Prabhupāda: First thing is that calculation of Candra, moon planet, there are different views. Different scientists, they have different views. It is not a standard. They have not agreed to the... Somebody says something, somebody says another thing. Speculation. That's all. But that idea, that it is very low in temperature, that is mentioned in Bhāgavata. You cannot live in the water. You have to qualify yourself. (Sound of ducks). Just see. Their body is made just suitable for the water. So you have to qualify yourself. That is... Just like, in the spiritual sky they can live only spiritual body, and material body cannot live there. Material body is not allowed there. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ (BG 14.18). Those who are too much passionate, they are meant to live in this planet. This planetary system, status. There are many other planets like this world. So they are allowed to live here. Here all living entities, they are very much passionate. And adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ. And there are other planets, they are dark, dark planets, below this earthly planet. And the animals, they are in darkness. Although they're on this park, but they do not know where they are, darkness. Their knowledge is not developed. This is the result of the modes of ignorance. And those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are neither in darkness, nor in passion, nor in goodness. They are transcendental. So if one cultivates Kṛṣṇa consciousness nicely, he is at once promoted to the Kṛṣṇaloka. That is wanted. You are all chanting sixteen rounds? No? (laughs)
View (Conversations 1968 - 1973)
Expressions researched:
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Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Of the Vedic literature.
Hayagrīva: V-e-d-i-c.
Reporter: Oh, on Vedic literature.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We don't talk anything which is not authorized by the Vedic literature. That is our process.
Reporter: So let me see if I can summarize correctly your views on this, that it would be impossible for human beings to land on the moon planet?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: I wonder if you could explain how it would be impossible, to what extent. I mean whether...
Prabhupāda: The same example as I have already given, that if you want to reside in ocean water, is it possible? If you want to construct a city like New York in the ocean, is it possible?
Reporter: No, but what if they had resided in the ocean or on the ocean for a short period...
Prabhupāda: Anywhere. Any, in the ocean or on the ocean, you cannot build up a city like Los Angeles or New York. That is impossible. So even in your presence, in different atmosphere, you cannot go and live. So similarly, the moon planet is completely different atmosphere. How you can live and go?
Reporter: But, of course, they're not going there to build a city, but they're only going there to take some rock samples, do some experiments, and then leave.
Reporter: That part is clear, but not if other questions are asked.
Prabhupāda: Other questions you may ask. Other, that is future hope. That is not a fact. You are trusting in future that with this spacesuit you will be able to enter there. That you are believing. But similarly, I have got my belief from the authoritative scripture that you cannot.
Reporter: Well, all I know is what they plan to do and what they've done so far. So in view of what they hope to do, that's...
Prabhupāda: Well, that hoping... That hoping also, from practical point of view... Just like the other day the information was they were sixty miles off from the moon planet and still they could not enter. I do not know what kind of statement it is. If you go to some place just sixty miles off from that place and you are trying for so many years, you should be inquisitive. "Oh, let me go there sixty miles further. Let me see."
Reporter: Well it's like you walk near a theater and you don't have a ticket. You might be able to walk around the theater...
Prabhupāda: Then you come to my conclusion that your ticket is insufficient. You cannot enter there. Then you support my statement. Then you support me, that you cannot enter there.
Reporter: Then you support me.
Prabhupāda: Why? I don't support you. I say that you cannot enter. You are supporting me. You say that I have no ticket, therefore I could not enter.
Reporter: And these astronauts did not have the ticket...
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes, all, all circumstances, but it is the question of my appreciation, or my realization. That will depend on my purity. Otherwise this Kṛṣṇa sound and Kṛṣṇa, non-different. Therefore if we vibrate sound Kṛṣṇa, then I am immediately in contact with Kṛṣṇa, and if Kṛṣṇa is whole spirit, then immediately I become spiritualized. Just like if you touch electricity, immediately you're electrified. And the more you become electrified, more you become Kṛṣṇized. Kṛṣṇized. So when you are fully Kṛṣṇized, then you are in the Kṛṣṇa platform. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9), then fully Kṛṣṇized, no more comes back to this material existence. He remains with Kṛṣṇa. The impersonalists shall say merging. That is less intelligence. Merging does not mean losing individuality. Just like a green bird enters a green tree; it appears merging, but the bird has not lost his individuality. There is individuality. Similarly Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter, no, Second Chapter that I, you, adyam(?), I and all these people who have assembled; it is not that they did not exist previously neither it is that they'll not exist. That means I, you, and all these persons, they were individual in the past. At the present we see it practically, and in future they'll remain individuals. And individually we are that, in our present existence, everyone of us individual. You have got your individual views, I have got my individual views. We agree on common platform, that is different thing, but we are individual. That is our nature. Therefore there is disagreement sometimes. So the individuality is never lost. But our proposition, bhakti-mārga, is to keep individuality and agree with you.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we are seeking your help.
Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. Well I haven't found a way, I still just stay chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Therefore why I have come to you? That is also my view. I have come to America with this view, that America is on the summit of material civilization. They are not poverty-stricken. You see? And they are seeking after something. Therefore I have come, that "You take this, you'll be happy." That is my mission. And if the Americans take, then all other countries will take because America is leading at the present moment. So persons, exalted persons like you, you try to understand. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, anyone can chant. Even the child is trying. There is no difficulty. And so far what is our modes of living?
Allen Ginsberg: Mere chanting without the practice of a philosophy and a daily ritual...
Prabhupāda: Philosophy is there. We are teaching Bhagavad-gītā. We are talking on Bhāgavata philosophy, we are talking on Caitanya's philosophy.
Allen Ginsberg: And you have a daily ritual.
Prabhupāda: We are distributing papers. And... Everything is there.
Allen Ginsberg: Okay. So my question then, as it was originally when you first asked me, what do I think...
Prabhupāda: There is no enemy of a dumb. Bhuvar śatru nyāya.
Allen Ginsberg: So I just kept my mouth closed and got down on my knees and touched their feet. So they all thought that I was crazy, and so they kept away from me. (laughter) So I got inside.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. So you had a nice view of Jagannātha?
Allen Ginsberg: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Allen Ginsberg: It was very beautiful. I was there about..., with Peter also, about a week, a week there.
Prabhupāda: So you saw once or several times?
Allen Ginsberg: One time. I was afraid to go in and out many times. I figured I got away with it once, and I didn't want to...
Prabhupāda: But that Aquarian Gospel said that Lord Jesus Christ lived in the temple.
Guest (1): (Bengali) Jesus Christ was there.
