Now, the position of īśvara is supreme consciousness. Position of īśvara, or the Supreme Lord, is supreme consciousness. And the jīvas, or the living entities, being parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, he is also conscious. A living entity is also conscious. The living entity is explained as prakṛti, energy, and the material nature is also explained as prakṛti, but amongst the two, one prakṛti, the jīvas, they are conscious. The other prakṛti is not conscious. That is the difference. Therefore the jīva prakṛti is called superior because the jīvas has consciousness similar to the Lord. The Lord is supreme consciousness. One should not claim that a jīva, a living entity is also supremely conscious. No. A living being cannot be supremely conscious at any stage of his perfection. This is a misleading theory. This is misleading theory. But he is conscious. That's all. But he is not supreme conscious.
Theory (Lectures, BG)
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Lectures
Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures
Now the conscious īśvara, the supreme conscious īśvara, and difference between the supreme conscious īśvara, or the Lord, and the living being is, in the present circumstances, is like this. Consciousness, consciousness of, both of the Lord and the living entities, they are, this consciousness is transcendental. It is not that this consciousness is generated by the association of this matter. That is a mistaken idea. The theory that consciousness develops under certain circumstances of material combination is not accepted in the Bhagavad-gītā. They cannot. Consciousness may be pervertedly reflected by the cover of material circumstances, just like light reflected through a colored glass may seem according to the color. Similarly, the consciousness of Lord, it is not materially affected.
Therefore in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa... When Caitanya Mahāprabhu was talking with Rāmānanda Raya, so Caitanya Mahāprabhu inquired, "What is the actual aim of life?" Sādhya-sādhana (CC Madhya 8.118). Sādhya and sādhana. "What is the aim?" Sādhya means what for this human form of life we have got. That is called sādhya, the goal, the goal of life. And sādhana. Sādhana means the activity by which we can attain, we can achieve that goal of life. This is called sādhya-sādhana. The Darwin theory, although they are giving some idea of progressive evolution, but he does not know what is the goal of life, why this progress is there. That these rascals they do not know. Simply just imagining, taking some whims from the Padma Purāṇa, Brahmā Vaivarta Purāṇa. Aṣitiṁś catvarāṁś caiva, jīva-jātiṣu, lakṣāṁs tān jīva-jātiṣu. There are 8,400,000 types of jīva-jātis. Aṣitiṁś catvarāṁś caiva lakṣāṁs tān jīva-jātiṣu. So this is already there. Brahmādbhiḥ. In this way the living entity is wandering in the cycle of transmigration of the soul. So from this, Mr. Darwin might have taken some hints, but he could not explain properly. He could not catch up that brahmādbhiḥ, who is wandering. So it is a chaos.
So anārya, they do not know that there is life after death. They think that as soon as... (break) Big, big professors, in Europe, they say like that, "After death, everything is finished." Cārvaka Muni's theory. This kind of theory was accepted long, long ago. In the Vedic culture. Not accepted, was heard. Never it was accepted. Cārvaka theory. Cārvaka theory was atheist. He was not... (break) So his philosophy was atheistic philosophy. He used to say that bhaṣmi bhūtasya dehasya kuto punar āgamaḥ, means bodily concept of life, talking of this body, deha, that it is burned into ashes. So he used to say, "When the body is burned into ashes, then where is the chance of coming back?" That means he had no information of the soul. (break)
...accepted by the Vedic civilization. The anārya... (break) The Āryan theory is that what is next life, what is next life, progressive. That is ārya. Civilized man. They may think like that. But you are belonging to the Āryan family, Pāṇḍava family. Akīrti-karam. You are celebrated as Kṛṣṇa's friend. (break) So people will say that "Kṛṣṇa's friend, he's not fighting."
Now, "Never there was a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor these people." Now He analytically says, "I, you, and..." first person, second person, and third person. That is complete. "I, you, and others." So Kṛṣṇa says, "Never there was a time when I, you, and all these persons who have assembled in this battlefield did not exist." That means "In the past, I, you, and all of them, they individually existed." Individually. The Māyāvādī theory is that the ultimate spirit is impersonal. Then how Kṛṣṇa can say that "Never there was a time when I, you, and all these persons never existed"? That means, "I existed as individual, you existed as individual, and all these persons who are before us, they existed as individuals. Never there was a time." Now, what is your answer, Dīnadayāla? Kṛṣṇa says never we were mixed up. We are all individuals. And He says, "Never we shall remain... Never there will be time when we shall not exist." That means in the past we existed as individuals, in the present there is no doubt we are existing as individual, and in the future also, we shall continue to remain as individuals.
Devotee: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Supreme Individual Person, and Arjuna, the Lord's eternal associate, and all the kings assembled there are individual eternal persons. It is not that they did not exist as individuals in the past, and it is not that they will not remain as eternal persons. Their individuality existed in the past and their individuality will continue in the future without interruption. Therefore there is no cause for lamentation for any one of the individual living entities. The Māyāvādī or impersonal theory that after liberation the individual soul, separate on account of māyā or illusion, will merge into the impersonal Brahman without individual existence..."
