Prabhupāda: Is it clear? This is called karma. But our activity is for Kṛṣṇa. So we act. If there is profit it is Kṛṣṇa's. If there is loss it is Kṛṣṇa's. We are unaffected. We are making this preaching work of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If somebody comes he's Kṛṣṇa's, he's not mine. These boys serving me, not for my sense gratification, for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Similarly, if he goes to serve a master, he serves the master for the sense gratification of the particular person. Therefore he pays him. So he does not serve that master. He serves that payment. And what is that payment? For his sense gratification. Therefore he serves his sense gratification. The karma is serving one's sense gratification. And bhakti is serving Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification. Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied in this way. We work in that way. So it is not karma. And as soon as they'll work: "Oh, I'll get this money and satisfy my senses." That is karma. So I become subject to the result. It may be good or bad. But when you work for Kṛṣṇa it is all good. There is no question of bad. And all good goes to the All Good. I'm simply His eternal servant. That's all. Another example: this finger takes some foodstuff and gives to the stomach. So when the stomach is satisfied, the finger is satisfied automatically. It does not require to take separately any food. But the karmis are trying to enjoy themselves just like the finger. If it takes a nice cake and if he thinks that why shall I give it to the stomach? So it cannot eat. It simply spoils. That's all. So we are spoiling our energy without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And therefore you are being subjected to the laws of transmigrating from one species of life. We are simply spoiling our time and energy. So if we take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that is the proper utilization of our energy given by God. Just like if I'm healthy the finger is also healthy. Then what is the duty of the healthy finger? To serve this body. Similarly, we have got this energy from Kṛṣṇa, from God.
There is no question (Conversations 1968 - 1972)
Expressions researched:
"no question"
|"there can be no question"
|"there could be no question"
|"there is no question"
|"there was no question"
|"there will be no question"
|"without any question"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: I do not know what is self-hypnosis.
Interviewer: Hypnotizing yourself.
Prabhupāda: No, it is no question of hypnotizing. Meditation means to search out what I am. Just like if you sit down quietly, if you see your body, first of all see your finger, and question whether I am hand? You'll say, no. Whether I am this head? You'll say no. Whether I am this leg? Because everywhere I will say, "It is my hand, it is my head, it is my leg, it is my sole." Everything "my." So you have to find out what is "I."
Caller: I see.
Prabhupāda: Unless you come to that point, what is "I," there is no meaning of meditation. Then the meditation is finished. Now, the activities after meditation begins. Meditation is to search out what you are. As soon as you know your identity, then your real activity begins. So we take it from Bhagavad-gītā what is my real identity and begin our service. So that is called devotional service.
Interviewer: We're talking with Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta, head of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. We'll be back in a minute. (break) KGO.
Prabhupāda: Free passage.
Caller: Free passage. Who pays for that free passage?
Prabhupāda: Oh, free passage, there was no question of payment. The shipping company carried me free.
Interviewer: Shipping company carried him free.
Caller: The shipping company carried you free. Who buys your food for you?
Prabhupāda: When I came, I came with some introduction letter. So my guests, they provided me.
Caller: Your guests provide you. In other words, you're a free-loader.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Caller: Why do you set up your church into an area like the Haight-Ashbury? Your so-called temple?
Prabhupāda: Our so-called temple?
Caller: Your so-called temple. Why do you set up a place like that in the Haight-Ashbury?
Interviewer: I'll rephrase it. I'm going to punch her out. Why is your church located in the area of the hippies?
Prabhupāda: It is not for particularly selected the hippies' quarter, but the boys they found a cheaper place in that quarter. Therefore they occupied that place.
Prabhupāda: Expansion is direct, and incarnation is indirect. When expansion of expansion is accepted, that is called kalā, incarnation, avatāra, kalā. So Advaita is not direct. The example is given in Brahma-saṁhitā. Just like you get one candle kindled from the first candle, another from the second, another from the third. So similarly, either expansion or incarnation, they are all candles. The original candle is Kṛṣṇa. It is not that expansion of expansion is less powerful. The candle power is the same either origin or expansion or expansion of the expansion. It is not that Nityānanda is less powerful than Caitanya, or Advaita is less powerful than... No. Any incarnation or expansion has the same potency, Viṣṇu-tattva. The manifestation of potency is different. Just like Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Lord Rāma is also the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But one is original. Kṛṣṇa is original, and Rāma is an expansion. Why? Because Kṛṣṇa exhibited the qualities of God fully. Rāma exhibited qualities of God partially. Take for example, Rāma was manifesting Himself as an ideal king. He was not manifesting Himself as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore as ideal king He was limiting Himself with the moral principles of this world. And Kṛṣṇa, being the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He exhibited that He's above any principle of the material world. He's free to act any way He likes. Otherwise what is the meaning... Means full-fledged manifestation of God. Lord Rāma, He married only one, Sītā. And when Sītā was kidnapped by Rāvaṇa, He never married again. Or when Sītā was sent to the forest for public opinion, He never married again. He remained a sticked to, stuck to only one wife because He was setting example, moral principle, to the world. Kṛṣṇa married 16,108. Not religious. Religious, He married only eight wife. But these 16,100 girls were kidnapped by one demon, and they were concentrated in a camp. So they prayed to Kṛṣṇa to save them. Kṛṣṇa is kind to everyone. So Kṛṣṇa came to their rescue, and He killed that demon. He rescued all the girls. But the girls requested Kṛṣṇa that "Because we were kidnapped and we are concentrated under his custody, so if we go back to our father, it will be difficult for him to get us married to a suitable prince. So our request is that You marry us." (Prabhupāda laughs) Kṛṣṇa agreed, "All right." He married wholesale, 16,100. (laughter) And that can be possible. Why 16,100? He can marry 16 million at a time. Otherwise how He's God? Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja advises his classfellows that "Don't be bothering yourself for solution of economic question." That is already provided. Just like all these animals, these birds, they have no question how to live, how to eat, how to mate, how to defend. This is already there. They're eating, they're sleeping, they're mating, and they're defending as far as required. Just see the birds, as soon as they see us they go away, take defense. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: So the florist is given a certain tract of land free, and let him produce flower and make business. But the quantity of flower I require for my temple, he must supply daily. Similarly, the bandsman, he should come and play band. Everything was on land distribution. That was the system. And tax was paid to the government. Not by assessment. Uh, assessment... Whatever your land production is there, you give to the government one-fourth. That's all. If you have produced 1,000 mound grains, you have to give to the government 250 mounds. And if you have produced 100, then you give 25. So there is no question of harassment. Whatever is the production is there... So these profession is accepted from Vedic time, different kinds of men engaged in different kinds of activities. Maybe a florist, maybe a potter, maybe a cobbler, maybe anything, grain producer... So many, society requires so many things. So according to Vedic system, there is a class, and Bhāgavata says that "You are engaged in your occupational duty; so whether you are getting success by such occupational duty?" The Vedic system does not condemn anyone. "You are a potter. Oh, you are lower." No. You are as good as a priest because you are doing your duty. That's all right. Never condemns. This is development of later age when the so-called brāhmaṇas became, I mean to say, treacherous. They began to condemn so-called lower class. There was disruption, the whole social system. But in the beginning it was not. So they have got respectable terms. Just like a brāhmaṇa is addressed as paṇḍita mahārāja. A kṣatriya is addressed ṭhākura saheb, ṭhākur. And a merchant is addressed: sethji. And the laborer class addressed as choudhari, means leader. In this way everyone has got respectable position. Why? Because the test of their success was one, Viṣṇu. Success... Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ labhate param. Whatever your occupation may be, that doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: Fighting is not very good thing, but if there is necessity... Just like in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra. The Battlefield of Kurukṣetra was organized by two rival parties. One party was pious; another party was impious. So Kṛṣṇa took side of Arjuna, and he was victorious. That is the history of Kurukṣetra fight. So the Lord wanted to exhibit His fighting spirit. And who will fight with Him? Therefore two of His devotees were resigned that they should go in the material world and fight with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Because in the Vaikuṇṭha world there is no question of fighting. There is no enmity. Everyone accepts the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the protector, as the master, as the Lord, and they serve faithfully. So there is no question of fighting. In the material world everyone wants to be the lord, everyone wants to be God. So therefore there is fight. The fighting here takes place because everyone wants to lord it over the material nature. So there is difference of interest. I want to be lord, you want to be lord: now there must be fight. But in the Vaikuṇṭha world there is one Lord and all others servitors. Therefore there is peace. So fighting was not possible in the Vaikuṇṭha world; therefore these two doorkeepers were sent to the material world by the plan of the Supreme Lord so that they could fight as Hiraṇyakaśipu and Hiraṇyākṣa with the Lord. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Now the spiritual spark is entering into the material world, penetrating seven layers. This is called avyakta, nonmanifested. Just like in the sky there are nonmanifested and manifested things. If you go high, some 25,000, fifty thousand miles up, you'll simply find in the sky nothing manifested. But if you go still higher, higher, higher, you will find some other planets existing. So the part which is nonmanifested is called avyakta, and the part which is manifested, that is called vyakta. So these two souls from Vaikuṇṭha, they are coming into this material world. So they're penetrating the nonmanifested matter. As the matter... Five elements—earth, water, fire, air, ether. And then... These are gross elements. And there are subtle elements: mind, intelligence, ego. And then spiritual.
Prabhupāda: Caṇākya Paṇḍita is giving too much stress on mother and wife in family life. So he says if one's mother is dead and if his wife is not very..., apriya-vādinī, and does not behave very well, ill-behaving, so Caṇākya Paṇḍita advises him that aranyaṁ tena gantavyam: such person should immediately go to the forest. Because in the Vedic understanding there is no divorce. If the wife is not very pleasing, there is no question of divorcing. Caṇākya Paṇḍita does not advise it, the advise that he should divorce such wife, but he says, aranyaṁ tena gantavyam: he should give up family life and go to the forest. Divorce was completely unknown, even up to, say, five years ago. Now this Nehru government has enacted Divorce Act in Hindu law, but actually, Hindu law-maker, they have no such thing as divorce.
So Caitanya Mahāprabhu, this is one of the brilliant examples of opulence, that He renounced His so happy family life, not disturbing life, and very, at a very young age, when everyone is after enjoying family life. So is it not a great opulence? Very great opulence. Young man, having good mother, good wife, good home, good reputation, good following, good parentage, beauty—everything—but He renounced. That is the greatest opulence. He renounced everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is the greatest opulence of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Similarly, if we can follow His footprints. Not that we have to give up everything, but give up everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is very nice.
So any other particular question? Yes.
