Brahmānanda: Generally when the child is kidnapped, the parent is always present. And when they have the deprogramming torture session, the parent is also present.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And in fact, the persons who do a lot of the torturing are relatives.
Ādi-keśava: Just like in the case of Vasu-gopāla. When he was held in his house, he managed to get to the phone and call me. So we went out to his house with some of the brahmacārīs from the temple and starting breaking all the windows in the house and smacking down the doors. And as he was running around the house, his brothers and friends were grabbing him and throwing him down against the walls and locked him in a room to try to get him away from us, and they were fighting. Finally, they say in Ted Patrick's book, they thought there were twenty-five of us. There were only four of us or five of us. So finally, in the end, they were so terrified that all of them began to fight. Even this Ted Patrick came at me with a straight razor. In those cases, generally, they use the family members for the fighting.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This clouds the issue in the courtroom, because everyone naturally feels very sympathetic towards the fathers and mothers. So always... These deprogrammers are very intelligent. They personally try to avoid the physical part, so they get the parents to do it.
Ādi-keśava: And then, if the person strikes out at the parent, they say, "Just see how crazy he's become!" Just like with Vasu-gopāla, he took a stick and hit his mother across the head and ran out shouting the name of Nṛsiṁhadeva as they were holding him captive, so he could run away. And so they said, "Just see how crazy he's become that he hit his own mother." Of course, the fact is they didn't mention they locked him in the bathroom for thirty hours just before. They kept him in a little bathroom. They locked the door, put him in there for thirty hours. All they mentioned is that he come out and hit her on the head with some stick. So then they say, "Just see! He's acting against his parents." So then the judge says, "Oh, what can I do? Naturally the father loves the son."
Prabhupāda: So why don't you quote from our śāstra that "He is not father." Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt. Find out this verse.
Pradyumna:
- gurur na sa syāt sva-jano na sa syāt
- pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt
- daivaṁ na tat syān na patiś ca sa syān
- na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum
"One who cannot deliver his dependents from the path of repeated birth and death should never become a spiritual master, a father, a husband, a mother or a worshipable demigod."
Prabhupāda: So how he's father? What is the purport?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Read the purport.
Pradyumna: "There are many spiritual masters, but Ṛṣabhadeva..." (break)
Prabhupāda: And who is father according to that definition? This is our formula.
Ādi-keśava: They argue sometimes. They say, "You are saying that you guru..."
Prabhupāda: You are argue your point, but our argument is here. You are arguing from your point of view, and we shall argue from our point of view. Unless the father releases the son from the cycle of birth and death, he's not father. This is our formula.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In order to accept this, they will have to rewrite the laws.
Prabhupāda: This is the actual... Now, apart from the scriptural injunction, if one comes to the argument, then such kind of father is there in the animal society also. Cats and dogs, they also beget children, but they cannot relieve the child from the cycle of birth and death. And Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). First of all you have to see what is the actual distress in this material life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So in this life you are my father, and next time I become a cat or dog, so who cares for this father? I get another father. So who knows this law? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). The laws of nature is going on, and everything is happening. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). We are getting a type of body according to karma.