Prabhupāda: Now, the Māyāvādī says that this individuality is māyā. So their conception is that spirit, the whole spirit is a lump. Their theory is ghaṭākāśa poṭākāśa. Ghaṭākāśa poṭākāśa means... Just like sky. The sky is an expansion, impersonal expansion. So in a pot, in a waterpot, in a pitcher that is closed... Now, within the pitcher, there is also sky, a small sky. Now as soon as the pitcher is broken, the outside, the bigger sky, and the small sky within the pitcher mixes. That is Māyāvāda theory. But this analogy cannot be applied. Analogy means points of similarity. That is the law of analogy. The sky cannot be compared... The small sky within the pitcher cannot be compared with the living entity. It is material, matter.
So if the points of similarity differ, then there is no analogy. That is the law of analogy. So you cannot analogize with matter and spirit. Therefore this analogy is fallacious. Ghaṭākāśa poṭākāśa. Then another evidence is in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says that mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta (BG 15.7). "This individual souls, they are My part and parcel." Jīva-loke sanātanaḥ. And they are eternal. That means eternally they are part and parcel. Then when... How this Māyāvāda theory can be supported, that due to māyā, being covered by māyā, they are now appearing individual, separate, but when the covering of māyā will be taken away, they will mix up just like the small sky within the pitcher and the big sky outside mixes? So this analogy is fallacious from logical point of view, as well as from authentic Vedic point of view. They are eternally fragments. There are many other evidences from Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā says that spirit cannot be fragmented. So if you say that by covering of māyā the spirit has become fragment, that is not possible.
the examination will get the title Bhakti-śāstrī. Have you distributed that... Yes. Go on.
Devotee: "Nor is the theory that we only think of individuality in the conditioned state supported herein. Kṛṣṇa clearly says that in the future also the individuality of the Lord and others as it is..."
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa never says that after liberation these individual souls will mix up with the Supreme Soul. Kṛṣṇa never says in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Devotee: "Kṛṣṇa clearly says that in the future also the individuality of the Lord and others, as it is confirmed in the Upaniṣads, will continue eternally. This statement of Kṛṣṇa is authoritative."
Prabhupāda: Yes, Upaniṣad says nityo nityānām. Now, nitya means eternal, and the Supreme Lord is the supreme eternal, and we individual souls, we are also many eternals. So He is the leader eternal. Eko bahūnām... How He is leader? Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That one, singular number eternal, person, He is supplying all the needs of other eternals. These things are clearly said in the Vedas. And actually we are experiencing.
Yes. If the Māyāvādī philosopher says that this statement of Kṛṣṇa is in māyā, that "He says that 'Everyone was individual in the past.' No, in the past everyone was one, lump sum, homogeneous. By māyā, we have become individual." If the Māyāvādī says like that, then Kṛṣṇa becomes one of the conditioned souls. He does not... He loses His authority. Because conditioned soul cannot give you the truth. I am conditioned soul. I cannot say something which is absolute. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Absolute. So if the Māyāvādī theory is accepted, then Kṛṣṇa's theory has to be rejected. If Kṛṣṇa is rejected, then there is no need of reading Kṛṣṇa's book, Bhagavad-gītā. It is useless, waste of time. If He's a conditioned soul like us... Because we cannot take any instruction from a conditioned soul. So the spiritual master, even if you take that he is conditioned soul, but he does not speak anything from his own side. He speaks from Kṛṣṇa's side.
Man (4): I've read about Hubbard's Scientology and a lot of the writings that Hubbard writes sound a lot like the theory of Hare Kṛṣṇa. Is there any parallel at all between the two, or have you taken any opinion on side (?) both your cases? You know anything about that?
Madhudviṣa: He is saying is there any similarities between the philosophy of Scientology...
Prabhupāda: What is that Scientology? I do not know. (laughter, applause) I do not know. Can you explain what is this Scientology?
Man (4): It's just a teaching that's supposed to be fairly widespread. (laughter)
Madhudviṣa: Yes?
Man (5): Can you give any explanation about the spiritual, around the earth. If they are all luminous?
Madhudviṣa: He wants to know something about psychic phenomena.
Prabhupāda: Psychic phenomena is the subtle materialism. There are two material conditions: one gross condition, one subtle condition. Gross condition is created by the five elements—earth, water, fire, air, and ether. And the subtle elements are mind, intelligence and ego, false ego. So all these eight elements, they are material. One section is gross, and another section is subtle. So the psychology means the subtle material elements. It is material; it is not spiritual. It is subtle.