Devotee: His Divine Grace Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī accepted both Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Śrīla Gaurakiśora as his spiritual master.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was playing Vaiṣṇava drama in His household life, rather in student life, and He was taking the part of Rukmiṇī, because He was very beautiful young boy. Formerly, in our childhood also, we saw in drama there was no females taking part. If there was a female part, the man would be dressed just like a female. Formerly females are not allowed. If one has to find out a female for taking part in drama, then he has to find out from other quarters, not in respectable part. Now, very, very respectable, educated girls are taking in drama and cinema in India. Formerly this was not possible. And perhaps in the theatrical performances, stage, that was introduced by Lord Caitanya, drama. But His dramatical performances were limited within the devotees. He will not allow to take part in the performance who is not a devotee. So if our devotees... That movie was very nice. That's a good example. If we play, train our devotees to present some dramatical performances or movie, I think it will be very successful, because they will play from transcendental sentiment, not for trade purpose. So that will come out very successful. Yes. In our childhood we had the occasion of taking part in a drama, Caitanya-līlā. I took the part of Advaita, and our friends, others, somebody took the part of Caitanya, Nityānanda. So that drama was so successful, it was unique in Calcutta. Because we were not, we were not professionals. I saw from the stage a huge gathering, they're all crying. I was surprised, "Why these people are crying?" You see? It was great successful, because we were not professionals. We were not devotees at that time, but some of us were devotee by family tradition, but not exactly what is actually meant by devotee. But still, because we were not professionals, the drama was so successful, unique. And there was no female. Now Śacidevī, Śacidevī, the friend who take the part, took the part of Śacidevī, his shoulders were so big, (laughing) so just see. So there was no question of beautiful woman taking part. So still the drama was very successful. Similarly, when Caitanya Mahāprabhu staged, all the devotees took part. Śrīvāsa Ṭhākura, Advaita, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nityānanda and Mukunda and other, all devotees... (pause) Yes?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That I explained. For ordinary neophyte devotees... This is the highest stage. The stage of the gopīs or the cowherd boys playing with Kṛṣṇa, oh, they are kṛta-punya-puñjāḥ. Many, many lives they have undergone many types of sacrifices, austerities, penances, and then they have come to that stage. That stage is not ordinary stage. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Śukadeva Gosvāmī says, itthaṁ satāṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtya dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena, māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ (SB 10.12.11). He is describing when Kṛṣṇa was playing with His cowherds boy. So he is describing that "These cowherds boy—who are they? They are living entities who have amassed volumes and volumes of pious activities." Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. "After many, many lives Just like bank balance increases, similarly, one who has increased the balance of pious activities for many, many thousands of lives, oh, such persons are now playing with Kṛṣṇa. They have taken the body of His cowherds boy, transcendental spiritual body, and just they are playing with Kṛṣṇa. And who is Kṛṣṇa?" Itthaṁ satāṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtya: "The great saints and sages who are trying to understand the Supreme Brahman, here is Kṛṣṇa. That Supreme Brahman is here, playing." Itthaṁ satāṁ brahma-sukhanubhutya dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena: "The impersonalist Brahman is... Because Kṛṣṇa's effulgence is impersonal Brahman, so here is He." And dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ: "Those who are devotees, those who have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the master, for them here is Kṛṣṇa." And māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa: "And those who are materialistic—they simply think Kṛṣṇa is ordinary boy or man—He is also there. But who are these boys? They are playing with the same person who is Brahman, who is Bhagavān, or who is ordinary man, according to different calculation. But these boys who are playing with Him, they have accumulated many, many lives' heaps of pious activities." They are not ordinary men. So all these gopīs, all the cowherds boy in Vṛndāvana, they are not ordinary living entities. They have approached that stage after many, many pious activities. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. After brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Their position is different. Therefore they have reached that unalloyed stage: without any consideration, simply loving Kṛṣṇa. That stage they have passed already. There is no such consideration. Pure love. That is pure love. Pure love means anyābhilāśitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Brs. 1.1.11). There is no question of knowledge.
Journalist: Is there much divorce in India?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The modern, so-called advanced boys and girls, they are now after divorce. But before that, even there was misunderstanding between husband and wife, quarrel, there was no question of divorce. Take my life practical. I was a householder. Now I have given up. So practically I did not agree with my wife, but there was no dream of divorcing. You see? Neither she dreamt, neither I dreamt. This was unknown. Now they are being introduced.
Journalist: Yeah. Western culture.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.
Journalist: Do you have much of a following in India itself?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not my personal, but my other Godbrothers, this cult is very good.
Journalist: How many, how many...
Prabhupāda: Oh, millions. We have got, this Vaiṣṇava philosophy, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, million and millions. Almost all. 80 percent. You ask any Indian and he'll talk so many things about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He may not be my disciple, but there are many saintly person like me. They are doing this business.
Journalist: Did you get formal training with a...
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes, good children.
Interviewer: Good children. Well, if the parents are good, then there is a remarkable possibility that the children may have a chance to be. Is that not true?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is the fact. That is the fact.
Interviewer: And you said that your followers may not drink? What about the drug picture, marijuana, LSD, and those?
Prabhupāda: No, no, we don't... There is no question, because all kinds of intoxication prohibited. We don't allow even smoking and tea-drinking, coffee-taking. You see? Any kind of intoxication we don't allow.
Interviewer: In other words, I guess it would be correct to say that this is in the Western sense of the word, a religious order.
Prabhupāda: It is not religious order. It is cultural because one cannot understand higher philosophical things if he is intoxicated.
Interviewer: No, I meant the whole, the over all picture of your group. You speak of initiates, you speak of certain disciplines. This is almost... I'm trying to translate it into Western terms. Like a religious order.
Prabhupāda: No, it is...
Interviewer: Now, you could say philosophical order, a cultural order. But the people...
Prabhupāda: No, of course, I do not know what is Zen conception, or Eastern conception, but we agree with many of them, just like we agree with the concept of God presented by Bible or Koran. That is recognized. And Bhagavad-gītā is so simple that it does not require any interpretation. When things are understood directly, there is no question of interpretation. When things are not understood, then you can interpret, I can interpret. So the verses of Bhagavad-gītā are so simple that there is no question of interpretation. Unfortunately I have seen that in Bhagavad-gītā, commented by a great scholar like Dr. Radhakrishnan, the verse is translated very nicely and that is done by an Englishman, but he interprets in a different way. So when we can understand the thing very nicely, there is no question of interpretation. You see?
Interviewer: Well, would you say that, agree with those who say that in the people who have understood, in all the great schools of thought they have come to approximately, at least and sometimes almost, identical conclusions. The thinking of the great mystics in all religions have been in essential agreement.
Prabhupāda: The thing is that religion is a different thing. Religion is a kind of faith. You may have your faith in a certain type of procedure; I may have a certain type of procedure. That is different thing. Suppose you are now Christian. You may change your faith to Mohammedanism. But you as person, you do not change. Your faith may change. Similarly, we are concerned with consciousness.
Prabhupāda: But that frustration has no disappointment. (laughter) That is the beauty. Just like Lord Caitanya is manifesting that spiritual frustration. "Oh Kṛṣṇa, I could not see You." He's jumping on the sea in frustration. But that frustration is the highest perfection of love. Yes. Everything is there. But without inebriety. You are very intelligent boy. I thank you. Yes. Yes. There is frustration, but not this frustration. Yes. That frustration, I mean to say, enriches one's eagerness of love for Kṛṣṇa. Everything is there, but without inebriety. Everything is there. Yes. Now see, Viṣṇu? Of course, in Vaikuṇṭha-jagat there is no violence. But Viṣṇu is taking the symbol of violence. Otherwise what is the meaning of this disc and club? So when He wants to be violent, He comes here as Nṛsiṁha-mūrti. (laughter) And He sends some of His devotees to play violence. That is Hiraṇyakaśipu. Because there the devotees are so much in accord with Kṛṣṇa and Viṣṇu that there is no question of disagreement. But violence is when this disagree-ment, atheist. Therefore sometimes a devotee is deputed in this world to play as atheist, and Kṛṣṇa comes to kill him. To teach these people that "If you become atheist, then here is disc and club for you." But it is not possible to be displayed in the Vaikuṇṭha. Otherwise, if there is no the propensity of violence... Just like there is sometimes mock fight. A father is fighting in mock with a small child, and he has become defeated. But there is pleasure. So ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). The Lord is joyful. So there is joy in fighting also sometimes. So your question that everything is there, that is a fact. Everything is there. Otherwise if everything is not there, they cannot be manifested here because it is reflection. Just like in... Of course, this discovery is by the Vaiṣṇava, Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. Just like the love between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, it is called parakiya. They are not married husband and wife. But Rādhārāṇī appears to be wife of some other gentleman. But Kṛṣṇa, from childhood, They were friends.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Miss Rose: These are all my sisters and brothers, Swamiji. Right?
Prabhupāda: Yes. certainly. So don't worry. Kṛṣṇa will give you better place.
Satsvarūpa: That was a disappointment because we almost, almost had it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No question of disappointment. In Los Angeles, we had so many disappointments. At last, we got very nice place. Now we are after bigger place.
Candanācārya: Tell Swamiji about the church we want to get.
Miss Rose: The church...?
Prabhupāda: Then that article has worked adversely?
Satsvarūpa: Yeah. The real estate man said if it had only come out a week later, he said, "You'd be in."
Prabhupāda: So publicity like this is not good for us, that people are thinking we are hippies.
Miss Rose: Yes. That's true, Swamiji. Yeah.
Prabhupāda: So then you should not give publicity. You must even in the beginning verify that we are not hippies. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is not for hippies. In many places this is a notion, that we are hippies.
Devotee: Montreal.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prabhupāda: No, no. He took sannyāsa by previous arrangement. One day He went away from home, accompanied by Murāri and Lord Nityānanda, and went to Katwa. There was one Māyāvādī sannyāsī, Keśava Bhāratī, and He took sannyāsa from him. And then He was, in emotion He was going to Vṛndāvana, but He was misled by Nityānanda, and He was brought to the home of Advaita, and Advaita arranged to bring His mother to see Him for the last. So His mother and many people from Nabadwip came to Sant... Advaita's house was in Santipur. So there was, for a few days, Caitanya Mahāprabhu stayed there, and saṅkīrtana and prasāda distribution was going on. And His mother feeling, feeling very well... But Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw that "My mother is not allowing Me to go. That is not good." So He requested, "Mother, I have taken sannyāsī. If I go on feasting like this with mother, what people will say? So you give Me permission to go." So mother said, "Yes, my dear boy. You have taken sannyāsī. But anyway You are happy. That is my happiness. But my only request is that You make Your headquarters at Jagannātha Purī. Because people from Nabadwip generally go there, so I shall get at least Your news. That is my last desire." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "Yes. I shall make My headquarters in Purī." So people were coming and going. So His mother was getting news of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That was then last days. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu, after that incident, never met, either His mother... And there was no question of meeting with wife.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. So Jānakī, she can play the mother. She is...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And you can show another scene that His wife, Viṣṇupriyā, she was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and one round finished, she counted it with one grain of rice. One round finished, one grain rice. So as many rounds finished, she'll eat only so much rice. That's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. He did that?