Prabhupāda: He was thick and thin with the priest. One priest was very friendly.
Guest (1): Vidyāpati.
Prabhupāda: And he was discussing philosophical talks with them.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No, that is also not possible. And therefore we are training people to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. And when the Kṛṣṇa conscious people will elect Kṛṣṇa conscious leaders there will be peace and prosperity. And now, because the minority is Kṛṣṇa conscious, they cannot elect Kṛṣṇa conscious leaders and therefore havoc is being played.
Guest (4): Mahārāja, do you think the West is being Hinduized?
Prabhupāda: The "Hinduized" is a sectarian view. We are not...
Guest (4): I mean this, being brought up on sanātana culture.
Prabhupāda: Vedic ways. Yes. You can... The perfect word is Vedic civilization.
Guest (4): Vedic civilization.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is original civilization. Out of Vedic civilization there are so many outcome now, but if you go originally to the Vedic civilization, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find the word is vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). That means to follow the Vedic way of life means to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Guest (5): (unclear)
Prabhupāda: Yes, Vedic way means they are following principles, regulative principles.
Guest (5): So what principle?
Prabhupāda: That's nice proposal. Unless you find an enemy, how you can fight? So of course, we do not say... We Vaiṣṇavas do not say that there is no need of fighting. We never say. When there is need of fighting we must fight. Rather, somebody in New York, some Goldsmith, he was that, "Why Kṛṣṇa is advising Arjuna to fight, to become violent?" So somebody protests like that. But there is no meaning of protesting against the action of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is our view. So we Vaiṣṇavas, we are chanting. It does not mean that when there is need of fighting with avaiṣṇava we shall lack in strength. We can fight. One gentleman inquired from me that "Vaiṣṇavism makes one dull. He cannot act." And, "No. You have not seen a Vaiṣṇava." In the two fightings, great fighting, the Rāmāyaṇa and Mahābhārata, the hero was Hanuman and Arjuna, and they fought.
Guest (1): They fought.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And who can be better Vaiṣṇava than them?
Guest (1): Nobody.
Prabhupāda: So Vaiṣṇava does not mean he is dull. No.
Guest (1): No, that is well proved. If there is need...
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Thing is that whatever I have understood about Kṛṣṇa I haven't got to learn from you.
Guest (2): No, you don't have to learn from me.
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Guest (2): But what you have to learn...
Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not speaking my own views. I have got my ācāryas, my teachers, Rāmānujācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya. So it is all right. It is all right. I have got so many authorities. What authority you have got?
Guest (2): I am, myself, in my own senses...
Prabhupāda: Now, you are not authority.
Guest (2): I am not but my own...
Prabhupāda: I am following so many authorities. Then... Then there is no question.
Guest (2): I am only...
Prabhupāda: You are yourself authority. Now, if you say my views are not correct, I may be incorrect but I am following the predecessor. I am taking...
Guest (2): What is the difference there? Sir, I accept that.
Guest: There's one philosophical point I would like you to elucidate. I haven't been able to quite understand, certainly the dualistic, incomprehensible... the dualistic-nondualistic philosophy which sees at the same time Kṛṣṇa, as comprehending all of man, all of the world, everything, within the body, we might say, of Kṛṣṇa, And at the same time however, one sees the world as distinct from Kṛṣṇa, in other words, as māyā, and as illusion. And it is this, the dualistic, I would like to... If you could just explain to me the difference between the... I mean, how this fits in, the monistic or the idea of the unitary view that Kṛṣṇa is everything, all and in all. And then at the same time that the world, there is this world of illusion which is somehow distinct from Kṛṣṇa. Could you just explain this point to me?
Prabhupāda: This is very easy to understand. Just like you are recording my speeches in the tape recorder. When you play back it will speak just like I am speaking, but I am not there. Is it not fact?
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It will appear now I am speaking from beyond this world. Somebody's hearing, here somebody's speaking. Again, when the record player will play... (end)
Revatīnandana: Yes. And we can eat it after it's been offered to the Lord with love and devotion. This we call prasādam or Kṛṣṇa's mercy.
Prabhupāda: Actually, any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's, God's mercy. Just like grain. You cannot manufacture grain. It is by God's mercy you get it.
Guest (2): Have you any view on food that's been (indistinct) insects are killed, insecticide? Sort of thing?
Haṁsadūta: No, our point is to get the nicest foodstuff available and prepare it nicely for Kṛṣṇa, offer it to Kṛṣṇa, and then distribute it. That is the point.
Guest (2): I quite appreciate with respect the clause on alcohol. I'm puzzled, though, why anything on cigarettes. I'm puzzled about tea and coffee frankly.
Revatīnandana: Stimulants and depressants of all kinds, mild or strong, doesn't make any difference. You're taking a stimulant or a depressant, or a cigarette or a drink of coffee. It will agitate your mind with a chemical.
Guest (2): So what can you drink?
Revatīnandana: Milk, water, fruit juices, so many things.
Haṁsadūta: If you don't get cigarettes, you won't die. If you don't get cigarettes...
Guest (2): Oh no, no, I wouldn't question that.
Haṁsadūta: That's the point. They are unnecessary, artificial.
Prabhupāda: Just like these flowers. These flowers the devotees are bringing to their spiritual master, to God. They are not enjoying. Ordinary man, if he gets a flower, he'll put it in the pocket. How... You see? That is the difference of God consciousness. The flower is the same, but use is different.
Guest (2): What's your view, if I may ask, on, for emotion in, of, an ideal, a Christian ideal and so on through the media. Will you use television and radio to condemn things like racial intolerance and the Vietnam War? Do you believe that you should become involved in these things? Could you issue a statement and say that the movement condemns so and so? Do you believe getting into anything in the world spectrum to comment on things?
Revatīnandana: Do you follow the question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? His question is do we concern ourselves with particular problems in the world, there's the war in Vietnam, there's racial discrimination? Do we make statements to condemn this war or to condemn that discrimination?
Prabhupāda: No. Thing is that there are so many problems. Our proposition is, when you become God conscious, then all problems automatically solved. We don't take the problems. We take the... Just like disease. There are many symptoms. A man is suffering from a particular disease. He has a headache, he has this pain, this pain, that pain.
Sister Mary: You go down to the heart of the matter.
Devotee: To the root cause.
Sister Mary: They're only symptoms.
Prabhupāda: As soon as you are educated that God is one, Father is one, we are all sons, then the whole solution is made.