Just like water. You keep in different pots. In different pots you keep water. So the water takes the shape of the pot, the bowl, round bowl. You keep water. The water takes the shape of round. So similarly, there are thousands of, or millions of, waterpots, and suppose all the waters are mixed up. Then there is no distinction. Just like they were in the pots. So their theory is that when a soul is liberated then the, that it mixes up with the Supersoul. Just like a drop water taken from the sea water and again put it into the sea, it mixes up. It loses its identity.
So that is one theory. But here Lord Kṛṣṇa says that "Myself, yourself, and all others who have come here..." There were about sixty millions of people assembled in that fight. It was not a small fight. In India there was... Of course, that was also great world, world war. Just like we had experience... I think in the First World War none of you had seen because you were all young men. And we were child. When the First World War was declared, we were all boys, schoolchildren. My age was at that time fourteen years old, in 1914, when there was fight declared between Germany and Belgium.
So there were a great assembly of all worldly kings. Now, Kṛṣṇa says that "Either Myself, either yourself, or these persons who have assembled here, they are individual. They were individuals in the past, they are now individuals, and they will continue to be individual even after annihilation of this body." Now, how you'll adjust? There are two theories, that after liberation all these souls, they become one. Just like all drops of water, if you put into the sea, they become one entity. There is no distinction. And the Lord Kṛṣṇa says that "No, they keep their individuality. They do not mix." Now we are supposed... We are all laymen. We are ignorant, what is actually position, what is the actual position. But we have got our discretion also. Just like every one of you has some knowledge in the history. Now, in the history in the past... Suppose you are now thirty years old or thirty-five years old, and suppose two hundred years before, the history which you read, you find that all people were individuals. And at the present you are experiencing that all individual, they are. All living entities—either human being, or animals or birds, or anywhere—you can see that they are individual. Then why should you not believe that in future they will remain individual? Do you follow? In the past they were individuals, in the present they are individuals, and why not in future they'll remain individuals? It is naturally concluded that they will continue to be individuals. Even we do not have any sufficient knowledge in either of these two theories, mixing up or keeping individual, but by our own small reasoning we can understand that in the future history we have information that there were individual persons. At the present moment also, we are seeing that there are individual persons.
So which of them I shall accept? This is ni... This is all right, or that is all right? So therefore it is said that smṛtayo vibhinnāḥ. If you consult different scriptures, you'll find different contradictory statements. Your scripture may be different from my scripture. And nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. If you consult philosophers, you'll find one philosopher is differing from another philosopher. A big philosopher means who has cut down other philosophers and put up his own theory, "This is true." This is going on. So tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ smṛtayo vibhinnā nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. Then how to conclude what is the right path? I cannot establish it by my imperfect arguments. I cannot consult even the scriptures. Neither I can take real instruction from different philosophers. Then what, what is the way of having the real thing? So it says that dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām: "The truth of religiosity is very confidential, very secret." So how to know it? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ: (CC Madhya 17.186) "We have simply to see that great personalities, as they have taken up, we have to follow. That's all."
So the Māyāvādī theory that impersonal, how it stands? Neither God is impersonal, nor the living entities are impersonal. Every one of us—person. The difference between the Supreme Person and our personality is that He is all-powerful; we are limited. Our power is limited. Everything, ours, limited. Aṇu, vibhu. He is great; we are small. He is infinite; we are infinitesimal, very small. Otherwise, in all other qualities, we are one. There is no difference. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). In eternity, in blissfulness, and in knowledge. Everything is there. But Kṛṣṇa's knowledge and our knowledge, different. Just like Kṛṣṇa said, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). "I spoke this yoga system, Bhagavad-gītā, long, long ago to the sun-god." Vivasvān manave prāha. "And the sun-god explained it to his son, Manu; and Manu again, in his turn, he explained to his son, Ikṣvāku. In this way, this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā is coming by the disciplic succession."
"The same Vedic truth given to Arjuna is given to all persons in the world who pose themselves as very learned but factually have but a poor fund of knowledge." This is poor fund of knowledge that "God and I, we one. Now, because we are illusioned, we are thinking that God is different from me, but when the illusion is over, then I and God become one." This is Māyāvādī theory, monism. But actually this is not clear knowledge. God is..., God is always distinct from me. He's the Supreme. It is not that we are equal to God. We are equal to God in quality, not in quantity. Therefore those who are thinking that they are equal to God in every respect, they are illusioned. Māyā, māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ. They have been called, they have been designated by Kṛṣṇa as māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ. Although they appear to be very learned scholars, but the essence of the knowledge is taken away by māyā.
There cannot be overpopulation, because there are already ananta living entities, what to speaking of overpopulation? It is already there, you cannot count. There is no question of... There are already overpopulation. And they can be provided by Kṛṣṇa. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. Kṛṣṇa is not limited; He is also unlimited. He can provide unlimited living entities. There is no scarcity of food. So this theory that overpopulation is nonsense. It is also nonsense. There cannot be overpopulation. But there is restriction, by nature. Nature will restrict production of food if there are demons. Nature will not provide the demons. You'll find in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Fourth Canto, nature is quite prepared to supply all the foods, but as soon as there are number of demons, because the whole plan is to correct. Just like the criminals are sent to the prison house for being corrected so that they may not again commit criminals. That is the purpose of... Similarly, we are all criminals who are in this material world. The purpose is to be corrected. We wanted to imitate Kṛṣṇa, to become Kṛṣṇa, and therefore we violated the orders of Kṛṣṇa, and that criminality means material life.