Prabhupāda: The first scene should be that Nityānanda Prabhu and Haridāsa Ṭhākura. They were ordered by Caitanya Mahāprabhu to go every day to, from one neighborhood to another and preach. So one day when they came out they saw at a distant place a crowd. So you have to make scene that a crowded place and these two brothers, Jagāi and Mādhāi, they have pickpocketed somebody and... Because they were debauches, so there was some howling and crowds. Yes. So Nityānanda Prabhu inquired, and people said that "These two brothers, they're born of a very respectable family, but they have now become debauches." So Nityānanda Prabhu, "Oh, they are so fallen? So best thing is to convert them first. Then Lord Caitanya's name will be glorious that He has delivered such rascals." So He went there to save. Then he said, "Who are you?" As soon as they came in, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, chanting, and these brothers said, "Oh, who are you?" "Oh, we are Nityānanda, and he is Haridāsa. We are preaching. You also join with us." So, "Oh get out! Hare Kṛṣṇa, your damn Hare Kṛṣṇa. Get out!" (chuckles) So Haridāsa Ṭhākura was old man, and he was afraid. But Nityānanda was young man so He fled away. Haridāsa Ṭhākura could not go so swift. He said, "My dear Nityānanda, I think today my life is at risk." So anyway, then after they were going away, the crowd dispersed and the brothers were talking. So one brother was talking to the other, "Jagāi, I think that these people very nicely sing. Don't you hear?" "Oh! You are going to be a saṅkīrtana man?" "No, no, no! I am not going to be saṅkīrtana man. Just I am talking about it." So this was their beginning appreciation. Then next day, again in the same place, Nityānanda came, and He requested, "My dear brothers, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So the Mādhāi, no Jagāi, Jagāi was so angry. They were drinking. So here you drink in bottles. They drink in earthen pot. So there was earthen pot. He hurled against His head and there was blood oozing out. So the other brother, Mādhāi said, "Oh, what you are doing? What you are doing? He's innocent." This news was reached to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very much angry. He came, "Bring My cakra. I shall kill these rascals immediately." He became so angry. Then Nityānanda Prabhu implored, "My dear brother, why You are very angry? They are the sample of this age. So if You become angry, then whom we are going to deliver? The whole population is full of like Jagāi and Mādhāi. So our preaching is for the most fallen. Why do You remember, why do You forget this? Don't be angry." Then both the brothers, they fell on the feet of Nityānanda. "Please forgive us. We have done wrong. You are so nice people. You are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa so innocent, and we are so..." This is the effect of seeing a pure devotee. Heart becomes soft. This is the association, effect of association. So they surrendered. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "Yes, I will accept you. I don't care for your past deeds, but you have to agree that no more this nonsense." That means before initiation one might have done all nonsense things. That doesn't matter. That is not disqualification. But after initiation one should not. Then his life is changed immediately by this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. This is the instruction of Jagāi-Mādhāi. So there were only two Jagāi-Mādhāis, but you'll meet hundreds of Jagāi-Mādhāis. So... But they can be delivered. There is no question that in their past life they had been sinful.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no question, "every sect." Kṛṣṇa is the center of every sect. If Kṛṣṇa is the center, then there is no question of every sect. Only Kṛṣṇa sect.
John Lennon: Does Kṛṣṇa mean God?
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa means God, and God means Kṛṣṇa.
John Lennon: So for the Bible or any other holy book, they all talk about one God, but they all have many ways of...
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
George Harrison: Personalities.
John Lennon: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
John Lennon: It's still just the one Being everywhere, in all the books. But they all have... Why isn't Hare Kṛṣṇa or something similar in the Bible, then? I mean, that's the only other one I know because I was brought up with the Bible.
Gurudāsa: It is. In the 150th Psalm it says, "Praise the Lord with every breath. Praise the Lord with drum and flute."
John Lennon: But they haven't got very good tunes, you know. I mean, they haven't been passing on any good chants, have they?
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That's... They do not understand Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Why step by step? If you have to accept Kṛṣṇa, why not immediately? That is intelligence.
Guest (9): But you should be...
Prabhupāda: There is no question of "should be." When Kṛṣṇa says, "I'll give you protection," why "should be"? You don't believe in Kṛṣṇa. He says, ahaṁ tvaṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa (BG 18.66). You are doubtful about Kṛṣṇa's capacity. That means you do not know Kṛṣṇa. Yes.
Guest (9): But in a part of one form...
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Guest (9): To understand Kṛṣṇa...
Guest (2): He means that is beyond his capacity, to understand Him.
Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, "I am everything." Why don't you accept Him? That means you want to understand Kṛṣṇa in your own way. Why you are becoming intentionally unable?
Guest (9): No, believe Him as a you are a servant and serve Him. Or you believe that you are mother to Him.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Himāvatī: And another old man that was so old that he was ready to die. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Then you write, "Young men." No, even old man, there is no question. That we can test, whether he is able, he is a qualified brāhmaṇa. First of all he is qualified brāhmaṇa.
Himāvatī: You were going to Peruda(?) that day, so we said, "When we return, then you come and join us." But when we returned they didn't come. They changed their mind.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They cannot. They cannot. Only young men can join. Old men cannot join. (Hindi)
Guest (6): Asoka Kumar.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, I remember. So please, after finishing your education you come and join this great movement. They are joining Communist movement, this movement, that movement. Why not a real genuine movement for the welfare of the whole?
Guest (6): I am not joining any...
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say...
Guest (6): I want to join...
Prabhupāda: Generally they join. Generally they join.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: These are living, symptoms of living condition.
Guest (1): Living condition. So, but we are not affected by air, which is most required and most special for our use. Because it is abundant, and it will be given to every person at all the times, in all circumstances, therefore we do not keep it under lock and key. Western countries, though they have...
Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no question of Western-Eastern.
Guest (1): No, I was speaking of materialism and spiritualism. I was talking on that point, that though we see, I mean, I don't say have made it, but yet because there is no what kind of life they want, or in our Eastern countries, because they are...
Prabhupāda: No, no. If you study the whole thing in that way—Western-Eastern... There is no question of Western-Eastern. It is the question of the living entity.
Guest (1): Yes, how to live in such a way where there is no dearth of thing as well as there is no continuing of that need that a man becomes lost? That is the...
Prabhupāda: That is the point.
Guest (1): That is the point. And for that, what kind of spiritual should we lead?
Prabhupāda: That is... That I am going to explain, that... That is one line: sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriya-grāhyam (BG 6.21). This sukham ātyantikaṁ is being searched both by the Western, Eastern, everyone, even cats, dogs, everyone. But the cats and dogs, animals, they cannot adjust what is that ātyantikaṁ sukham. But human being can. So human being, there is no question of Eastern and Western. It is a question of degree only. But actually everyone is searching after that perpetual happiness. So it is a problem for everyone, and that problem can be solved by Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Guest (1): By?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the..., I mean to say, a rough scheme, rough estimation. Now, how Kṛṣṇa consciousness can solve this problem, that is a detailed thing. But this is a fact. It is not the question of Eastern-Western. It is the problem of all living entities.
Guest (1): Yes, living entities. Human, actually we have.
Prabhupāda: Not even human life, even animal life. There are 8,400,000s of different kinds of bodies. So this is a problem for everyone. Now in other species of life than the human form, they cannot solve. They have no power. But a human being can solve.
Guest (1): Yes, they have got understanding.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And that solution is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Guest (1): What do you mean by that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So as I liked, so I have got shirt and coat. This is material. But originally, spiritual form is the same as you have got, I have got, she has got a form, everyone. That is original form.
Guest (1): Now, our question... (indistinct) We try. Now, question of earning also, the definition is not here, being...
Prabhupāda: The question of earning comes so long you have got this material form. But from the spiritual form there is no question of earning.
Guest (1): In what way we will live in that spiritual form?
Prabhupāda: That you have to know. That you have to know. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ (Bs. 5.37). That spiritual form means complete blissfulness, complete knowledge, and eternity.
Guest (1): Turiya.
Prabhupāda: Turiya, yes.
Guest (1): In that turiya...
Prabhupāda: This is turiya life, complete blissfulness, complete knowledge, and eternity.
Guest (1): You see, because it is a creation of the world... (indistinct) And that means that matter is there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Matter is always there.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhakti is a process. Bhakti is not knowledge. That knowledge you acquire by your sense perception, and bhakti is the pure activities of the senses.
Guest (1): No, surrender means bhakti. One surrenders to...
Prabhupāda: No question of bhakti. That is the process. If you want to know about tat, then that is the process. You have to surrender. So long you will think that "I can think of, I have got power," you'll be failed.
Guest (1): That consideration of "myself, I am thinking," that is not there.
Prabhupāda: Then who is thinking?
Guest (1): Thinking means...
Prabhupāda: No, no, don't use abstract knowledge. As soon as you are thinking, you are thinking.
Guest (1): No, that sometimes thinking, when you are listening inside you...
Prabhupāda: Anyway, listening or thinking, these are different process of acquiring knowledge, but you are doing that.
Guest (1): Yes, my outer form is doing that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): But inner form may be...
Prabhupāda: Because you do not know, therefore you... Why you are thinking? Because you do not know.
Guest (1): No, it is not that...
Prabhupāda: Then there is no question of asking me. Then you think yourself.
Guest (1): No, we were trying...
Prabhupāda: First of all you try to understand the principle. Why you have come to ask me?
Guest (1): Not ask but just...
Prabhupāda: Because you are thinking on the lower level.
Guest (1): No, no, to configure over it, not to ask or...
Prabhupāda: Why configure? Configure does not mean that you have thought something in lower level; I have to confirm that.
Guest (1): Not even that. We have all...
Prabhupāda: Then, if you are thinking right, if you are thinking on the higher level, there is no question of coming to me.
Guest (1): There is no question of coming or going. Just it was that...
Prabhupāda: That is another theory. But the process is, our Vedic process, tad-vijñānārtham sa gurum eva abhigacchet: (MU 1.2.12) "In order to understand tat knowledge one must approach a spiritual master." Gacchet. If you don't accept these principles, then how you can make progress? Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsur śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). If you don't accept this principle, there is no possibility. Then you can go on thinking in your own way. There is no question of going to anyone. You make yourself perfect by thinking, as many others are doing, speculating. That is possible but never to the perfectional point.
Guest (1): Perfectly, you see... What is the category of different perfection?
Prabhupāda: That you have to learn. That you have to learn.
Guest (1): No, no, learn from whom?
Prabhupāda: From the higher authority.
Guest (1): So how we know?
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, who is higher authority. That you have to search out. That you have to search out.
Guest (1): We must understand what is higher person and what is lower and whether Buddha is correct or not.
Prabhupāda: Now, higher authority... Suppose we accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority. Our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority. Do you accept that?
Guest (1): I mean, I am shown the form. You see...
