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's from Utaḥ State University.
Prof. Olivier: Yeah, sociology. It's a good letter. It would be a good letter to have a copy.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I can make copies of some of these letters and bring them by. Will you be in your office on Monday?
Prof. Olivier: I have a meeting in the morning, but my secretary...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I can leave it there. And all of these books are readily available here in stock.
Prof. Olivier: Are they?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We have thousands and thousands of books here in South Africa.
Prof. Olivier: In South Africa?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Very, very reasonable prices.
Prabhupāda: Your Sanskrit professor, he has seen?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The Sanskrit professor has noted that he would like to take the whole set of books.
Prof. Olivier: What's his name, this professor, Zanenberg?(?)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of the devotees spoke to him, but he wanted that I should go back and see him.
Prabhupāda: Where he is? Call him, that devotee who saw him.
Prabhupāda: All right, India. Then?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then the point is that they criticize that how we can preach such a civilization to the Western countries if even it's not working in India today. Although theoretically it's perfect, practically it's not working.
Prabhupāda: No. Practically, because you have preached your culture in India; therefore they have lost their own culture. The Western, the Britishers were for two hundred years and they preached. Their policy was to kill the Indian culture. Because that report of Lord McCauley, after studying Indian situation, the report was to the Parliament that "If you keep India as Indian, then you will not be able to rule over them," so therefore there was regular policy to kill Indian civilization. And because they were on the governing power, they could do it. Therefore India lost its own culture and victimized by the Western culture. This is the position. Just they are learning how to eat meat, how to drink wine, how to dress them with coat and pant, how to go to the hotel, illicit sex—these things are…
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Imported.
Prabhupāda: ...is generated from dog originally.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The disease?
Prabhupāda: Syphilis. In Ayur-Vedic it is called phairanga, means this disease is imported from Western countries. Every dog has syphilis, and they contaminate the woman, and that is distributed to man. According to Vedic civilization, dog is untouchable. Now in India also, to keep a dog is aristocracy. Yes. Especially the tail cut. Now half-cut tail, that is aristocratic dog. Now they are making dog show in New Delhi. (break) Adjust. Kleṣada asa deha. Material body means different ways of giving trouble. I have got one trouble. He has got one trouble. He has got another trouble. He has got another. But nobody is coming to the senses that it is troublesome. And troublesome, at the same time you'll not be allowed to continue. It has to be ended. Then another change of body, and what kind of body you are going to get? That you do not know.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Western countries, people are taught that if there is some difficulty they should not try to accept it. They should try to change the situation.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are called mūḍhas, all rascals. Na mā duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ. How you can understand that this man is mischievously meritorious? How you can understand? Duṣkṛtina means mischievously meritorious. This man is meritorious, but he is using his merit for mischievous activities. That is called duṣkṛtina. So how you can understand this man is mischievously meritorious? You can say, "How is that? A man is meritorious and at the same time he is mischievous?" There're so many organization, especially in Western country, big, big rogues' organization simply for cheating, simply for smuggling. They have got merit. Otherwise how they have organized such big, big organization? But what for? All mischievous activities, harassing government, harassing people. The merit is being used. There are many organizations in the Western country. Is it not?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's true.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Many, many. All these realty business. Realty business, you know?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Realty.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Formerly the Manchester people were exploiting Indians. Now the Ahmedabad people, they have learned how to exploit. That's all. And government is satisfied because they pay tax. "Never mind. The workers may suffer, go on suffering." This is going on. And they have lost their own culture, and they have been taught how to drink, how to eat meat. This is... (break) ...fact is that Indians cannot work so hard as the Western people can work. The climate does not allow. India's climate is good for peaceful living, less work, and brain engaged in spiritual advancement. That is India's gift. They are not meant for hard work. Hard work is not required for anyone. This is animal civilization, to work very hard. Then what is the difference between animal and man? A man has to work so hard like animal; then what is the difference? Here in the Western countries their climate is also suitable, and they are taught to work very hard like animals. And they do that. Therefore materially they become so-called prosperous for committing suicide. Is it not?