So, then Kṛṣṇa is defective. If Kṛṣṇa says, "You, Me, all others," so it is not one. It is not homogeneous. We are all individuals. "You are individual, I am individual, and all the kings and soldiers, they are all individuals." So the Māyāvādī theory that after liberation everyone becomes one, one lump sum... What is called? Homogeneous spirit. No. Then Kṛṣṇa is false. The Māyāvādī theory accepted, that we become one lump sum, then Kṛṣṇa's theory... Not theory, Kṛṣṇa's actual knowledge. Then it becomes false. And if Kṛṣṇa speaks false, something defective, then where is the use of reading Bhagavad-gītā? Why should we read Bhagavad-gītā which is spoken by a person who is defective? No. That's not... What Kṛṣṇa is speaking, that is fact. Otherwise, why Bhagavad-gītā is given so importance? So, so Māyāvādī philosophers, they try to interpret in a different way, " 'I' means this, 'you' means that," some... (end)
Two negatives makes one positive. That means "In the future also we shall exist as individual." Na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ sarve, "all of us." "All" means Kṛṣṇa says, "I, you, and all the other peoples, kings, and soldiers, we shall remain as individual." Then where is oneness? This Māyāvādī theory that after liberation we shall all become one with God, that is not mentioned here. This is bogus theory. Real, that we remain individual. So long we are not in a position to act means so long... Just like ghost. Ghost is also individual. But because the ghost does not get this material body they are invisible. They create disturbance for want of this body. Those who have got experience of ghost in some house, the ghost is there, he is individual soul, but because he hasn't got this material covering, that is a punishment. For the most sinful person, that is a punishment, that he does not get this body, although he wants this body, because for enjoyment we want this body. Body is the combination of senses, instrument. If I want to touch you I require hand, and through hand I'll feel the pleasure of touching you. So the ghost wants to touch, but he hasn't got the instrument. That is ghost. But there are ghost. It is not fictitious. It is a fact. Ghost means without this material body.
So this is going on. They are simply cheating public. They have no sufficient knowledge, still they are trying to speak of some subject of which they have no sufficient knowledge. Besides that, the scientist... One scientist proposes, theorizes something today and another scientist makes this proposition, this theory, null and void and he speaks something else. That is also due to the imperfect of senses. So that is called mistake or illusion. Mistake means calculation, mathematical calculation. Two plus two equal to four, but sometimes by mistake we may put three or five. That is called mistake. And illusion, to accept something for something. Just like we are accepting. When somebody inquires, "who are you?" You just give identification of your body: "I am such and such, I am an American, I am born of such father and mother." But this body is not yourself, you are spirit soul. Therefore, it is called illusion. And because we are standing on the platform of illusion, there is mistake, there is cheating, and the senses are imperfect. This is the position.
Dehinaḥ, of the living soul, the body is changing. Similarly, after death, after so-called death... Because there is no death. After stoppage of the function of this gross body, the soul is transferred to another gross body. This statement we get from Bhagavad-gītā. And if we accept this statement, "This is fact," then our spiritual life immediately begins. Without this understanding, there is no question of spiritual understanding. Everything vague, simply mental speculation, "maybe," "perhaps." These theories are being forwarded by so-called scientists and philosophers. But we don't accept such things as "perhaps," "maybe." No. We accept what is fact. It is not a question of belief; it is a question of fact. So this is the fact.
Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. There are 8,400,000 forms of body, and the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another, one body to another, one body to another. This is the evolution. Darwin's evolution theory is misplaced. Here is real... As it is stated in the Padma Purāṇa: asatiṁś cāturaṁś caiva lakṣams tān jīva-jātiṣu. The evolutionary theory is there in the Padma Purāṇa. Asatiṁś cāturaṁś caiva lakṣaṁs tān jīva-jātiṣu. Jīva-jāti. There are different forms of living entities, and they are 8,400,000. That is clearly stated. So one has to pass through from the beginning. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Nine hundred thousand species of aquatics. So in this way, when we come to the human form of body, it is very rarely obtained. Mānuṣaṁ durlabhaṁ janma. It is very rarely obtained. Therefore, it should be very properly utilized. In the human form of life one should try to understand that he's not this body. He must know that "I am Brahman. I am spirit soul, part and parcel of God." That is the beginning of teaching of Bhagavad-gītā.