Prabhupāda: There is no question of shown. Kṛṣṇa is accepted higher authority not only by us by big ācāryas like Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, those who are guiding our Vedic life in India, Caitanya. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted the highest authority. (break) Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nāsti: "There is no more higher authority than Me." Then, if you don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority, that is your business, but we accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority.
Guest (1): So something is coming in that way because Kṛṣṇa, that was what He had said in a particular time or country...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Authority means..., it does not mean a time.
Guest (1): No, for that time.
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all try, try... Authority means...
Guest (1): For the time.
Prabhupāda: All the time. That is authority.
Guest (1): No, but later, later many lights shining...
Prabhupāda: (knock on door) Yes, open it. Anyway, to make cut short, to make cut short, so far we are concerned, we have declared, "International Society for Krishna Consciousness." Our process of propaganda is that Kṛṣṇa is the highest authority. That is our... You may take it that we are limited; that is your business. But we have taken this. Now, if you don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority, then there is no question of inquiring from us.
Guest (1): What is the form, you see, I mean...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the form. Here is Kṛṣṇa's form.
Guest (1): No, no, not that form.
Prabhupāda: Then what form?
Guest (1): What I mean is we are accepting anything to bring ourselves to certain destination which will satisfy us all. For that we are...
Prabhupāda: Nothing can satisfy everyone. That is not possible. There is no such thing within this material world which can satisfy everyone. There is no such thing.
Guest (1): Because we...
Prabhupāda: No, no, because... There may be so many "because." But the fact is that there is nothing in this material world which can satisfy everyone.
Guest (1): There can be a method which can...
Prabhupāda: That may be an ideal, but we take Kṛṣṇa as the highest authority. Even Kṛṣṇa's words are not accepted. That's a fact. Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." So a few persons might have surrendered to Him. Even Kṛṣṇa was present, only the Pāṇḍavas and the inhabitants of the Vṛndāvana and Dvārakā, some of them understood that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. But many did not accept Him. Many insulted Him. Just like Śiśupāla insulted Him. So even Kṛṣṇa could not be accepted.
Guest (1): Accept, I accept everyone. That is no question of accepting or...
Prabhupāda: No, no, your... I have summarized that first of all you have come to inquire from us that our standard of knowledge is Kṛṣṇa. If you accept Kṛṣṇa as the standard of perfection of knowledge, then there is possibility of our talking. Otherwise simply waste of time. Why shall we waste our time? Our standard is Kṛṣṇa. If you are agreeable to accept the standard of Kṛṣṇa, then there is possibility. Just like here is a lawyer. He goes to the lawyer. He speaks, he pleads, on the standard of the lawbooks. If somebody comes, "No, no, I don't accept this," then there is no question of argument. Both the lawyers are arguing. The central point is the lawbook. So you must have a central point on which we shall talk. If you have no central point...
Guest (1): Central point of happiness is there now.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, mūḍhā-matī, how to understand?
Guest (2): "Cannot recognize Me."
Prabhupāda: Suppose I am mūḍhā-matī, so how I am to understand?
Guest (2): Yes, but Kṛṣṇa as a body form could be seen and could be recognized by people as such. So there was no question of not understanding him.
Prabhupāda: Thing is that whatever I have understood about Kṛṣṇa I haven't got to learn from you.
Guest (2): No, you don't have to learn from me.
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Guest (2): But what you have to learn...
Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not speaking my own views. I have got my ācāryas, my teachers, Rāmānujācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya. So it is all right. It is all right. I have got so many authorities. What authority you have got?
Guest (2): I am, myself, in my own senses...
Prabhupāda: Now, you are not authority.
Guest (2): I am not but my own...
Prabhupāda: I am following so many authorities. Then... Then there is no question.
Prabhupāda: Neither you can give up this śloka. You cannot give up this śloka. Yes. So first of all you answer. See practical example. When Arjuna became confused, he said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam: (BG 2.7) "Now I am surrendered unto You. Please teach me." Unless you come to that point, there will be no teaching and there is no use of teaching.
Guest (7): What time and what energy...
Prabhupāda: That you have to see. You have to see. You have to see your time, when you are prepared to surrender. When you are prepared to surrender, as Arjuna said that "I am now confused and I surrender unto You." If you think that you are not confused, you cannot surrender, then there is no question of teaching.
Guest (2): Surrender is first condition. "You must surrender" is the first condition.
Haṁsadūta: Yes. (end)
Prabhupāda: Then go take injection. What can be done? (laughter) There is no alternative.
Devotee (1): How long will you be feeling bad from the injection?
Prabhupāda: If it remains simply for a while that is sufficient to kill you. There is no question of how long.
Devotee (1): It's just that you don't look very... You don't look like your normal self. There's no...
Prabhupāda: Sometimes they do business, simply water they inject. Yes. Simply water and take fee. They know there is no necessity of medicine; still, they will inject some water, distilled water, and take the fees. I have seen the doctors and some, I mean to say, ordinary man, illiterate. "What kind of treatment you want? Injection or medicine?" So naturally, he will say, "The best one. I want to..." "Then you have to take injection."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or both. You might get both.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen, they have spoken like that. Because the patient will think, "Oh, I take injection, I'll be very quickly cured." He will canvass like that. Because if he gives a bottle of medicine, that will not be very costly. But injection in his hand, he'll (have) at least five rupees, that much. So he'll canvass like that, "What kind of treatment you want, injection or ordinary medicine." So he'll say, "Sir, best medicine I want." "Then you take injection." That's all. It is a fact that the whole human civilization is a society of cheaters and cheated. That's all. Any field. mayaiva vyavaharite. The whole world in this Kali-yuga: mayaiva vyavaharite. Vyavaharite means ordinary dealings, there will be cheating. Ordinarily, there will be cheating. Daily affairs. Not to speak of very great things. Ordinary dealings, there will be cheating. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, mayaiva vyavahari. The sooner you get out of this scene is better. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long you live, you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa's glories, and that's all. Otherwise, you should know that this is a dangerous place. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ (SB 10.14.58). In every step there is danger.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot create your concoction! You have to abide by the orders of Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee: Then why...
Prabhupāda: There is no question of why. It is the order of Kṛṣṇa's representative. You have to abide by that. You cannot say, "Why?" Then you are not fully surrendered, as soon as you say, "Why?" Surrender means there is no "Why?" It is ordered; it has to be done. That's all. As soon as there is "Why?", there is no surrender. The basic principle is misguided. We have to follow. Just like we have got tilaka. If you say, "Why this tilaka?" There is no question of "Why?" Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthā. We have been instructed by the ācāryas; we have to follow that. That is surrender. You cannot say, "Why?" Is that clear? As soon as there is "Why?", there is no surrender.
Guest: But suppose one is engaged for his livelihood for eight hours, or ten hours for material purposes...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: How he will link with Kṛṣṇa during that period?
Prabhupāda: Well, you have got twenty-four hours. For livelihood... Your livelihood, if also... That also should be for Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa said, yat karoṣi. Yat karoṣi. That means whatever you do, your livelihood is also... Do it. You do it for Kṛṣṇa. Livelihood, just like we are also living, we are also eating, you are also eating. So what is the difference? You mold your life in such a way that that working for your livelihood would be also Kṛṣṇa's service.
Prabhupāda: In India?
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And India, there are many Kṛṣṇa conscious persons, hundred thousands, millions. India, there is no question. There is not a single Hindu who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, I understand, but this, especially, specifically...
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava. This is called Vaiṣṇava cult. The Vaiṣṇavas, as far as you know—you have been in India—there are many millions of Vaiṣṇavas.
Prof. Kotovsky: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Many millions of Vaiṣṇavas and... Just like this gentleman. He is a commander of the Air, India Air Lines. So he's not my disciple, but he's a Vaiṣṇava, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Similarly, in India millions and trillions there are, Kṛṣṇa conscious persons. And practically there is not a single... Even there are Mohammedan Kṛṣṇa conscious. In Allahabad University there is a Mohammedan professor. He's a great devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. So this is natural. It is said in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is everywhere, in everyone's heart. It has to be awakened only by this process. That's all. It is there in your heart also. It is not that it is foreign to you. It is not that. Everyone's heart, there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By this process we have to awaken that. Śravaṇādi śuddha citte karaye udaya. Udaya. You know this word udaya. Just like sun rises. It is not that sun all of a sudden comes from somewhere. It is there, but it rises in the morning. Similarly, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is everywhere, but some way or other, it is now covered. By this process it is awakened and aroused, by association.
Prabhupāda: He is doing. I am very pleased. He is prepared to do the masonry work and building work and distribution of book, accounting. In this way, we shall be always busy. Find out some work. I have no work now. Of course, the sixteen rounds must be chanted hundred percent. Rest time, simply find out where is Kṛṣṇa's work. Why sixteen rounds? It only takes two hours, you have got twenty-four hours. What you will do twenty-four hours? You cannot sleep more than six hours, seven hours, that's all. So two hours chanting and seven hours sleeping. Sleeping is a very important thing in your country, but reduce it. As much as you reduce sleeping and eating, you will become advanced.
That is the Gosvāmīs, nidrāhāra-vihāra-vijitau, conquered over sleeping, eating, and mating. Because these three, four things āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithun..., these are material life. The spiritual life means reduction of these things. When it is nil, no more sleeping, no more eating, that is spiritual..., perfection of spiritual life. So we cannot make it nil so long this body is there, but our policy should be like that. Policy should be like that. We shall not eat more, we shall not sleep more, we shall not mate more. Those who are gṛhasthas, they can have sex life only for producing children, that's all, no more. And those who are sannyāsī, brahmacārī, they have no sex life, there is no question of sex life. Sex life is prohibited. But it is a concession for them who cannot live without sex life. That is married life. Otherwise, sex life is not very important thing. Just like there are brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs, they have no sex life. Therefore, this sannyāsa, to go out of home by force, that means to avoid sex life, sannyāsa. You see? I think those who have got children, they should take sannyāsa now and preach. That is my idea. Not (indistinct) idea, because all the great sages, they waited if they are married. Just like Kapila Muni..., Kardama, Kardama Muni. Kardama Muni, he was a great yogi. So he was thinking of marrying, so Kṛṣṇa sent him good wife, Devahūti, a king's daughter. So he thought, "I was thinking of marrying, so Kṛṣṇa has sent. All right, let me marry." But he made a condition to her father that "I can accept your daughter as my wife so long she has no children. As soon as she has children, I shall go away."