Journalist (1): Because there's no need for any one person to have any more than anybody else.
Prabhupāda: No. God has given everything. God has given everything, but if one party becoming demonically powerful, he occupies everything, the others suffer.
Journalist (1): Yes. But the difficulty is, and that's a very optimistic view of human nature.
Prabhupāda: That is civilization.
Journalist (1): But, no...
Prabhupāda: That is not optimist, that is proper civilization.
Journalist (1): Some people might say, who weren't perhaps as convinced as you...
Prabhupāda: Some people means the demons. We are creating demons. By our education, we are creating demons. That demons, they are being frustrated; they are now becoming hippies. Yes. That is the position. Because everyone wants to enjoy. So as soon as we cannot enjoy, there is some reaction. You see?
Journalist (1): He rejects.
Journalist (1): What is your view of predominant Western civilization, Sir?
Prabhupāda: This predominance is dwindling. Where is your British Empire gone?
Journalist (1): Yes, quite. In fact, I was asking you about...
Prabhupāda: So this is artificial. There was Roman Empire, there was Mogul Empire, there was Carthagian Empire, there was Egyptian Empire and Greece and so on. They come and go. And there is a song by a Vaiṣṇava, kata caturānana, māri māri yāvatā.(?) There are so many Brahmās come also and they died. So this kind of empirical imperial, onslaught, they will come and stay for hundred or two hundred, and create some problems. There were...Just like there was Napoleon, there was this and that. So they will come and go. They will come and go, create some disturbances and go. Nobody will stay.
Journalist (1): Yes, but they don't seem to be improving society. When they do come and go, society doesn't seem to improve on the way.
Prabhupāda: If you cannot... if you remain demon then there is no question of improvement. You must be prepared to become... There are two classes of men. One is called god, or demigod; another is called demon. If you continue your demonic civilization, there is no question of happiness. That Hitler will come and this will come, that will... They will fight for some time, create some disturbance and go away. Another Hitler will come, another will come, another will come. This way.
Journalist (1): There will always be unhappiness amongst...
Mensa Member: No, they don't. One (indistinct) scientific truth is this works.
Dr. Weir: I would like to put my own view, is that I believe very much in the Christian ethics, and I could believe in Kṛṣṇa ethics, or, if I might say. But I could also believe in that without the need to believe in Kṛṣṇa or God. Now whether that's a delusion on my part, and I really do believe deep down inside me, and I don't know...
Śyāmasundara: The idea is how to transform that belief into practical action. That's the art.
Dr. Weir: But some people need the bridge of the Godhead to achieve it, other people do it abstractly.
Śyāmasundara: Today we went to a service, a Christian service, the first one I've been to in years, and in the back of the church we walked in there were eleven old ladies sitting in the pews. And outside I could hear the roar of traffic and people. I began to think how much the Christian church has lost track or lost pull(?) of this ability to be able to guide people, the practical application of moral and spiritual principles, so much so that no one was interested to come in...
Prabhupāda: One priest in Boston, he issued leaflet regretting that these boys, he saw our students. He appreciated that these boys are so much after God and they're our boys. We could not give them. Actually the same boy was, one year or two years ago, he was not going to church, was not interested in God consciousness, but now this same boy is mad after God. And he's twenty-four hours in God consciousness. They're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra twenty-four hours. How they have become so...
Prabhupāda: Oh. Rayananda(?), can you get that paper, Hindustan?
Guest: Quite surprising. He's quite a learned scholar.
Prabhupāda: The learned scholar, they have been described in Bhagavad-gītā, māyaya apahṛta-jñānā asurī-bhāvam āśritāḥ. Because they have taken this view that God is impersonal, He has no form, this is āsurī. Then māyaya apahṛta-jñānā. Therefore, however learned they may be, māyā takes away their knowledge. Māyaya apahṛta-jñānā asurī-bhāvam āśr... That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. (Hindi) The Absolute Truth, that is subjected to be imagined by me. I am a tiny soul. And if a learned sannyāsī says like that, how many thousands of people will believe in that, will be wrongly impressed? This paper will be read by thousands and millions. (Hindi) ...hodge-podge.
Guest: Another one, Bala Yogi, has made a statement that "I will call myself anybody but not Hindu"
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: "I will call myself anybody but not Hindu."
Prabhupāda: I will call...?
Guest (2): "Anybody but not Hindu."
Guest: He is not Hindu, he says.
Guest (2): Bala Yogesvara, some other saint. He said, "I am not Hindu."
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means swan-like, they should be like swans. Their behavior should be like swans. They should live in clean place, at refreshing place. So as soon as somebody will come to the temple, he will be... (aside) You have some papers I shall show?
Śyāmasundara: I just wanted to check and see if there's somebody here. It's Nanda-kumāra.
Prabhupāda: So keep this principle in view, that you have to become swan, not crows. They say that everyone, every religion is all the same. This is all nonsense. (indistinct) In Bhagavad-gītā there are different types of religion, sattvic, rajarsic, tamasic. And our this... If you take it as religion, this is transcendental. Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo (SB 1.2.6). Paraḥ means transcendental, it is not ordinary, aparaḥ. In aparaḥ dharma, the materialistic dharma, there are ritualistic ceremonies how to make one perfect for accepting transcendental religion. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is directly putting oneself in the transcendental. That is the special (indistinct). Caitanya Mahāprabhu... (aside) Why don't you close it? Caitanya-caritāmṛta says, kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it is to be supposed that you have finished all other types of religion. My Guru Maharaja used to cite one example that one's friend was sitting on the high-court judge's bench. So he was speaking to another, "Oh, that Panchu was playing with us naked. He is sitting on the high-court judge's bench. Oh, how he was playing with us naked, how he is seated in the high-court bench?" "Yes, I have seen, you have seen actually he is sitting." "Oh, then he must not be getting salary." He must not be getting salary. So this is the argument. Familiarity breeds contempt. So he cannot believe that he has become a high-court judge. He thinks that "I am a rascal fool and my friend, how he can become high-court judge? He must not be getting salary." But is that very good argument that the high-court judge is seated there without any salary?
Prabhupāda: Yes. And material pleasure means pleasure of senses. That's all. This is the difference. When you try simply to please Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual pleasure.
Bob: I had viewed this as... My thought of pleasing God was to do...
Prabhupāda: No, no, don't manufacture your ways of pleasing God. Don't manufacture. Suppose if I want to please you, then I shall ask you, "How can I serve you?" Not that I manufacture service. That is not pleasing you. Suppose if I want a glass of water. And if you manufacture that "Swamiji will be more pleased if I give him a glass of milk, hot milk," that will not please me. If you want to please me, then you should ask me, "How can I please you?" And what I order, if you do that, that will please me.