So to become dhīra means not to use this, I mean to say, very important, very useful body, human body, to pass as cats and dogs. That is very dangerous. It is a great loss. Prahlāda Mahārāja instructed this. Durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma. We have to (be) very, mean, intelligent to understand that "I have got this body. Must be after many, many births." That is the evolutionary theory. I can understand that this tree... That is also a living being, but it is standing there for thousands of years. Thousands of years, they are standing. So many Napoleons, so many Kaisers, so many Hitlers came and gone, but the tree is standing. That is a punishment. But that is also a living being. It is also growing. As your body is growing or changing, that body's also growing and changing, unless you pour water on the root of the tree, no eating, then it will die. Similarly, if you don't eat, you'll die. You'll die. There is no difference. It is the simply different methods of living. That's all. The cats and dogs living in a certain method. The human being is living in a certain method. The trees are living in a certain method. The fish in the waters, they are living in the certain method. But the eating, sleeping, mating, defending is there. Is there. So according to the different bodies, they're living differently.
So all living entities, as Kṛṣṇa said, that "They existed," so existed in a different body. Now existing in a different body. This is called evolution or transmigration. This is... The evolution... Evolution theory is there. Not theory, fact. In the Padma Purāṇa... It is not Darwin's invention. There is... Asatiṁ caturaṁ caiva jīva-jātiṣu. As clearly stated, the evolution theory is, evolution fact is there are 8,400,000 different species of life, and the living entity passing, transmigrating, from one, another, one, another.
So this is evolution. This evolution theory... It is not theory; it is fact, stated in the Vedic literature, Padma Purāṇa, how we have passed through so many bodies, and ultimately we have got this civilized, human form of body. We have to pass through 900,000 forms of aquatic bodies within the water. Then, gradually, we come to the form of trees and plants. There are 2,000,000 varieties. Then we get the bodies of the insect. There are 900,000 forms of body. Then we enter into the species of birds, 1,000,000 forms of body. Then, after bird's body, there are 3,000,000 different varieties of beast body. Then, after this period, we become human body, but there are 400,000 species of human body. And thus we get this nice human form of body with good brain and good consciousness. So it should be utilized properly. That... By the laws of nature, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). This is the law of nature. Gradually we develop different types of body and different types of consciousness. So when we come finally to God consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is the perfection of life.
Now, this consciousness, the Māyāvādī philosopher says, "Yes, I am consciousness. The same theory. This small consciousness, but as soon as I break this body, the small consciousness will mix up with the supreme consciousness." That is their theory. But anyway, whatever that theory may be, at least in my present condition, I, my consciousness, is limited within this body. I cannot say that I am superconscious. Had I been superconscious, then the pains and pleasure going on (in) your body I would have felt. But because I am limited within this body, therefore the pains and pleasure of my body I can understand. Therefore my consciousness is limited. You cannot argue that you are the same... That will be explained. Kṛṣṇa says in the Thirteenth Chapter that kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). Kṣetra-jña, the soul, and, is within this body. Therefore soul is called kṣetra-jña. Kṣetra-jña means "one who knows about this body." I am conscious about my this body. You are conscious about your body. But Kṛṣṇa is conscious of your body and my body and everyone's body. Therefore He's also kṣetra-jña, but He's kṣetra-jña, He's Supersoul. Just the same example. Just like the sun, during meridian, is on your head. At 5,000 miles, you ask your friend "Where is the sun?" He'll also say, "It is on my head."
You can simply understand that it is of the same quality, namely, as the sunshine has light and heat, the sun globe has also light and heat. So although the quality is the same, the quantity is different. The temperature in the sun globe is very, very high. Similarly, tattva, the Absolute Truth, the first realization is impersonal Brahman. That can be realized by ordinary man. Not ordinary man, a little advanced can understand what is the sunshine. But to have experience of the sunshine, we can put some theories, but directly it cannot be experienced. So again, within the sun globe there is the predominating deity, sun-god. Actually the heat and light is coming from the body of the sun-god. So those who are expert in studying the sun, the sun-god, the sun globe and the sunshine—this is an example—similarly, there is possibility of understanding God, His Paramātmā feature, all-pervading feature, as well as His Brahman feature.
This rascal philosophy has killed the whole world, atheism. So many incarnation, gods, all false theories only. This is going on. So many gurus, all rascals. All rascals. Take it for granted. Anyone who is speaking against the principle of Bhagavad-gītā, he's a rascal number one. That's all. Don't give any credit. Tell him on the face "Whether you accept Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead?" If he says, "No," "Then you are rascal." That's all. There is no exemption. At least you must know that here is a rascal. Because God is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Accepted by all ācāryas, by all Vedic śāstra. And when He was present Himself, He proved Himself that He's God. Nobody was equal to Kṛṣṇa when He was personally present. Throughout the whole history of Mahābhārata you can see.