Prabhupāda: So give one man from each center. It doesn't require that he is very advanced. Advancement will be done by training, by practical application in life. If you send from each center one man to India... If you can send more, that's all right. But at least one man. In India we have got many things to do. Because the business in India is important in this respect, that partly due to their subjugation by foreigners, their original culture has been killed. Just like in India, they did not know drinking tea, drinking wine, meat-eating, illicit sex. They did not know. Even fifty, a hundred years before, they did not know. These Britishers, in order to control them, very silently introduced all these things. I know in our childhood, this drinking of tea was unknown to any family. Meat-eating, there was no question. Just like in my life, I do not know what is meat-eating, do not know womanizing(?) or illicit sex life, because we are trained in that way. So due to foreign domination, they were killed; and after independence, these rascal leaders, they are killing it: "What is the wrong in meat-eating? What is the wrong in drinking?" They are canvassing: "Eat chickens, eat eggs,." This is going on. So at the present moment there is great propaganda from the side of the government and others to kill India's original culture. So when Americans go there and preach and they see, "Oh, so nice Vaiṣṇava, so nice devotee and so pure," they will become attracted, because that is their original culture. At heart they want to do that, but by artificial means they are being forced to accept something else. So when they see these foreigners and Americans so... And government is not very favorable of my movement there, because it is natural when the Americans exhibit a nice, pure Vaiṣṇava, they come attracted. Just like Calcutta and Bombay, what was there? The same Deity was and saṅkīrtana was there and I was speaking say for a half an hour. But why these forty thousand, thirty thousand people were coming? They were coming to see, "Oh, how Americans have taken to this philosophy(?)." That is their surprise. They are giving credit only for that purpose. This man also. So there is good chance of preaching in India in this respect. We want some men to preach there. It will be great work. So I think in each center, from each center you can contribute one man, and some of you leaders may go. There are already, organize. People are very much attracted.
Prabhupāda: They are wanting..., giving us money, they want to give us place, there is no scarcity of food, there is no question. But this Immigration Department, they will harass. But we have to manage somehow or other. We shall have to keep always at least 100 men in India. So how to do it? That we will consider and do it. That's all. (devotees offer obeisances) Now chalk out your plan how to preach nicely all over the world. So Viṣṇujana Maharaja, how many centers?
Viṣṇujana: Just two.
Prabhupāda: Two, that's all right. You have to do another eight. (laughter) Yes. That's nice. (break)
Devotee (1): So do you want to give (indistinct) authorization to take sannyāsa as soon as possible?
Prabhupāda: That I tell you, not immediately. But our main business is preaching. Either do it as a gṛhastha or as sannyāsī, it does not matter. This is only formality. The real work is preaching. Just like Rāmānanda Rāya was a gṛhastha and Lord Caitanya was a sannyāsī, but He was taking lesson from Rāmānanda Rāya. This is Caitanya-līlā. He is a sannyāsī and He is God Himself, He is taking lesson from a grhastha who is His disciple. So the real thing is preaching must go on sincerely. This gṛhastha, vānaprastha, these are material regulative principles. Real life is Kṛṣṇa's service. That we have to do, that's all. So whatever position is suitable for you, you accept. You remain as a gṛhastha, remain as sannyāsī, remain as brahmacārī as it becomes suitable for you, but preach. That is the main business. If you lacking in preaching and become a sannyāsī, what is the use of sannyāsa? Better... A gṛhastha is better. Just like I asked Gaurasundara to go to Hawaii. He was just a boy, but he did. Now there is center, nice. So I'm very glad. So you are also doing that. It doesn't matter whether gṛhastha. Karandhara is gṛhastha. But we have to serve Kṛṣṇa very nicely. That is our main criteria. So we have to see in what position I can serve better Kṛṣṇa. That is our policy. Otherwise, either gṛhastha or sannyāsī, there's no difference.
Prabhupāda: No. Concentrate, concentration automatically. If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and I hear, that is concentration. That is concentration. Immediately.
Sister Mary: But you can't read or talk to someone.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of reading. We are simply asking to chant. Reading will come later on. Just like a small child, he's taught... In our educational system they chant... What is that? That...? (Hindi) Pahara pahara.(?)
Indian man: Pahara. Alphabet. A.I.E.
Prabhupāda: They chant. By chanting, by hearing they learn. "A,B,C," like that. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." We did it in our childhood. One boy will chant like that. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." And we shall repeat. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." So repeating three times, I understand 2 plus 2 equal to 4.
Sister Mary: Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Revatīnandana: Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart?
Prabhupāda: Why not? Why not?
Sister Mary: It goes deeper and deeper?
Prabhupāda: They think that they have become liberated, but śāstra says "No, it is not yet liberated." Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Still there is contamination.
Revatīnandana: I see. It was just making my head spin to think of so many fallen souls. If there they also, to some extent they also fall. Here there are so many fallen souls. Then...
Prabhupāda: Ananta. You cannot say how many. Ananta. Anantāya kalpate. Ananta means unlimited number. There is no question of counting.
Śyāmasundara: Our brain is so tiny.
Revatīnandana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore acintya. Therefore acintya, inconceivable. (pause) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply try to love Him. That is perfection. That's all. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can understand. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand Himself. Yes. (laughter) He's so acintya. And what to speak of us. Therefore our only business: how to love Kṛṣṇa, how to serve Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is perfection. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand.
Revatīnandana: The more we understand, the more we can convince others.
Prabhupāda: No. Better you understand this, that you cannot understand. This understanding is better.
Revatīnandana: No, but what I said is that...
Prabhupāda: That "I cannot understand," this understanding.
Prabhupāda: So far I am personally experienced, in our childhood there were not so many problems. Now India is faced with so many problems on account of imitating Western civilization.
Guest: Not simply because of the increased population?
Prabhupāda: There is no question of increased population. This is, I say always, this is foolishness.
Guest: That's foolish?
Prabhupāda: Yes. When you say "increase of population," it is a proposal of foolish persons.
Guest: Oh, so someone, someone who's foolish...
Prabhupāda: No. Even the... Just like the birds and beast, they are also increasing their population. Yes. If you find one hole in the room, millions of ants will come out. So who is giving their food? There are millions of elephants in the forest. Who is giving their food? There are millions and trillions... There are 8,400,000 species of life. Out of that, eight million species are other than human being, and 400,000 species human being. Out of that, civilized persons are very few. And all the problems are in the civilized, so-called civilized population.
Guest: And that's because, you would say that we have the wrong...
Prabhupāda: No, I, I... We are believer in God. You see. So we know God is the original father. He is supplying maintenance for everyone. So there is no question of increasing population. If there is increase of population, God has enough resources to feed them. It is not the question of increasing population. But what is the question of demonic civilization.
Journalist (1): Well, I was going to ask you about that, civilization.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That demonic civilization is creating problems. Not the increase of population. This is not the fact. Now, so far I have studied, that in America, in Africa, in Australia, there are so much vacant places that the present population of the world, if it is increased ten times, still there is enough food...
Journalist (1): And you think there's enough food.
Prabhupāda: There is enough provisions. But we have made artificial divisions. "This is America." The Americans, they went from Europe, and they illegally occupied that place. Now they won't allow anyone to come there. Similarly, the Australians, they won't allow to come there. New Zealand, Africa. Why? Our philosophy: Everything belongs to God, and we are all sons of God. Everyone has got the right to live at the cost of God. This is our philosophy.
Journalist (1): But the values of Western civilization have made that...
Prabhupāda: Western civilization created artificial. "This is Africa, this is America, this is Europe..."
Prabhupāda: Rejects or reaction. Yes. Protest, rejection. So before this protest and rejection and reaction, if the leaders of the society become cool-headed, that "Actually God is proprietor of everything. Everyone is son of God; so everything, property of God, must be enjoyed by everyone," this if the leaders only think, then everything will be all right. There is no question of increase of population. There is enough food. In America there is so excessive food that they throw away. They throw away. And they forbid, "Don't produce more." Why? Produce more. Distribute more. That is civilization.
Journalist (1): Yes. I know you define that as civilization. It's just, I was trying to suggest that some societies, and indeed, some individual personalities, are avaricious seemingly by nature. How do you... Well, graft and greed and...
Revatīnandana: Sometimes, that is their natural position.
Prabhupāda: It is a disease. Disease. Lust and greediness. There are three qualities in the world, material world. One is called sattva-guṇa, one is called rajo-guṇa, another is called tamo-guṇa. Goodness. Rajo-guṇa is passion, and tamo-guṇa is darkness. So at the present moment these two guṇas, qualities, darkness and passion are prevalent. Goodness gone. Goodness gone. And the darkness and passion, the symptoms are greediness and lust. People are being educated to become greedy and lusty. That's all. Nobody is being educated to become good. So what is the use of these rascal universities? If they are producing greedy and lusty people, then what is the use of education? Vidyā dadāti namratā. Education means everyone should be gentleman. That is education. And if you produce lusty and greedy people there is no... This is animal education. The animals are lusty and greedy. (break)
Journalist (1): Yes, but they don't seem to be improving society. When they do come and go, society doesn't seem to improve on the way.
Prabhupāda: If you cannot... if you remain demon then there is no question of improvement. You must be prepared to become... There are two classes of men. One is called god, or demigod; another is called demon. If you continue your demonic civilization, there is no question of happiness. That Hitler will come and this will come, that will... They will fight for some time, create some disturbance and go away. Another Hitler will come, another will come, another will come. This way.
Journalist (1): There will always be unhappiness amongst...
Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is you cannot be happy and prosperous in this demonic civilization.
Journalist (1): What about the Western religions like Christianity? That's been with us now for two thousand years and doesn't seem to have helped people to become particularly...
Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand what is religion. Then you come to different types of religion. Religion means to understand God. Do you agree to that or not?
Journalist (1): So if Christian religion is teaching to understand God and to become obedient to God, then it is all right. If it is not teaching that then it is useless. Simply by stamping, "I am Christian," what do you gain by that?
Journalist (1): Well nothing, but that...
Prabhupāda: No price. Simply to become sincere.
Journalist (1): To sincerely try to find Him.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are sincerely anxious to know God, there is no difficulty. There is no difficulty. Tatra laulyam eka-mūlyam. One must be very much anxious that "I must know God." Then God is revealed. There is no question of paying so much money. Our transaction in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no monetary transaction. I did not pay anything to them, neither they are paying to me. It is a question of understanding.
Journalist (1): Yes. I'm only suggesting that you were saying already that only people who were kind or gentle perhaps would find it easy to start. There are obviously, as you were saying, lots of people who are not so kind or gentle and presumably would find it more difficult.
Prabhupāda: No. They may not be gentle, but we are gentle. Please come to us and learn. They may not be gentle. We can create gentle, provided he follows.
Journalist (1): Is that one single...
Dhanañjaya: (background talk) Śrīla Prabhupāda, (indistinct) the BBC One, Radio. They're (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: You can also note—this is common-talking of God.
Journalist (1): One last question. Is there a single, simple stitch (?) that you could give to people who don't know anything about Kṛṣṇa consciousness to help them to understand it. Is there one simple, single...
Prabhupāda: No, authority must be perfect. Then otherwise the knowledge is not perfect.
Śyāmasundara: He's saying that you don't need to necessarily have to fear the authority before you accept him.
Prabhupāda: There's no question of fearing. There's no question of fearing.
Dr. Weir: That's what I thought. You don't acce... That doesn't come in at all.
Prabhupāda: No. No. It is out of love, out of affection, the reciprocation.