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is true.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that if one wants to increase the material standard of living, then they should increase also sex life. And this is what they are doing in India today.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Without sex life one cannot be materially enthusiastic. And if you stop sex life, then you become spiritually advanced. This is the secret. If you stop sex life, then you become spiritually advanced, and if you indulge in sex life, then you will be materially enthusiastic. That is the difference between Western and Eastern culture. The whole Eastern culture is based on how to stop sex life, and here in the Western countries, how to increase sex life. They are eating meat, eggs, drinking wine. These things will enthuse sex life. And as soon as you get very satisfactory sex life, you become enthused to work hard. Therefore karmīs, marriage is necessary, because without sex life they cannot work. And for jñānīs, yogis, bhaktas, sex life prohibited. Actually they do not know the science of life, this Western civilization. Their life means this body. Their life means this body. That means they do not know what is life. And as soon as the life is gone, the body is there—they cannot explain. This is their ignorance. Why the life is stopped? And they are very proud of advancement. And bring in life again. That they cannot do. That means the whole basic principle is ignorance. Mūḍha nābhijānāti. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). Eh? Then?
Harikeśa: Rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caivam.
Harikeśa: It makes it more difficult.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes they hit a golf ball, Śrīla Prabhupāda, two hundred yards, and it goes into the hole.
Prabhupāda: The same thing. In order to feel the happiness of playing, he has to go in this way. It is unhappiness.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Such standard of religion the Western countries are not used to.
Prabhupāda: Where is religion in Western countries? There is no religion. All bogus thing. Religion means to surrender to God. Then where is God, and whom to surrender? They surrender to senses, that's all. So unless there is God, what is the meaning of religion? That is not religion. They have created something, civilized human society. There must be some religion. Just like aristocracy means he must have a good dog, that's all. There is no religion in the world except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All bogus.
Harikeśa: What is the Pope doing, then? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: He's another big bogus man. The Pope's assistant died in the prostitute's house.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk down this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) ...parents who would give up their children to gurukula, they would never see them for about ten years?
Prabhupāda: Never see. Ten years? Twenty-five years. They may go and see, give some gifts to the guru.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Western countries they criticize our gurukula that "This is inhuman, people sending their children away at such an early age, not seeing them."
Prabhupāda: And to kill, that is very human. Rascal. Kick them upon their face. You rascal, you are talking of morality, rascal, you go to hell. Your place is hell. "Devil citing scripture." You are not... You are so shameless that you do not be ashamed to speak like that. You are so shameless. Your civilization is so shameless. You are killing child in the womb, and you are talking "inhumanity." Just see. We have to deal with such fools and rascals.
Dr. Patel: Because their main hypothesis is... That is near the mind. (?)
Prabhupāda: Yes. So evaṁ manasa-gocaraḥ. You cannot have it. śruti-pramāṇam. You have to hear from the authority. Jaya. So if you want to waste your time in that way, you can do that. And next birth, you become a dog. That's all. This human life you waste in this way, dog's obstinacy; Kṛṣṇa will say, "All right, come on. You become a dog." Human life... Even Cānakya Paṇḍita says, a??cyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi na labhyaḥ svarṇa-koṭibhiḥ: "Even one part of your duration of life, one moment, you cannot get it back again in exchange of millions of golden coins." Svarṇa-kotibhiḥ. Sa cet nirarthakam: "If you waste that time unnecessarily, then you do not know what you are losing, even from material point of view." This is Vedic civilization, not to waste a single moment of life for useless attempt. That is Vedic civilization. Every moment should be utilized. Especially for the human being, it's so valuable. And they are finding out sporting, swimming and surfing—simply all programs of wasting time, especially in the Western countries. How much they have invented, I see only and laugh. The elderly men of your age, of course, maybe my age also, they are swimming and surfing. How they have invented means of...