Now Kṛṣṇa here also says ukta. Ukta means "it is said." Not that dogmatically I am speaking, I am putting up some theory. No. It is said. It is already settled, it is already ascertained. And in the Vedic literature, by authorities it is so said. This is the way of presenting evidence. Even Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He does not theorize. He said, "It is said," authorized. Anāśino 'prameyasya. Anāśinaḥ. Nāśinaḥ means destructible, and anāśinaḥ means not destructible. Śarīriṇaḥ, the soul, anāśinaḥ, it will never be destroyed. And aprameyasya. Aprameyasya, immeasurable. It cannot be measured also. In the Vedic literature the measurement is described there, but you cannot measure it. Anything, so many things are described in the Vedic literature. So you are so advanced in scientific knowledge, but neither you can say that it is not fact. Neither you can estimate. Just like in the Padma Purāṇa, the varieties of living entities are expressed: jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. The aquatic animals or living entities are nine hundred thousand. So you cannot say, "No, it is not nine hundred thousand. It is less or more." It is not possible for you to see within the water how many varieties of. You might have, the biologists, they might have experimented, but it is not possible to see nine hundred thousand forms. That is not possible. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati.
Parīkṣit Mahārāja. He said that God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, cannot be understood by the animal killer. Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānāt. You'll find those who are animal killers, the so-called Christians and Mohammedans, they cannot understand. They (are) simply fanatics. Cannot understand what is soul, what is God. They have got some theories and they are thinking we are religionists. What is sin, what is pious activities, these things are not understood by them because they are animal killers. It is not possible. Therefore Lord Buddha propagated ahiṁsā. Ahiṁsā. Because he saw the whole human race is going to hell by this animal killing. "Let me stop them so that they may, in future, they may become sober." Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita: Two sides. First of all he was very much compassionate, that poor animals, they are being killed. And another side, he saw "The whole human race is going to hell. So let me do something." Therefore he had to deny the existence of the soul because their brain will not tolerate such things. Therefore he did not say anything about the soul or God. He said that "You stop animal killing." If I pinch you, you feel pain. So why should you give pain to others? Never mind he has no soul; that's all right. He did not talk anything about soul. So these people say the animals have no soul. But that's all right, but he's feeling pain when you are killing the animal. So you also feel pain. So why should you give pain to others? That is Lord Buddha's theory. Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. He denied that: "I don't accept Vedas."
These are the statements of Kṛṣṇa. Now the constitution of the soul... So far materialists are concerned, they cannot even find out where is the soul. Therefore there are so many theories. Actually, they cannot find out where the soul is situated because material senses cannot approach. The measurement of the soul is stated in the Vedic literature as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. So there is no possibility of understanding what is soul by material scientists. The only process is to take it from higher authorities like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa here gives definition of the soul. So we have to accept it. And not blindly accept it, but try to understand as far as possible with your arguments and reason, but this is the actual fact. What is that statement? The soul, definition of soul, Kṛṣṇa is giving?
This is the distinction of the soul being spirit. You take anything of this material world, they can be burned. It is the question of temperature only. Even iron is being burned, any metal, any hard thing, stone is being burned, everything is being burned. But here it is said that soul cannot be burned. So does it mean that it is stronger than iron and stone? But it is very fragmental, minute, atomic portion. But it cannot be burned. So all these symptoms... Cannot be burned, cannot be cut into pieces. So here the Māyāvādī theory will fail. If the soul cannot be cut into pieces, then how the soul has become enwrapped with māyā? They give the example, ghaṭākāśa-poṭākāśa. Of course, they say that it is covered, it is not cut into pieces. But the soul is separated, I mean to say, a separate identity constitutionally.
Unbreakable, again. The Māyāvādī theory that it has broken parts by māyā. No. Unbreakable. That means eternally we are individual, separated. Just like we are sitting, all individual. This is our eternal position. Kṛṣṇa is confirming that "Arjuna, yourself, Myself, and all these people who are assembled here, they're all individuals. They existed in the past, and they'll continue to exist in the future." So this is a confirmed truth, that every living entity is individual and Kṛṣṇa is also individual. And that is also stated in the Vedas. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is the chief of all these individual living entities. That is the difference. He is the chief. Just like you have accept me the chief of your group. But that does not mean in all other respects we are all one. You have got the same feeling; I have got the same feeling. You have selected me, or I have got some extraordinary qualification, I am controlling you.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unchangeable means... The Māyāvāda theory is that "Now I am finite. I shall become infinite." That's wrong. How you can be? Eternal. Eternally infinite. You'll eternally remain infinite. You cannot be equal with God, the infinite. That is not possible. You'll have to remain as subordinate.
Viṣṇujana: "The Supreme Soul is infinite and the atomic soul is infinitesimal. Therefore the infinitesimal soul being unchangeable can never become equal to the infinite soul."