Dr. Weir: Well, that's what I think very often, that it is fear that prevents people from accepting.
Prabhupāda: No. No.
Śyāmasundara: He said that sometimes someone may fear authority, that prevents them.
Prabhupāda: Of course, when you accept the... That is not fear. That is obedience, respect. Respect. That's not fear. Just like my students—they are not fearful of me. Because I came from India so what business they have got to be afraid of me. Neither I'm very..., a greater man, but they receive the philosophy, they understand the philosophy, therefore they have got respect for me. The teacher should be offered due respect. That is not fear. That is not out of fear. It's out of love.
Dr. Weir: I was saying that fear prevents it.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (2): Ātatāyinaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Who sets fire in my home and who wants to kill me, they're called ātatāyinaḥ. So they should be immediately killed. There's no question of nonviolent. And if the Vaiṣṇava is insulted, he should be killed immediately. That is also, Caitanya Mahāprabhu who advised that we should be humbler than the grass, but practically when Nityānanda Prabhu was insulted, He immediately wanted to kill Jagāi and Mādhāi. So these messages...
Guest: This has touched people.
Prabhupāda: Ha, ha.
Guest (2): This is what they're worried about. Did you know last time there were these signals practicing black-out and all that sort of thing? So now whole country is full of it.
Prabhupāda: Lord Rāmacandra's father, Daśaratha Maharaja, about him it is written, samūla vartham nava dhṛt ariṁśca(?). There are many qualifications. Out of that, one qualification was samula avartham nava dhṛt hariṁś ca.(?) Enemy will come, then he will uproot the whole generation. Samula vartham nava dhṛt hariṁś ca(?).
Guest: After the festival, Prabhupāda, are you going to Vṛndāvana?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am thinking of. I have not gone for many years.
Guest: Your room is very well kept there. I have been to that place myself.
Reporter: Sir, nobody is denying. Only we are trying to comprehend, understand.
Prabhupāda: So there is no question of comprehension. When you see a snake, call it a snake. There is no question of comprehension. This is a fan, everyone knows. When I will say, "This is a fan," everyone understands it. Law of identification. Kṛṣṇa is identifying Himself, that "This is my energy."
Reporter: Let us understand you first of all.
Prabhupāda: I have no personal presentation. I am speaking only what Kṛṣṇa... Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Here is the book, you see. This book, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, which we are presenting, and publisher is Macmillan Company, and every year they are printing at least fifty thousand copies. This is for our fifth edition. They are printing this book since 1968. '68, '69, '70, '71, that, I think, I know they have, they are fifth edition, and people are reading it, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Our..., we don't change. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the Supreme," and we are saying Kṛṣṇa is the same, Supreme. Even I do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa, I am simply presenting what is written in the Bhagavad-gītā. mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: (BG 7.7) "There is no superior element above Me." So we say, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. There is no other Supreme." Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). We say that "You follow, think of Kṛṣṇa, you become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, you offer your respect to Kṛṣṇa." So we are not (indistinct), because we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as He is speaking in the Bhagavad-gītā, that's all.
Reporter: How do you feel the modern world...
Prabhupāda: This is the feeling. You see the effect.
Prabhupāda: You should know that you are always in danger.
Reporter: Yes, sir. We agree.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Reporter: The great Einstein said the same thing when he was actually... He said there was no question...
Prabhupāda: That is our position.
Reporter: I could many times fall from here...
Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa says, "I will save you." Therefore let us go to Kṛṣṇa. Why (indistinct)?
Reporter: Changing, because he is disturbing, that's all.
Prabhupāda: Disturbing... Your mind is also disturbing always.
Reporter: Yes, yes. You are...
Prabhupāda: That is always with you. Your body disease always with you. Are you not suffering from bodily pains—"Oh, I'll (indistinct)"? Why don't you go to (indistinct) to cure your (indistinct)? (laughter). So why you do? You are already in danger. If you... Why don't you realize that point?
Reporter: That I... Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore...
Reporter: But we are talking of national problems.
Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four varṇas—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—it is created by Me." But you are trying to kill it. Why? If you try to kill Kṛṣṇa's program, then how you will be happy?
Reporter: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Huh? There is no question of preference. Kṛṣṇa's creation, it is there. You are creating (indistinct) caste, jana-saṅgaś caste. Caste is already given, in a different name. How you can make casteless? That is not possible. The whole world—"I am American," "I am Indian"—this is caste, bigger caste. Yasyātma-buddhi-kuṇa. So long you will be under the concept of this body, there must be caste division. So we have to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there will be no caste. Just like these boys, Americans, Europeans, Africans, Canadians, they have no caste, they have no nationality. They are simply for Kṛṣṇa. That is casteless.
Reporter: So are they brāhmaṇas?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Reporter: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa conscious means brāhmaṇa. Brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ.
Reporter: Not by birth?
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say I don't (indistinct) name.
Reporter: Who will name it? Who will (indistinct)?
Prabhupāda: There is no question of bhāṣya. I say take it AS IT IS. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the Supreme." Gītā gave. Why bhāṣya? Why bhāṣya? They, Kṛṣṇa, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). Kurukṣetre is still there, you know. There is a station. Why do you interpret in different way?
Reporter: Sir, it is a joy to be with you.
Prabhupāda: What is the use of interpreting Kurukṣetra as different? That is a simple waste of time.
Reporter: Are you a skeptic, sir?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Reporter: Have you been to Russia (indistinct) and (indistinct)?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Reporter: They allowed you to preach?
Prabhupāda: So why not? We are not afraid of anybody.
Reporter: Because they have their own (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: They may have, but the public is not their own. Public is different.
Prabhupāda: And that is actually happening. You have got a different body from the before. (indistinct) But everyone, your taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Kṛṣṇa says, "It doesn't matter what kind of body you have got-low born, or high born, or this born or that born. I have no such restriction. If you want Me, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7), you are all My parts and parcels. Every one of you are equally important to Me." And similarly, a devotee of Kṛṣṇa also sees. He does not see the outward cover. He sees that "Every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So he is now forgetful of his real position. So let us help him that he may come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and become successful." This is our position. There is no question of bodily barrier. Ahaituky apratihatā. Bhakti line is so nice that there is no cause and effect. Cause and effect is for this body. Karmaṇā, by my previous activity, I get a certain type, particular type of body, cause and effect. That is not applicable in devotional service. Ahaituky apratihatā. "Because I am high-born, I will have Kṛṣṇa consciousness." No. Or "Because I am low-born, I cannot have Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is not. Ahaituky. There is no such cause and effect. Apratihatā. Apratihatā, without any barrier. Everyone. The body is not barrier, we should always remember. Bodily concept of life is the consciousness of the animals, and spiritual concept of life is the consciousness of the perfect being. I am servant, eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. This we should know. We should not cry for bodily problem. We should simply try to improve our Kṛṣṇa consciousness, how we can better serve Kṛṣṇa. That is our business. Bodily comforts, this comfort, that is already settled up with this body. But we should also know that anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, if he has got any slight desire for bodily comfort, he'll get that. He'll get that. But without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if he tries, that is not possible. If I have got slight desire for my material improvement, Kṛṣṇa will satisfy you, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That means you are double way benefited.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Therefore, when He becomes a rascal, that is also good. That is Kṛṣṇa. Rascaldom is not good, but when it is practiced by Kṛṣṇa, because He's absolute good, that rascaldom is also good. That one has to understand.
Bob: Are there some people who do not find Kṛṣṇa attractive?
Prabhupāda: It is not the..., no question of some people. Kṛṣṇa cannot be compared with some people. He's God.
Bob: No, do some people find Him not attractive?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Bob: Do some people find Kṛṣṇa not attractive?
Prabhupāda: No. Anyone will find Him... Some people must be of some kind. You cite any kind of people, he'll be attracted. Who's not attracted? Just place a man, example, that "This man or this living entity is not attracted to Kṛṣṇa." Just find out.
Bob: Somebody who wishes to do things in life that he may feel are wrong, but he wishes to do to gain power or prestige or money...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bob: ...may find God unattractive. He may not find the God attractive, because God gives him guilt.
Prabhupāda: No, not the God. Because he wants to be powerful, his attraction is to become powerful. A man wants to become powerful, or rich. Is that not? But nobody is richer than Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa is attractive to him.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There are three kinds of charities: goodness, passion, and ignorance. Goodness means charity where charity must be given. Just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So if anyone gives charity to this movement, that is goodness. Because it is spreading God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is goodness. And if one gives charity for some return, that is passion. And if somebody gives in charity, he does not know what he's going to do, just like the Bowery man, that is ignorance. So our Vedic principle is, Kṛṣṇa says, that yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat kuruṣva mad-arpaṇam. That "Give Me." There is no question of knowing what is going to happen. If Kṛṣṇa takes, that is the perfection of charity. Or anyone who is representative of Kṛṣṇa, he takes, that is perfection.
Bob: And what kind of charity is it when you give to, food to somebody who is hungry?
Prabhupāda: Well, that is also depends on goodness and passion and ignorance. That example I was giving, that a doctor has forbidden that "This patient should not take any solid food." But if you make charity, "Oh, he..." And he's asking "Give me some solid..." Sometime patient asks. And if you give him solid food, then you are not doing good to him. That is ignorance.
Bob: Are the devotees beyond accumulating karma? Have they... Does a devotee, these devotees, do they feel karma? Do they work in these modes? Are they in the mode of goodness?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Bob: Are the devotees...
Prabhupāda: They are above goodness. Śuddha-sattva. Devotees are not in this material world. They're in the spiritual world. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: So just you follow in their footsteps, my other students, and it will be fulfilled, your desire. We are training to that direction, how to become purified and happy. That is our mission. We want to see everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. But people do not know how to become happy. They do not take the standard path to become happy. They manufacture their own way. That is the difficulty. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam (SB 5.5.1). This advice was given by Ṛṣabhadeva to his sons. "My dear boys, just undergo austerity," divyam, "for transcendental realization." Everyone is going austerity. This boy, I know, he had to go foreign countries to learn this commercial management. So many... So now he's good situated. But everyone has to undergo some austerity for future life. So why not take that austerity for permanent happiness? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena satt... Permanent happiness, you have to purify your existential body. This body, so long you will accept this material body, you'll have to change it. And as soon as you get a spiritual body there is no question of change. Spiritual body you have already. Simply now, due to our material contamination, we are developing material body. But if we associate with spiritual life, then we shall develop spiritual body. The same example I have several times given, that you put the iron rod with fire, it will develop to be fire. Is it not?
Bob: Put the iron rod into fire...
Prabhupāda: Yes, and it will become fire.
Bob: Yes...
Prabhupāda: Although iron rod.
Bob: Yes.
Bob: Not adequately because if I could explain, then I would be becoming liberated very fast.
Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is liberation, then how fast and slow liberation? (laughs) There is no question of liberation. It is neither fast nor slow. You first know what is liberation. If you do not know where the train is going, then what is the use of asking or understanding fast and slow? You do not know your destination. What is liberation?