Brahmānanda: Fishing also.
Prabhupāda: So, you can try one or two. If you find that they're alright...
Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. Doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) We can purchase some of those fields but where is the man? We can grow our own food. (slight pause) They have now learned from the Western countries to run! (jogger goes past) (laughs) And without caring for the field. Hm? Field working is very troublesome and this running is very easy.
Hari-śauri: Running out of breath. (pause) Meets some one on the road.
Prabhupāda: Ha?
Man: (mumbling) ...Only Māyāpur, eh, Caitanya Chandrodaya Mandir temple is ahh, undoubtedly, eh, ahh Hari.. ahh, eheḥ, ahh, (mumbles something more)
Prabhupāda: Scientists say, is there any living entity in the sun globe?
Akṣayānanda Swami: No. They don't, they say there's nothing.
Prabhupāda: Simply everything here?
Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. That's what they say.
Dr. Patel: All the lower, all this knowledge is no doubt traigunya. Superior knowledge. But spiritual knowledge is beyond the three guṇas.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). We have to transcend all these guṇas, and that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now they are realizing even in Western countries...
Dr. Patel: But they will realize (Hindi). They will learn it by...
Prabhupāda: (Hindi, makes Patel laugh) Kṛṣṇa juta maro ha mam kavi ne jan...
Dr. Patel: (laughing heartily) ...you are very hard...
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of vihāya? (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: We tolerate everything. (more Hindi) The whole civilization, the modern civilization, is wholly at fault. Unfortunate. And that is the schools we are sending our children to, and these are the public schools.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi about the Gurukula in Vṛndāvana)
Dr. Patel: They're getting (indistinct) of knowledge, after all they will (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: We are opening gurukula, but who will give? A gentleman will not give. Hare Kṛṣṇa!
Prabhupāda: Why temples? Even your big, big political leaders, they distort. Why do you blame the temples?
Dr. Patel: But Christianity is distorted by the...
Prabhupāda: Everyone. That is going on.
Dr. Patel: ...those popes. However, Christ taught bhāgavata-dharma, absolute bhāgavata-dharma. It is this creation of the church, really to my mind, that the Christ is forgotten by the Western countries.
Prabhupāda: And who is remembering your Kṛṣṇa in this country?
Dr. Patel: There are a few people. I, we are not that...
Prabhupāda: In Bombay, there are so many roads, "Vivekananda road." But there is no Kṛṣṇa Road. Hm? Who is remembering Kṛṣṇa?
Dr. Patel: There is Kṛṣṇa Art Gallery, in market. Kṛṣṇa Art Gallery. (laughing) (Hindi conversation with man about Kṛṣṇa's name) Ajāmila spoke "Nārāyaṇa." You may speak in the name of your father, that his called name. Heḥ?
Prabhupāda: That is a chance; that is not...
Man: Now the Air India's plane, they have kṛṣṇa-līlā pictures.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Man: In Air India plane.
Harikeśa: 'Cause all philosophy is based on the proposition that "I am this body."
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Harikeśa: Or "I am this..."
Prabhupāda: Then he remains the same animal, cats and dogs. There is no advancement. Therefore you see despite so many rascal philosophers in the Western countries, they simply fight and bomb and cheat and politics, diplomacy. The same—on the surface of the coconut, not inside. So you have to prove that "All of you are rascals. You do not know where to get pleasure." They're missing that point. All rascals, they're putting new philosophy, thesis. So what is the value of that thesis? He does not know. It requires expert. Just like somebody has told: "In this land, there is gold." So somebody's digging here, somebody's digging there, somebody's digging there. And they are, do not find gold, and struggling. But one expert, what is called, soil expert?
Harikeśa: Geologist.
Prabhupāda: Geologist. No, geologist and soil ex..., soil expert.
| Page Title: | Western countries (Conversations 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 17 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=153, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 153 |