Bob: And pleasing Kṛṣṇa, then, is being a devotee of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: The devotee means who is always pleasing Kṛṣṇa. He has no other business. That is devotee.
Bob: Can you tell me some more about chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? I have for quite some time chanted, but never regularly, just a little bit here and there. I just got beads very recently. And once in a while I feel comfortable chanting, and once in a while not comfortable at all. And maybe I don't chant properly. I don't know.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everything has got process. You have to adopt the process.
Bob: The devotees tell me of the ecstasy they feel when chanting.
Pradyumna: "Chance." It's a noun and adjective. "1. The way things fall out. Fortune, undesigned occurrence, opportunity, possibility, probability. Especially in plural, as 'the chances are against him.' Absence of design or discoverable cause. Course of events regarded as a power, fate. 'By chance': as it falls or fell out; without design. 'On the chance': in view of the possibility. 'Take one's chance': let things go as they may. Consent to take what comes."
Prabhupāda: So it can be adjusted with the meanings of chance and necessity. I want something; that is my necessity. And it will come by chance? Or I have to endeavor for it, and then I get it? Shall I depend on chance? I have a necessity for something. So should I wait for the chance?
Śyāmasundara: We've always been taught, "No. You must work very hard toward..."
Prabhupāda: So where is the waiting for chance? There is plan. If I have to work, to get the thing, then it is plan.
Pradyumna: If they follow their philosophy to the conclusion, they would have to be completely dependent, if they followed the philosophy to the conclusion.
Prabhupāda: If the chance comes as soon as the necessity is there, then we have to admit immediately God.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. Oh.
Prabhupāda: They feel pleasure to remain as an urchin.
Sudāmā: As their father supplies them with money and motor car.
Pradyumna: He built this house, and this house had a very nice view over the whole place. But another man built another building here. And now the view is... Right next to, he built this building. That's why this apartment is vacant.
Śyāmasundara: No one will live here. The apartments are vacant.
Sudāmā: He's losing money.
Śyāmasundara: Someone has built in front of him.
Pradyumna: He had view over whole city. This was the biggest building, I think, and he said he had view everywhere. Now someone built one right up, right next to him.
Bhūrijana: In the United States, the most amazing thing is that everyone is envious. The general population is envious of the hippies because they all want to do that. The ones who are working so hard, they want to be the ones who are just getting fed and do nothing and enjoy sex. But then when the hippies have it, they say bad things about them.
Prabhupāda: What is that? I could not...
Bhūrijana: The advancement of civilization is leading to just sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the only way. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Brs. 1.2.234). By your service, Kṛṣṇa will automatically reveal Himself. He wants service; therefore He said, "Surrender unto Me." "Surrender unto Me," not stop all activities. "Surrender unto Me." What He will say, you do. That is surrender. Just like Arjuna surrendered. So surrender means that he had to fight. That is surrender. Not that "I surrender, I do nothing." That is not surrender. That is only negation. Doing nothing of the material things, that is negation. Take the positive view. That is doing always for Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: Eventually your mind will become so occupied, and every field of activity will become so occupied, that you will forget everything else, eventually.
Prabhupāda: Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ (Brs. 1.1.11). Zero, all everything zero, make it zero. Śūnyam. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Jñāna-karma means there is some aspiration of profit. Karmīs, they are trying to be elevated in the higher planetary system. And jñānīs, they are wanting to become one with the Supreme. So that is also demand. That means there is some desire. It is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167). But one has to become anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam—any desire, make it zero. Then what to do, I shall become dull and dumb? No. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ (CC Madhya 19.167), you have to work according..., favorably, as Kṛṣṇa desires. That's it. That is wanted, that is bhakti. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu, that is wanted. You have to simply abide by the orders of Kṛṣṇa or His representative, that's all. That is required.
Śyāmasundara: Then you become automatically mad after Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The more you practice, the more you become mad.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You have no right. Suppose I have written one book. So I have got some intention. So why should you interpret my intention with your intention? What right you have got? You have no right. If you want to speak something of yours, then you write another book. Why you are taking advantage of my book and misleading others? I want to speak to the public something, I have expressed my opinion in that way. But because it is popular, you are taking advantage of my book and expressing your views. How much cheating, how much cheater you are! Therefore he is suffering, Dr. Radhakrishnan. He has lost his brain. We went to see him, Dr. Radhakrishnan, when I was in Madras. You went?
Śyāmasundara: Yes, like a vegetable, with no comprehension.
Prabhupāda: Lost.
Śyāmasundara: At last he's become void.
Devotee (1): Yes. He surrendered to the void.
Prabhupāda: Simply sitting down like this. He cannot ask whether he is hungry or not. His daughter is always attending, giving him some food, then he is eating. Otherwise, he does not say. Lost everything. He has mentioned Bhagavad-gītā as a mental speculation, in his Indian Religion. So he is such a great offender, he must suffer. But it is good for him. Because he is a gentleman, therefore his offenses are being compensated in this life.
Devotee (1): So he hasn't got to pay next time.
Prabhupāda: Fifty?
Yadurāṇī: Fifty, nearly fifty, gāyatrī and both.
Devotee (7): Both, gāyatrī and...
Devotee (8): Śrīla Prabhupāda? We want to view the movies in this room.
Prabhupāda: Go ahead. How many beads?
Devotee: Twenty-seven. (indistinct)
Devotee (9): Śrīla Prabhupāda? You said you want to present more philosophy in Back to Godhead magazine. Does that mean that we should make it more and more sophisticated? Or does that mean that we should try to present the philosophy in the easiest way?
Prabhupāda: You should insert articles. It is reality. It is not speculation. Nothing, our activity, is speculation or imaginary. Everything is fact. We should present in that way. Either picture or philosophy, anything. They are all facts. People may not take it as something imagination. That argument will be there. Just like here there is a picture, Dakṣa is with a goat head. But they may not take it as imagination. That is possible. It is fact.
Devotee (9): So the..., our business is to present it in such a way that people will...
Prabhupāda: Yes, people will understand it is reality, not sentiment or fictitious. Because they have been instructed by rascals that all these Vedic literatures, they are allegories. Or, how do they call it?
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (2): (Indonesian) One thing Mr. (indistinct) would like to answer from you, that, according to different view, objective reply, the object of this (indistinct) life, the objective of our religion is to be prosperous in this world and hereafter.