Bob: Umm...
Prabhupāda: I am asking. You daily ask me; I am asking you today.
Bob: Okay, yes. (laughs) I'll think for a moment.
Śyāmasundara: Shall I turn this off, this fan? It's cool now.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. No, he'll do. Where is Nanda Kumāra? He can do. (break) ...is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, er, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The exact Sanskrit word for liberation is called mukti. So that mukti is defined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: muktir hitvānyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). One should stop doing all nonsense, and he must be situated in his original position. But this is also more embarrassing because nobody knows what is his original position. And how to act properly. Muktir hitvānyathā rūpam. People are generally acting differently. But they do not know what is differently and what is properly. So much ignorant are the modern population about their life. It is very, very awkward position. They do not know.
Bob: (break) ...who is honest?
Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is honesty. How he can be honest? If you know what is honesty, then you can become honest. But you do not know what is honesty. What is honesty? First of all explain.
Bob: Honesty is doing what you really feel is right.
Prabhupāda: Then a thief is feeling that "I must steal to provide my children. It is right." Does it mean that he's honest? Everyone thinks... The butcher, he thinks, "It is my life. I must cut throat of the animals daily." Just like that, what is that, vyādha, vyādha... When Nārada Muni met him?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is ordinary duty. If you encroach upon my freedom, I have the right to kill you. That is recommended. That is clearly stated in the śāstras. If anyone sets fire in another's house, if anyone kidnaps his wife, if anyone takes his money—so many list—he is to be killed. There is no question. He can be killed immediately. That action-reaction is going on in the material world, that is a different thing. That is karma-bandha. But in devotion, there is no karma-bandha. As Kṛṣṇa is free from all reaction, similarly Kṛṣṇa's devotee who wants to satisfy Kṛṣṇa only, he is also free from all reaction. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān nāva-manyeta karhicit (SB 11.17.27). "The ācārya is as good as I am," Kṛṣṇa says. Nāva-manyeta karhicit, "Never neglect him." Na martya-buddhyāsūyeta, "Never be envious of the ācārya, thinking him as anything of this material world." Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān (SB 11.17.27). Therefore, ācārya's position is as good as Kṛṣṇa. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair **. Ācārya is always cautious that he may not be subject to criticism. But who criticizes ācārya, he becomes immediately offender. Because he is playing the part of ācārya, he plays as far as possible. But sometimes for preaching work, he might have to do something which is not consistent. But if he is criticized, then that man who criticizes, he becomes... Of course, he must be ācārya, not a bogus. Ordinary man cannot transgress the laws, but Kṛṣṇa and His representative, ācārya, might be sometimes seen that he has transgressed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān (SB 11.17.27). Vaiṣṇavera kriyā, mudrā vijñeha nā bujhaya. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Vaiṣṇava ācārya, his activities is not understood even by the wisest man. Vaiṣṇavera kriyā, mudrā vijñeha nā bujhaya. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. Ācārya, guru, he is completely surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He has taken the shelter of Kṛṣṇa, being completely freed from all material affection. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. Everything... Everyone has got some material desire to fulfill, but a guru or ācārya has no such business. That is the symptom of ācārya. He has no more any material business. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. He has finished all business of material satisfaction. That is the symptom of ācārya. And śābde pare ca niṣṇātam. And he has taken full bath in the ocean of transcendental (indistinct). Śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam.
Yadubara: Technological advancement, scientific?
Prabhupāda: All scientific. As this is winter season, so there will be a summer season. Anyone can say that after two months there will be summer season. Similarly, these ages are also, what is called, changing. So now it is Kali-yuga. After this Kali-yuga, there will be Satya-yuga. Cycle. So everything is happening. When there is winter season, everyone feels cold. So there is no question of asking. The particular type of age and its reaction of the quality of the nature, it will be there. So as there are many Kali-yugas, so it is to be understood that many times these things happened, and many times again will happen. Seasonal flowers, fruits. In the past, there were many times all those flowers and fruits, and in the future also they will appear. What is the difficulty to understand? But if in all these changing circumstances, if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then your position becomes transcendental. You are no more subjected to all this changing process. So that opportunity is in the human life. It doesn't matter whether he is in the Kali-yuga or Satya-yuga. Because he has got this human form of life, he must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then his problem is solved. So you have to preach like this, that we are giving the best human welfare activities to utilize this human form of life.
- hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu, manuṣya-janama pāiyā,
- rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā, jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu
If we do not make our..., revive our lost relationship with Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, then the human form of life means knowingly you are drinking poison. This Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's songs, they are Vedic songs written in plain Bengali language.
Prabhupāda: That plan is Kṛṣṇa's. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: (BG 9.10) "Under My plan, under My superintendence, the nature is working. The changes of the world is going on for that reason." Hetunānena kaunteya jagad viparivartate: "All these changes are taking place on account of My supervision." So there is no question of chance. It is all planned, planned by the Supreme, daiva netreṇa, by superior arrangement.
Śyāmasundara: Doesn't necessity mean plan?
Prabhupāda: Necessity means for a foolish person like me, I want something. That is my necessity and God supplies me. "Man proposes, God disposes." And that reception, or that, my achievement, being without explained by me, I take it as a chance. Because I cannot explain it, therefore I take... Just like the same example: the flower is fructifying. We are saying because we do not see how the working is going on.
Śyāmasundara: Like you defined miracle like that before once.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is nothing like miracle. Everything is done. But it is done so subtle way that we cannot understand. We take it chance. The same example: just like a child steps before the door; it opens. He thinks, "Oh, by chance the door is opened." But it is not by chance. It is a plan.
Prabhupāda: Because the United States, they are our best customer. A businessman goes to a place... Just like you have come here. Why you have come here? Wherever there is best possibility of doing your business, there you must go. I went to United States because I know these people are not poverty-stricken. And our Indian people, they are now, they have been trained to think like that—they are poverty-stricken. Actually, they are not poverty-stricken, but the leaders have educated them that, "You are all poverty-stricken." This is India's position. So far I knew that it would not be successful in India. The government will not help. The public is educated in a different way. They are after technology. So and "familiarity breeds contempt." They say, "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? It is known to us since a long time. What effect it will have?" Many Indian students in foreign countries, they say, "Swamiji, what will this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement benefit us? We want technology." So that is the mentality of the Indians at the present moment. They have lost everything and therefore they are beggars. They have lost their own culture and therefore they are beggars. So I thought it wise that I shall go to a country where there is no poverty. They will learn. They have enough. For material enjoyment, they have got enough. The material enjoyment means money and woman. That is, in America, it is lying on the street. As much as you like, you can take. But they are disgusted with this material enjoyment. Therefore they are coming as hippies. They are coming from very rich family. Their fathers, their grandfathers, are very rich. At least they belong to the richest nation. But they are not satisfied. They are not satisfied. That is the natural sequence. The Vedānta-sūtra says, athāto brahma jijñāsā. When one has satisfied his senses sufficiently, he is no longer interested in sense gratification. Perhaps you know C.R. Das, the name of C.R. Das in Calcutta. In those days, fifty years ago he was earning fifty thousand rupees per month, but he was not satisfied. And one day he and his wife were sitting together and the wife questioned, "Why do you look so morose? You have got everything at your command. Everyone respects you. You have got money. Everything you have got, education, popularity. Still, why you are unhappy?" So he simply, by chance he saw one mendicant was passing on the street, a sādhu beggar. So he said, "I want to become like him." He said, "I want to be a mendicant like him." So there are many instances in our history. Just like Bhārata Mahārāja. He was young man, twenty-four years old, and emperor of the whole planet, young wife, king, everything. He left everything. Bhārata Mahārāja passed long, long ago. Buddha, Lord Buddha, he was also prince and very young, and he was surrounded with dancing girls. But as soon as he came out on the street, he saw one old man. "What is this?" "This is old man. Everyone has to become old like this." So he became immediately converted to a saintly person. "I must go and meditate and realize myself. Why shall I become old?" (break) I accept a new opportunities to preach it from everything. That is my philosophy. And it has become successful. If I had taken this position from India... I was trying. In India also, I tried. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are very respectable man, and people like you. You preach Bhagavad-gītā. You stand with your photograph. There is Bhagavad-gītā. Why don't you preach Bhagavad-gītā? Now politics is finished. You have got independence." But this politics is so sweet to these politicians, that until he was killed, he could not give up politics, until he was killed. He was advocating non-violence, but he was forced to die by violence. He wanted Hindu-Muslim unity. He was forced to accept partition of India. He was so much baffled, but still, he would not give up politics until he was killed. On the day of his death, in the morning, because he had so many letters, so many secretaries, so he said, "I am very much useless. I want to die." He said like that. And actually, in the evening he was killed. He was thinking that "My next solace is only death," because he could understand, "I have created simply problems. No problem I have solved. I have simply created problem." He was a sane man. He could understand it. So similarly, everyone is creating simply problems, without solving... This United Nations, what they are doing for the last twenty years? Simply creating problems. So without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no question of solving problems. That's a fact. Any sane man, any philosopher, any scientist may come. I shall convince him.
Prabhupāda: No. It is not Eastern. That is a wrong conception. God is for everybody. Eastern people, when I speak of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they say, "What is this Kṛṣṇa? We know Kṛṣṇa. What we have to learn from Swamiji?" "Familiarity breeds contempt." But in the Western countries when we speak of Kṛṣṇa, they see the philosophy. They see the science and become attracted. We, in the very beginning, we neglect: "Oh, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" Otherwise there is no question of Western or Eastern. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. Kṛṣṇa is neither Western, neither Eastern. But Eastern, our, especially Indians, they have learned to reject. That is their education: immediately reject it. This is their new culture, to reject everything. At least Jawaharlal Nehru began like that, "Anything Indian is bad. Everything London-made is good." That was his philosophy. And if one European would go to see him, immediately admission. And if an Indian goes to see him, three days he has to wait. So Jawaharlal made this impression, that "Everything Indian is bad, and anything made in London..." Because he was made in London. He was educated in London. So everything nice. Although in my household life I was doing some business in connection. I had to see Jawaharlal Nehru. So when he was common man, I went to his house. I saw it is completely Europeanized, although he is in khādi. So his father, he hated Indian medicine. You see? Motilal Nehru. A doctor, his family physician, he told me. I was doing medicine business. So I introduced one preparation, pulti(?). That was in a clay pot, anti-floristan(?) So doctor said personally, "If I prescribe your pul, jagal-pulti(?), that Motilal Nehru says, 'Doctor, in case of medicine, please do not prescribe Indian.' " You see? So this is our mentality. We have got all foreign mentality, but still, we are claiming that we have become independent. Not indepen... We are culturally conquered by the materialistic advancement of foreign countries. We have lost our own culture. This is our position.