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is a common sense argument. How it can be? If it is equal to the infinite, how he has become finite? They cannot answer. The impersonalists cannot answer. How he has become finite? They'll simply answer, "It is māyā." Then māyā is greater than the infinite? Then māyā becomes greater than the infinite. Then that God is no more infinite because māyā covers the Supreme, so how He is infinite? He becomes finite? The common sense is that finite Brahman is covered by māyā. Not the infinite. Therefore duality. Finite and infinite living entities. Kṛṣṇa is infinite, and the ordinary living entities are finite.
That is not the purport. Killing is prohibited. But when we see that a brāhmaṇa is killing one animal in the sacrifice, it is not killing. Therefore we have to see with the eyes of Vedic knowledge. Not with these eyes. What is the value of these eyes? It has no value. We are very much proud: "Can you show me?" What is value of your seeing? Even if I show you, the value of your seeing power is nil. It sees only under certain conditions. That's all. If there is a light, you can see. What is the value of your eyes? Therefore the real seeing is through Vedic knowledge. That is seeing. Śāstra-cakṣus. Real knowledge, real seeing power, should be through the śāstras. And śāstra means infallible, not theory. Not theory. Just like a conditioned soul writes some book on some thesis. What is the value of it? It has no value. Because the man who is putting forward the thesis, he is blind. He's imperfect. So how you can get perfect knowledge from him?
There is no difficulty. But the so-called scientists, philosophers, educationists, they will not believe that there is soul. They, they'll not believe. They'll simply argue. They cannot establish the real fact, how this body is moving. There are so many theories. But, except, accept, they will not accept that the..., actually, because the soul is within this body, everything is happening. And without the soul, immediately this body, so nice body of such and such great personality, becomes a lump of matter. Not that the body is working... They are finding out the brain substance, how it is working. But the brain substance is already there in the dead body. Why don't you work with that? No. That is not fact. The fact is the brain substance is a machine, but the man, or the person, is within the body. He's working with the brain substance. Just like you have got a nice machine. But it must be worked by somebody. At the present moment, the computer is a very subtle machine. But this computer cannot work without an experienced mechanic who pushes the button and it works. These people, they cannot understand that without spiritual touch, matter cannot work.
So brain may be a, a combination of nice matter, but it cannot work without the spirit soul. We should clearly understand this. And if we accept this body as the everything... Just like the other day, I told you, I met one big professor, Russian professor, in Moscow. He said, "Swamiji, after this body is finished, everything's finished." This is the atheistic theory. This is not new. In India there are many atheists, followers of Cārvāka. According to Cārvāka Muni, his theory is: bhasmi bhūtasya dehasya punaḥ kutaḥ punar āgamano bhavet ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet yāvad jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet. Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā pibet. "Just live joyfully, merrily..." "No, I have no money." "All right. Take, beg, borrow and steal. Some way or other, get money." That is going on. "Get money some way or other and live." That is Cārvāka theory. Hedonism. "Get money..." So this is going, this civilization is going on. "Somehow or other, get money." Because without money, you cannot get woman, you cannot get nice palatable food, nice dress, nice apartment, nice car. "So bring money, somehow or other." Everyone is coming forward as very philanthropist leader. The aim is how to get money. That's all. That is their philanthropism. They, they speak so many nonsense things, but the real idea is how to get money.
So this Māyāvādī theory cannot stand here if we accept the Bhagavad-gītā's statement. Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi. It is not divided by some means. No. It is already divided. It is already divided. Neither the small piece of soul or the big piece of soul you can divide.
- nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi
- nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ
- na cainaṁ kledayanty āpo
- na śoṣayati mārutaḥ
Air... There are earth, water, fire, air. So none of these material things can act on the soul. It is not that because air dries up everything, anything... Big, big ocean is dried up by evaporation. Big, big river, big, big lakes are evaporated, but soul cannot be evaporated. Nainaṁ śoṣayati mārutaḥ. This is the distinction. The air can evaporate a big ocean. Gradually, it is being done. As the days will go on, the sea water will be evaporated, and at the end there will be no water. These are the statements. Towards destruction, there will be no water. Just like now it is already begun. There is scarcity of water, no rainfall. So we see that the lakes and rivers and other water reservoirs, they are becoming dried up. Śyāmasundara, you were telling that river?
So here we are getting information that acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam akledyo 'śoṣya eva ca, nityaḥ sarva-gataḥ. This is another qualification of the living entities: sarva-gataḥ, "everywhere." The rascal scientist says there is no living entity in the moon planet or sun planet. This is rascaldom. There is. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says sarva-gataḥ? Any, everywhere there is living entities. This is a false theory. We can see practically. We see there are living entities in the water. There are living entities in the air. There is living entities within the earth. There is living entities in so many ways. Why not in other planets? Where is the difference between this planet and that planet? This is also made of five elements. And that is also meant of, made of five elements. Here, the earthly element is very prominent. And the sun globe, the fire element is very prominent. So this material world is made of these five elements.