Prabhupāda: No. This is (indistinct) Prosperous. That is also stated, how you can become prosperous. That...
Guest (2): The problems work like this...
Prabhupāda: No. That is also stated...
Guest (2): Whether this question also...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is there...
Guest (2): This what it is.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find this verse. (Aside:) Find out. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati. This is the śānti, prosperity. They are... Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supreme Enjoyer. I am the sole proprietor of everything." Sarva-loka-maheśvaram. Sarva-loka, not only of this planet, but other planets also. Loka. Loka means planet, sarva-lokam. So bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. "I am the best, I mean to say, well-wisher friend of everyone." Jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati. If one understands these three things only, that God is the Supreme Enjoyer. We are not enjoyer. But God is Enjoyer. That God is the Proprietor of everything. Not we are proprietor. We are subordinate. In the Vedas also, it is stated, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). The description of God is like that He's eternal amongst the eternals. We are also eternal, the living entities. And God is also eternal. Nityo nityānāṁ... cetana, He's the vital living force among all living forces. We are all living forces and He's the chief living force.
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: If someone looks at the Deity of Kṛṣṇa and thinks it's only stone or wood, for him it's still material?
Prabhupāda: That is his ignorance. How it can be material? The stone is also Kṛṣṇa's energy. Just like electricity energy is there everywhere. The electrician knows how to utilize it, how to take electricity. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, even in the stone. The devotees know how to utilize stone to appreciate Kṛṣṇa. The devotees know. The rascal, they do not know. Because the devotee has no other view than Kṛṣṇa. Why stone should be without Kṛṣṇa? Here is Kṛṣṇa. That is real oneness. And the Māyāvādī philosopher they say oneness, but divide. This is stone, this is not Kṛṣṇa. Why second? Why you bring another thing?
Devotee: Good and bad, evil and...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: Is it so for a Kṛṣṇa conscious man that Kṛṣṇa is as much in the stone as in the Deity?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Just as much?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not?
Paramahaṁsa: But we order mūrtis all the way from India?
Prabhupāda: Now we are talking of Bhagavad-gītā. Can you say any quotation?
Krishna Tiwari: No, I do not follow them by quotation, by quotation.
Prabhupāda: Then don't say śāstra. Don't say our śāstra. You don't believe in śāstra. You do not know śāstra. Therefore don't say our śāstra. You'll say Indian scientific point of views. Don't say your śāstra.
Devotee (1): Say what you have found through your scientific process. Tell us what knowledge is. Tell us what..., how things are working. What is the, what is the process of scientific...
Prabhupāda: How the nature, law of nature is being controlled? Where is your scientific...
Krishna Tiwari: I, I already agreed, and all scientists agree that they know nothing about it.
Prabhupāda: That's all. That you don't know.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is relative world.
Mr. Wadell: I agree, but I am using this in, as an example, not as an absolute description. I think my view—may I explain this—of the whole of which I am, as I say, I think, an imperfect part, a part which is trying to learn something which I am not even quite sure what it is that I am trying to learn...
Prabhupāda: No, no, this is... You are perfect gentleman, means that you say that "I am imperfect." That is nice. But our point is that from imperfect man, imperfect knowledge is received. We cannot expect perfect knowledge from imperfect man.
Mr. Wadell: No. But where does your perfect knowledge come from and how do you recognize it?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very important point, where to get the perfect knowledge. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Therefore the Vedas says, gurum eva abhigacchet: "You go to a guru." "Guru" means heavy, who knows better than you, or who knows perfect. That is injunction.
Mr. Wadell: But, you see, this is...
Prabhupāda: We have to find out, we have to find out who can give the perfect knowledge.
Mr. Wadell: How do you know that you know? May I ask this? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: First of all you say that God has given you the intellect. He can withdraw it also.
Mr. Wadell: Well, we say not, because...
Prabhupāda: Why not? If He has given, He can withdraw also.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, I don't... Well, we have a rather strange view of God...
Prabhupāda: No, you may have strange view. We are arguing. As soon as you say God has given you intellect, He can withdraw also your intellect.
Mr. Wadell: But you see, what we have also to explain—why all men are not good. Now, if God chose, He could force all men to be good, but that is not the way.
Prabhupāda: No, God has given you intellect to become good, but because you disobey God, you have become bad.
Mr. Wadell: But if God is all-powerful and He cared to use His power...
Prabhupāda: No, He does not interfere with your little independence.
Mr. Wadell: This is the point which you were trying to...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā God says that "You surrender unto Me." That means, "If you like, you surrender." God is not forcing, "you must." He is not forcing.
Mr. Wadell: Well, that's exactly what I meant. We are agreed. And...
Prabhupāda: Our..., this book, Nectar of Devotion, that is a study book in the Temple University, Philadelphia. Similarly, our Kṛṣṇa Book, and what other books? They are...? Especially Kṛṣṇa Book and Nectar of Devotion. Bhagavad-gītā also, As It Is. (pause) We consider Lord Buddha also as incarnation of God.
Buddhist Monk (1): Yes, I know that. Of course, on this there's a difference of view between the orthodox Buddhists and that thinking. Because during the earlier days of Buddhist preaching there were certain differences of opinion. And the brāhmaṇa sections fell into various categories. Some of them were not very friendly, and others accepted quite a few of his, their teachings. And a third section, led by people like Sarikuta (?) and Munkali (?), Sanmukhala (?), they became followers as well. And, of course, so many things have been incorporated, kāma, krodha, lobha, kleśa, abhimāna. They are very similar to the teachings of the Buddha, and they are very progressive. Because lobha, lobha, lobha, lobha is at the root of our problems. (Sanskrit or Pali:) Tanhaya jayate soko, tanhaya jayate bhayak, tanhaya vipra mukta syat, nati soko ato bhayat. "Greed is the cause of suffering, greed is the cause of fear. Remove this greed: where is the suffering? Where is the fear?" And, of course, being tolerant and understanding, man being a bundle of habits and customs, we cannot eradicate all grief overnight. But certainly we can start reducing this greed. Reduce and reduce. And then that's the only way to purify the mind. And then ought show such a society where greed has been reduced will be relatively a peaceful society. Simple living, high thinking and high practice. That's the cornerstone of our philosophies. Multiplication of so many (indistinct), colonational output, flying to the moon and not going into one's mind, and producing these things and calling them (indistinct). What is...