Prabhupāda: This is... This is their atheistic theory. But our Vedic civilization is putrārthe kriyate bhārya putra-piṇḍa-prayojanam. Prayojanam. Piṇḍa, piṇḍa-dāna, offering piṇḍa by the son, is necessity, puṇyena narakāt trāyate, because the son delivers the forefathers from the hellish condition of life. There are so many plans, and they say, "Oh, there is no plan." Ignorance. We say that there is necessity of a putra, or a son. Therefore to have a son, a wife is necessary. Therefore wife is accepted. This is a plan. But they say that it is... "Whenever you feel, just like cats and dogs, sexually inclined, have sex." That's all. Where is plan? This is difference between atheist and theist. They have no plan. Sex desire is necessity of the body we have, and all of a sudden there is pregnancy. Avoid. Try to avoid pregnancy by contraceptive. Or if it takes place by chance, that's all right. There is no question of plan. These rubbish theories are going on and they are getting Nobel Prize. They are educated. They are philosopher. John Lennon is a philosopher. You see? This is going on. Ginsberg is a big man. George Harrison is a big man. You see? Eraṇḍāpi dhūmyate(?). When there is no tree, that, what is called? Castor tree, castor. Eraṇḍa. It doesn't become higher than this. "Oh, here is a big tree. Here is a big tree." Where there is no tree, that tree is big tree. So when the world is finished of all intelligent men, George Harrison is big man, that Ginsberg is big man, John Lennon is big man. According to Vedic civilization they are fourth-class men. This dramatic art was being done by a professional fourth-class man. Nāṭaka, māgadha. Just like Kṛṣṇa was taking bath with His friends, and there were some professional musicians. They were playing music. And after taking bath, all the clothes were given to them.
Prabhupāda: "Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us an authorized program for this purpose, centered around the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This chanting has so much power that it immediately attaches one to Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning of sādhana-bhakti. Somehow or other, one has to fix his mind on Kṛṣṇa. The great saint Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, although a responsible king, fixed his mind on Kṛṣṇa, and similarly anyone who tries to fix his mind in this way will very rapidly make progress in successfully reviving his original Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
"Now this sādhana-bhakti, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called vaidhī, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument. Another part of sādhana-bhakti is called rāgānuga. Rāgānuga refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Kṛṣṇa and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer ārati, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers ārati, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sādhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts-namely, regulative and spontaneous.
Prabhupāda: Better than in this way, that just like here also on this planet, those who are richer section, they particularly do not care to know what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They're proud, puffed-up for material opulence. "Ah, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let us enjoy drink." That is their position. So it is a curse for them. Their richness is a curse for them, that they cannot adore such a nice movement. The middle class section, they are being attracted. Similarly, the demigods, they have got very, very high standard of life, duration of life, beauty, opulence, facilities, so generally they forget. Not forget; they are servant. Just like government servant does not mean a devotee. So they are devotee, officially devotee. They, they offer their obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. (Sanskrit), worship by Lord Siva or Brahma, but their devotion is conditional because they're posted in such high post, so they may remain in their post. In this way, exchange. But in the human society you'll find devotees, there is no question of exchange; it is simply love. (more thunder)
Martin: These demigods are what we call angels?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: So how does science fit in with all of this?
Prabhupāda: Hm? Let him speak.
Martin: This is why I'm here. I know science...
Prabhupāda: Hm? He can...
Martin: I, I know a bit of where it's going, and I don't find it compelling, fulfilling.
Prabhupāda: You can know directly that "He is doing better than me." What is the difficulty? I can see... Just like all my disciples, they are following me. Why? Because they understand that "Our spiritual master explains about God better than us." Therefore they are surrendering. I am not bribing them. They are not fools. They have got very nice brain to act. So they accept me as the spiritual master brain because they understand it that "He can explain about God better than me." Where is the difficulty? These, all my disciples, surrenders unto me because they have found in me a better brain in explaining what is God. Direct perception. There is no question of indirect understanding. It is direct understanding. And the Vedas also advises that "Go to a better man," śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12), "one who heard better and wise from the Vedic knowledge, and brahma, as a result of it he has become fully devoted to Kṛṣṇa," brahma-niṣṭham. These are the qualifications of spiritual master. His knowledge is perfect according to the Vedic injunction, and by having that knowledge he has become a perfect devotee of the Lord. These two things are to be seen. Then he is a spiritual master.
Martin: But there are many spiritual masters in the world. Each says...
Prabhupāda: It is not the question I believe and don't believe, it is a fact. God is there—you believe or not believe—but God must be there. Your believing, not believing, it doesn't matter. If I don't believe there is no president, it does not mean there will be no president. There must be president. I do not know who is president. (indistinct) So people are in misconception that there is no God, God is dead, I am God, you are God, God is not person, so many God theories. But we have no theory, we have got a positive presentation, "Here is God." With that conviction we have to push on. So you must be prepared in that way. There will be so many questions, so many opposing elements. You have to face them by your arguments, by your knowledge. This is required. At least we must have faith in that way. We have to push on. This is the fact. We are Brahmā sampradāya, Lord Brahmā's sampradāya. So, Brahmā sampradāya, Lord Brahmā is giving. Just like last evening we were reading about Brahmā's thought. He is posing, "Yes, here is, You are God." Although He was child, "He appears to be a child, but You are God." That is Brahmā (indistinct). He is giving support on that point. So if you follow Brahmā then there is no question, here is God. And he writes in his saṁhitā,
- isvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
- sat-cid-ānanda vigrahaḥ
- anādir ādir govindaḥ
- sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam
- (Bs. 5.1)
Here is the God. And Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Mattaḥ parataraṁ nasti. (indistinct). "There is no more superior truth than Me, I am the origin of everthing." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Everything comes from Him. The Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), so Absolute Truth is there, which is the original source of everything." So, Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the original source of everything."
Prabhupāda: This building, it was a Christian church. Nobody was there. It was a barren desert. And since Kṛṣṇa has come here, you see? Same business. Is it not the fact? Same religion, the same. It was a church, but because there was no Kṛṣṇa, it was a barren land. This is a fact. Nobody was coming there; therefore they sold it off: "It is useless." That's a fact. Similarly, everyone can bring Kṛṣṇa at his home by becoming a devotee. There will be opulence. There is no question of committing suicide out of frustration. So many men, so many actors, out of frustration, committing suicide. They want to die. But if they take Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately everything will be there. Not that Kṛṣṇa was present there and not present here. He is present here. The Deity is present here. And if you think otherwise, then Kṛṣṇa will be (indistinct). If you think that Kṛṣṇa is absent, then everything is lost.
Devotee (1): (continues reading) "Actually we are neither Your wives or slaves. You never spent any money for us, yet we are simply attracted by Your glance. Now if we die without receiving Your glance, You will be responsible for our deaths. Certainly the killing of women is a great sin, and if You do not come to see us and we die, You will suffer the reactions of sin. Please come and see us. Do not think that one can be killed only by weapons. We are being killed Your absence. You should consider how You are responsible for killing women. We are always grateful to You because You have protected us many times..."
Prabhupāda: This is the feeling of separation. Such feeling everyone should... (aside:) Go on.
Prabhupāda: So in the Tenth Chapter it is said, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10). Do you know this verse? Bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam. "One who is engaged in devotional service with love and faith," buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi, "I give him intelligence." That is stated. Satata-yuktānām, "Twenty-four hours engaged with love and faith in My service, I give him intelligence, not to others." That is the qualification. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi te yena mām upayānti. What kind of intelligence? By which one can come back to home, back to Godhead. Not for material enjoyment, or bluffing or cheating. Not that intelligence. That intelligence also given by Him, indirectly. "If you want to cheat, all right, I will give you how to cheat others." That is material. In the material world, we can cheat. In the spiritual world, there is no question of cheating.
Jayatīrtha: The intelligence by which we can come to Kṛṣṇa is a special kind of intelligence.
Prabhupāda: That is perfect intelligence. Therefore we say Kṛṣṇa is the perfect teacher. In the Fifteenth Chapter, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: (BG 15.15) "I am sitting in everyone's heart. All intelligence, memory, is coming from Me, and forgetfulness also is caused by Me." So He is the supreme controller in every respect.
Jayatīrtha: Why are some people remembering and some people are forgetting Him?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayatīrtha: If Kṛṣṇa is the source of both remembrance and forgetfulness...
Prabhupāda: Yes. When Kṛṣṇa sees that "Here is a rascal, so let him forget Me." So He will give him intelligence so that he can forget Kṛṣṇa for good. Not for good—at least for some time.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Ambassador: I thought that was a very interesting definition.
Prabhupāda: No. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Ambassador: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Sūtre maṇi-gaṇā iva. Just like you have got pearl necklace, and if it is woven in a thread. So all the pearls, they are resting on that thread. There is no question of good or bad. Everything is resting in God. There is no question of good or bad. Not that all good men simply rest on that thread. Whatever we see within our experience, everything is resting on God. There is another verse in the Bhagavad-gītā, māyā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā: (BG 9.4) "In the impersonal form, I am spread all over the manifestation, cosmic manifestation, and everything is resting on Me, but it is not necessarily I am in everything." That is the statement there. The definition of God, first of all, if you take this definition, as the root of everything, as the source of everything, however you like. It is the definition given by the Vedānta-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ: (SB 1.1.1) the origin or birth or emanation of everything. Now you take anything and find out where is the original cause, then you come to God. Take anything on this table. Your self, your body. Everything you take, if you go on searching, searching, searching, what is, where is the origin, then you come to God. That is the perfect definition of God, janmādy asya yataḥ: (SB 1.1.1) the origin or source of everything. What do you think?
Ambassador: Oh, I'm very impressed.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no such thing.
Dr. Kapoor: Modern conception of speed is within the sphere of time. But our journey transcends time. Naturally it has to be faster than any journey you can imagine.
Prabhupāda: No. We speak from the śāstra. There is no question of imagination. We speak from śāstra. So we have explained, tried to explain these things in Easy Journey to Other Planets. And people are taking it very nicely. It is sold very quickly, very quickly. (break) I would like to see you that you are living in palaces.
Yaśodānandana: We want to put Kṛṣṇa in palace.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving you the opportunity, you Americans. Now you are taking Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will be the most opulent nation of the world. Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa both. You have got Lakṣmī, but if you take Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣmī will be permanent. Lakṣmī will not go. And if you reject Nārāyaṇa, then Lakṣmī will stay for some time. That is Cañcalā. Her name is Cañcalā. The British empire has failed, the Roman Empire has failed, the so many empires, the Mogul empire has failed, because they wanted Lakṣmī, not Nārāyaṇa. If you take Nārāyaṇa, your Lakṣmī will stay. Just try to convince your countrymen, just like President Nixon. It is Kṛṣṇa's desire that I was dictated to go to America, because Kṛṣṇa wants that you should take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa wants. So you have taken. Now spread. It will be grand success. And there are so many candidates, very nice. All right, go on, take... (end)
| Page Title: | There is no question (Conversations 1968 - 1972) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 01 of Feb, 2013 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=68, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 68 |