Prabhupāda: At least, we have surpassed that stage. If we have not advanced in any other way, (laughter) at least we have advanced in this respect. We don't consider on the bodily concept of life. What do you think?
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is our qualification. Yes.
David Lawrence: Unfortunately, as we find, the youngsters that, certainly that I teach, have got such materialistic views of their...
Prabhupāda: If you keep the students as English boys or American boys, then it will be difficult. Then the, the cultural question will come up.
David Lawrence: Yes, yes. We try to bring in as much... In fact, now we have a new course... This is the sort of thing that's happening. (Break) ...the Jewish-Christian scriptures which do not, you know, just don't lend themselves in any way to the right sort of feelings being created and the right sort of experience being created. We found that this year's course-it's the first year-has been tremendously helpful. We brought the boys... I can't think anybody was here, but we brought the boys up to the London temple, and...
Prabhupāda: Here?
Prabhupāda: So God is acting within the heart of everyone. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ (BG 15.15).
Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes. That's what I certainly believe.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Sir Alistair Hardy: I certainly believe that. Oh, I think we're very close really, in our views of God, except that I'm concentrating on studying the working of God in the people of today. You are studying the message of God given by Kṛṣṇa in the... And I'm trying to show they are the same, the same view as that revealed by Jesus and by other great...
Prabhupāda: No... When we speak of Veda, Veda means knowledge. So knowledge means knowledge of God. Any scripture that gives knowledge of God, that is Vedas. Don't think that Vedas means that only the Sāma, Yajuḥ, Atharva. Those who are following the principles to give knowledge about God, that is Veda. Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda vido jñāne. Vid-dhātu is called veda, vetti. Jñāne when there is question of knowledge, these three forms are used: vetti, veda, vido, jñāne. Vinte vid vicaraṇe vidyate vid saptāyāṁ labhe vindati vindate. (?) This is the vid-dhātu description. So vid-dhātu means to know. So ultimate knowledge is to know God. That is real knowledge. Vedaiś ca sarvaiḥ. Sarvaiḥ, all kinds of Vedas. All kinds, sarvaiḥ. So Bible can be taken as Vedas because it is trying to give knowledge about God, maybe for a certain class of men. That is another thing. But the subject matter is how to know God. So that can be taken as also, as Vedas. Because ultimate knowledge is how to know God. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). So we accept Bible also as Vedas, but we simply say that they misinterpret the Biblical commandments. The Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill," and the Christian people are killing, maintaining slaughterhouse. What is this? This is my question. How they'll understand God if they are so much implicated in sinful activities? According to Vedas, there are four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, unnecessary killing of animals, intoxication and gambling. Yatra pāpaś catur-vidhaḥ. So God is purest. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). How one can approach God if he leads a sinful life? That is our propagation. You give up this sinful life. Then you'll be able to understand God. You follow Christianity or Mohammedanism or Buddhism. It doesn't matter. You give up this sinful life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they were feeling the... Actually, in India... In our childhood, we know. Every Indian felt very secure. They never expected that Britishers will go. They were so sympathetic. And now they... This is the pulse felt by that statistics officer. They are not very much satisfied with the present system of government. British administration was very much appreciated by the Indians. Even Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura appreciated. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, he has written in something, somewhere, that "The Britishers also very nice because they don't interfere with the religious affairs." So as soon as they changed their views and tried to divide the Hindus and Muslims, the British Empire lost. According to Queen's declaration, the Britishers pledged that "They will not interfere with your religious affairs." Later on, for political purposes, when they interfered with this Hindu-Muslim question, then the British Empire lost.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. But the people who rule India now have a western education mostly. The Indians who...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Perverted, converted. Just like Nehru. Nehru was western-educated. He was educated in London. But he hated everything Indian.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That was the res... Formerly, in our childhood we saw that any gentleman coming here in London and goes back to India, he no more mixes with the Indian soil. He... They were called "England-returned." So they made their own society. Then our Ram Mohan Raya, he formed a Brahmo Society. And so many things changed. Again, they are now topsy-turvied. So actually, India's position is that they have lost their own culture, and they could not assimilate the western culture. But in the western countries, if they accept this Vedic process of civilization, then they will again take it.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: The Greeks, like Indo-China, have a great past, and this is quite a difficulty for them. They're rather overshadowed by their own past. They don't quite know how to deal with it. I am writing about that.
Prabhupāda: What is your view about connection of the old Greeks with India?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: About the Greeks in India?
Prabhupāda: Greek, Greek people and Indian.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: For several centuries they had a very important part in Indian history. Very important.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: A number of them changed their religion and adopted Indian religion, didn't they. Yes.
Prabhupāda: No, they... So far our Mahābhārata is concerned, we understand that the Greek people came from India.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Originally.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: There's that famous... (break)
Prabhupāda: Pakistan is also now divided.
Prabhupāda: And Java. Java, they are Hindus. Still. In Indonesia also, there are many Hindus. They have got their Vedic way of worship. They accept Viṣṇu.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You were with me in Indonesia?
Devotee: No.
Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is your view of the future, the history, the future history?
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is there, described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The, the governmental power will go to the rascals and thieves, rogues. And their only business will be how to exploit the people. So one side, by not sufficient rain, there will be scarcity of foodstuff, and one side, the government will tax like anything. In this way, people will be so much harassed that they will give up their hearth and home and go to the forest.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: This will be done in Kali-yuga. And gradually, there will be no supply of grains. Especially rice, wheat, sugar, milk, these things will be finished. So people will be obliged to take flesh. These are all stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Śyāmasundara: In that case, is there any hope in a movement like ours to rectify the situation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If they take to Kṛṣṇa co... That is also stated, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Kīrtanād, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can become free from all these calamities and go back to home, back to Godhead. Only Kṛṣṇa conscious people will be free from all these calamities. Others will have to suffer.
Śyāmasundara: So societies in general will not improve, but more people...
Śyāmasundara: Does this correspond, Mr. Toynbee, with your view of the future history?
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the future history. You can predict in your writings. Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: With more people in politics in India, are they able to keep the Vedic ideal? Or...?
Prabhupāda: No, no. They have given up.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No.
Prabhupāda: The politicians, they (say that) "These books are useless. Throw them in the water." They say like that publicly. They are not interested. Rather, this movement, as I have now began with my disciples, European, American boys, they're... They are not very satisfied, the present politicians. They are not very satisfied. They don't want. Everywhere this, more or less the same mentality, but it is our duty on behalf of Kṛṣṇa to push on this movement. So we are doing, and we are getting response. It is not without response. It will increase. That is also stated, that for ten thousand years Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will increase. Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Ten thousand years.
Prabhupāda: Within ten thousand years, if they become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then life is successful. After ten thousand years, the gloomy picture of Kali-yuga will come. Still there is time. Ten thousand years is not small period. So we have passed five thousand years. So still ten thousand. We have got to the fifteen thousand years. Kali-yuga's duration of life is four hundred thousand, four hundred and twenty-seven thousand. Char-lakh murti saja. (?) Yes.
Prabhupāda: No, everything will be all right. Because the man on the head is perfectly, he'll manage, he'll manage. But if he's not perfect, then it is not possible. Therefore the endeavor should be made... Either call it dictator or president or king, it doesn't matter. The man on the top of the executive must be a perfect man.
Lord Brockway: Now, in taking your view that all men and women are the children of God, they've got God within them, then the advance of mankind must be by giving the opportunity of God in all men and women.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Lord Brockway: To come to fulfillment.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our mission.
Lord Brockway: And at the present time you haven't got those conditions. Because of inequalities, because of poverty, because of hunger, because of war, you haven't got those conditions.
Prabhupāda: No, I...
Lord Brockway: And therefore, therefore, it is not only the goodness of an individual which you want. You want, combined with the goodness of an individual, of an understanding of the causes...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Lord Brockway: ...which lead to hunger and poverty and war.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.
David Lawrence: One day it's in, and the next day it's out. And while it's in, everybody claps and applauds. One or two other points, perhaps I can raise one or two of them. Some of them are longer in fact. An interesting thing that came out of my study of the Christian, or certainly the Jewish tradition, and I wondered, really, on your views on this, whether it relates at all to the Indian one. It seems when you get to the really high spot of Jewish religion, which many people consider the prophets of Judah...,
Prabhupāda: What is their high spot?
David Lawrence: Well, exactly,(laughs) that is, in inverted commas.
Prabhupāda: They are rotting in the lowest spot, still. What is their high spot?
David Lawrence: Let's think, somebody like, perhaps Isaiaḥ or somebody like this who was a universalist and uh...
Prabhupāda: Somebody, somebody says so many things...
David Lawrence: Yes, that's right. Oh yes, I mean if you take them, they all differ in their views. But one of the things, one of the themes that comes through is the idea that...
Prabhupāda: So you read it and find out.
David Lawrence: Will you?
Śyāmasundara: Sure, sure, sure.
David Lawrence: That will be... I've said to the publishers, as far as I'm concerned, they've given me a date at the end of September, but I've said if the people in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement do not accept what I've put forward as a representative view of their own, then the date's going to go back. I've said that. So that's an accepted idea.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)
Śyāmasundara: ...he's very happy and he's going to, for vacation for one month in September so that he can read and chant for one month undisturbed. He's reading now Kṛṣṇa Book daily.
Prabhupāda: He should, one day should have come here see the Deity.
Śyāmasundara: He's going to come before he leaves. He's leaving on fifth September.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice.
Śyāmasundara: He's coming next week.
Mālatī: She is doing her japa.
Prabhupāda: All right. (end)
Prabhupāda: Now, degree may be, but ultimately, if you are unable to give perfect knowledge, then what is the use of taking knowledge from you?
Guest (2): Yes, I accept that view. But how do you prove that a man...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore you take from the perfect, Kṛṣṇa. We take from Kṛṣṇa's representative. One who speaks as good as Kṛṣṇa. That is our process. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). We don't take, don't accept knowledge from any rascal. We accept knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. I may be rascal, but because I am receiving knowledge from the perfect, whatever we speak, that is perfect. A child may be innocent he does not know. But he has learned that this article is called spectacle. So when he says, the child says, "Father, this is spectacle." This is perfect knowledge. Similarly, if you hear from the perfect and act accordingly, then you are perfect. Now Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. After death there is another body. So we accept it. It doesn't require any proof of so-called science who's imperfect.
Guest (2): So the question of belief comes first.
Prabhupāda: It is not belief, it is fact.
Guest (2): Yes, but if you say fact, how do you prove?
Prabhupāda: This is proof, Kṛṣṇa says.
Prabhupāda: They give this example that: "You also kill vegetables, just this grass blade is broken. It is killed. So it is equal to maintaining a big slaughterhouse." You see? This is going on, under the name of re... They, they were Christian nuns. In London they come to me, talk some time. So... And in India also, we see now cow killing is going on, regular slaughterhouse and... What can I say? You are government man. (laughs) You may take some wrong views about me. What is your opinion, personal?
Ambassador: I'm afraid I'm a very democratic person. If people, if they sincerely believe that they cannot exist without meat, they should be permitted, and once that is granted...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Ambassador: ...you have to organize slaughterhouses.
Prabhupāda: Then, then that is the, our misfortune that we have lost our Indian culture.
Ambassador: Because...
Prabhupāda: Indian culture.
Ambassador: Your Grace, what you want is really a sort of complete...
Prabhupāda: No, I don't want.
Prabhupāda: Do they, actually?
Reporter (2): Why is that, do you think?
Prabhupāda: That he can explain. He's Western people.
Reporter (2): But I mean, how about in your view?
Haṁsadūta: He wants to hear it from you.
Prabhupāda: They are getting some substance. You see. Just like here is a sweetmeat. If you have never tasted a sweetmeat before and if you are supplied a nice sweetmeat, naturally you appreciate and take it.
Reporter (2): But why, why 1966? I mean what was there, what was there, special about the Sixties?
Prabhupāda: And before that, this thing was not administered.
Reporter (2): I mean the mood of the time might have been right then. I mean was there something about that age that made it especially attractive to the young people?
Prabhupāda: Young people, even Young boys, they also take. So generally teenagers, they to...Teenagers, they take it very nicely.
Reporter (2): Why was that? I mean what was there, was there something special about the 1960's that made it more likely that people would go for...?
Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous. Then you will all fall down. If you make a joint mess, if you go and collect something and then eat and sleep, then everything will be... Therefore I do not want to keep separate. The temple worship means there will be regulative principles, that you will have to rise early in the morning, you have to attend class, kīrtana... These things, as soon as you give up all these things, zero. Then it will be like karmīs, as they are, hard labor, collecting money, and enjoying senses. That's all. So that is the pitfall everywhere. In the church, temple, as soon as they get some nice income, then in the name of "priest," "sādhu," "sannyāsī," they do the same thing. Therefore Gosvāmīs, they left everything. That is the danger of viṣaya, viṣaya touch. Viṣaya chāḍiyā se rase majiyā. As soon as we give up this śravaṇam, kīrtanam, then it becomes viṣaya. Viṣaya means materialism. There is no spiritualism. Kṣurasya dhārā, kṣurasya dhārā. Kṣura means sharpened razor. If you are careful, you cleanse very nicely. If you are not careful, immediately blood. Immediately. So the spiritual life is like that. As soon as you become little inattentive, immediately māyā captures, "Yes, come on." Then everything failure. We have got the tendency to enjoy sense. So senses are strong. As soon as there is opportunity, the senses will take advantage immediately. Then your whole business finished, Choṭa Haridāsa, and rejected by Mahāprabhu, "Get out." Even associate of Caitanya Mahāprabhu failed, personal associate. So there is chance of falling down even from the personal association of God. Jaya-Vijaya, they had to become demons. So these are the... If we do not follow strictly our regulative principles, routine work, then the whole scheme will be failure. Then, instead of Christianity, it will be "churchianity." You know this word, "churchianity?" You know? Yes. Everywhere this churchianity is going on. And the real aim is how to enjoy sense, under different cover. That is going on all over the world. Therefore it has come to that Rajneesh. Ramakrishna Mission, Rajneesh mission. Vivekananda has given preached, Yata mata tata patha, Rajneesh also, a mata. They have got also followers. Everyone can manufacture his own way of religion. So sense enjoyment, there is free field. This material world means sense enjoyment. But spiritual life means no sense enjoyment, tapasya. Tapo divyam. Sense enjoyment is there even in the hogs. Then where is the difference between man and hog? The man means the more he has denied sense enjoyment, he is advanced. Otherwise the spirit of sense enjoyment there is in the hogs. That is the difference. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). These ordinary men, they are working so hard, but what is their aim? The aim is sense enjoyment. So keeping the point, sense enjoyment, in view, there is no difference between hogs and human beings. Because they are also working day and night, hogs.
Prabhupāda: Somebody who was atheist, talk with Kīrtanānanda.
Bali Mardana: Hṛdayānanda Swami.
Prabhupāda: You, you were atheist?
Hṛdayānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So what is your view of atheist? What is your argument?
Hṛdayānanda: I don't know. I couldn't think of any good argument. They say that... No, it's not a good argument, though.
Bali Mardana: It's all one, isn't it.
Hṛdayānanda: Kīrtanānanda, his argument was, when he was an atheist, he said that actually the void is truth, and all categories or all varieties are illusion. So he said that we may think that actually spiritual variegatedness is transcendental, but that's actually also our illusion. That was his argument.
Prabhupāda: So what did you reply?
Hṛdayānanda: I replied that if categories are illusion, then his talking is also illusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice.
Hṛdayānanda: So I wouldn't let him say anything else.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, very good reply. "And you are also illusioned. Whatever nonsense you are talking, that is also illusion. Finish. Void, everything." Then what did he reply?
Prabhupāda: And what you manufacture, is that God?
Prajāpati: They see...
Prabhupāda: What do you manufacture? You are imperfect. So whatever you manufacture, that is imperfect. How it can be God?
Prajāpati: Well, God is simply the way we view each other, relationship with each other, as the...
Prabhupāda: Well, that is your manufacture. Why do you say like that? Each other's relationship? The relationship already there. What is to make new there? The already... God is great, and we are small. The relationship is already there. So how you can make another relationship? God is great. Is it not? God is great. Is it not?
Prajāpati: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And then what you are? You are small.
Prajāpati: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No, what is that honesty and what is that goodness? They must give some definition.
Prajāpati: You've summed it up very nicely, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you call them just jugglers of words.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is scientist? Svarūpa Dāmodara?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Here Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So, what is the standard of goodness according to your scientific view?
Hṛdayānanda: They say, "Just don't... If someone does what he likes and doesn't hurt anyone else, that's good."
Karandhara: They don't do that.
Hṛdayānanda: "If I just do my thing for God but I don't hurt anyone, that's good."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have no definition for standard of goodness.
Prabhupāda: No. No, no many times they...
Hṛdayānanda: Many times they say that...
Prabhupāda: They have no standard. But we have got definition of God. That is the difference. What is our definition?
Satsvarūpa: Supreme controller.
Prajāpati: That person who is complete with all six opulences...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No, you may not agree with him. Still, you have to accept. That is his supremacy. You may not agree with him, but because he's supreme, you have to accept his order. That is his position. It does not depend on your acceptance or not acceptance. That is supremacy. Is it not?
Hṛdayānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You cannot say, "Mr. President, I don't agree with you. Therefore I shall not accept your order." No. You have to. You agree or not agree. That is supremacy. So when we judge the supremacy from material standpoint of view, we find that these things are the symptoms of supremacy. So all these symptoms must be in full extent in God. That is Supreme Person. God is great, God is the supreme controller. How He's supreme controller? So these are the symptoms. Therefore the definition of God given by Parāśara Muni.
- aiśvaryasya samagrasya
- vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyāḥ
- jñāna-vairāgyayoś caiva
- ṣaṇṇam bhāga itiṅgaṇa
- (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47)
From Bhagavān, the other word is bhāgyavān. Bhāgyavān means fortunate. One who has got the symptoms of supremacy, he's called fortunate. The supreme fortunate is God. Lakṣmī. Lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyamānam (Bs. 5.29). Here we are begging little favour of goddess of fortune, but Kṛṣṇa is always worshiped by many thousands of goddess of fortune. That is Kṛṣṇa's position.
Yaśomatīnandana: You don't think, Prabhupāda, they have reached the moon?
Prabhupāda: No. There are so many invisible planets. Not that all the stars and planets, you can see, just like Rāhu planet. That is not seen. And when the Rāhu planet passes through, that is eclipse, but they describe in a different way. Actually, it is the Rāhu planet which passes before the sun and moon and there is eclipse. There are so many questionable things of the theory that, the eclipse theory of the modern view. That is not correct according to Vedic theory.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The eclipse?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the science proves it.
Prabhupāda: Science proves everything. That is their nonsense. They, amongst their community, they have proved everything except what he is, he does not know. Except that thing, what he is, he does, he does not know. And why he dies. He does not know. That is his knowledge.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They can make a model of the universe...
Hṛdayānanda: The use...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They make a model of the planets, of the movement.
| Page Title: | View (Conversations 1968 - 1973) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 21 of Nov, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=49, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 49 |