So Vyāsadeva, by his meditation, saw the Supreme Person and māyā also. Māyā is on the backside. Māyā cannot come in the front side. So Kṛṣṇa is never covered by māyā. It is our eyes which covered by māyā. So we, the fragments of Kṛṣṇa, mamaivāṁśaḥ, we are covered by māyā, not Kṛṣṇa. The theory that Kṛṣṇa becomes covered, that is nonsense. How Kṛṣṇa can be covered? Kṛṣṇa cannot be covered. He is the controller of the māyā. And we are controlled by the māyā. That is the difference. Kṛṣṇa, māyādhīśa, and we are māyādhīna. Adhīna. We can become free. Exactly the same example that when our eyes are covered by the cloud, we cannot see the sun, although the sun is there.
So Cārvāka Muni recommended, "Now eat ghee and enjoy life." Kacuri, samosā, all made of ghee preparation. Then "I have no money, sir. Where shall I get ghee?" Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā. "Beg, borrow, steal, get ghee." Somehow or other, black market, white market, any way. Bring money and ghee, that's all. Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet. "Eat as much possible ghee." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet yāvād jīvet sukham. Jīvet. Sukhaṁ jīvet. "So long you live, live merrily, very nicely." That is the theory of all the European philosophers. Live merrily. But the philosopher at the end becomes paralyzed. His merriness is finished. Who is that philosopher has become paralyzed? So they make all these theories. Not only European philosophers, another philosopher in India, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he is now brain paralyzed.
So they do not understand that there is a controller. We may theorize and so many ways of our happy life. But you cannot be happy, sir, so long you have got this material body. That's a fact.
All of a sudden the man dies, and he is sure to die, but they cannot simply observe the symptoms. They cannot observe what is that thing which is gone now. They cannot say that. Neither it is possible for them to say. But their theory that combination of matter makes symptoms of life possible, they should prove it by experiment. Then it is complete science. Observation and experiment. But there is no such experiment till now. You trace out the history of the human society. Of course, in the modern world they cannot trace out chronological history more than three thousand years. That's all. But we can give account for many millions and millions of years. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). "I spoke this philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god". Now just imagine how many years, millions of years. So the modern theory that ten thousand years ago there was no human civilization, how we can adjust things? The Battle of Kurukṣetra was fought five thousand years ago. Before that, hundreds of thousands year ago there was another battle which is called fight between Rāma and Rāvaṇa. And there are so many instances in the Vedic literature. We can offer history of the world, of the universe, from millions and millions of years ago. But these people with petty knowledge for three thousand years or four thousand years, they are thinking they have advanced.
So this theory was current in those days also; otherwise why Kṛṣṇa is making reference to this theory? So all kinds of theories are existent since the beginning of this creation. But sometimes some theory is very prominent, sometimes some theory is not prominent. That's all. So this atheistic theory, that combination of matter... Just like you combine some chemicals and you get some product, similarly the modern scientist says that carbon dioxide, soda bicarb—they name so many chemicals—is the combination of this body. That is chemical analysis of this body. But can you produce? You have got all the chemicals. Can you produce even the body of an ant by combination of carbon dioxide, soda bicarb and so many chemicals? Just produce, not human being, just produce even a small ant which is moving. Combine. That you cannot. So such theories, at least we cannot accept. But Kṛṣṇa is giving argument to Arjuna, "If you think that this is an accidental combination of several chemicals, then where there is cause of lamentation?" Suppose in a bottle you have got certain combination of chemicals. If that bottle is broken, is there any cause of lamentation? All right, we shall get another bottle of this chemical combination.
The modern theories, they are exactly like that. They want to... Yes, our Kārttikeya was telling that the boys, the young boys and girls, they put forward this theory that "Our parents have made the position of the world so unsafe. So we do not know when we shall, our this body will be finished. So better to enjoy this bodily sense gratification as far as possible quickly." Is not that theory you were telling me? Huh? Is it a fact they are thinking like that? Oh, now, see this nonsense. Now supposing there is soul... And why not suppose? Because experimentally you have not proved that by chemical combination you can produce such moving things.
Devotee: "According to the vaibhāṣika philosophy, the so-called soul or ātmā vanishes along with the deterioration of the body. So, in any case, whether Arjuna accepted the Vedic conclusion that there is an atomic soul or whether he did not believe in the existence of the soul, he had no reason for lamenting. According to this theory, since there are so many entities generating out of matter every moment and so many of them are being vanquished at every moment, there is no need to grieve for such an incidence."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Material creation, just like bubbles in the ocean. You have seen standing on the bank of the Pacific Ocean, oh, so many thousands of bubbles created in a second, and again thousands of bubbles gone, in a second. Now, who is crying there? "Oh, so many bubbles were created, and they are gone, they are gone, they are gone." (laughter) It's nonsense. (laughs) So Kṛṣṇa is very nicely giving argument that "If you think there is no soul, it is being manufactured by the interaction of the physical element, so it is just like bubbles in the ocean. So many bubbles are created and destroyed every moment. So what is there cause of lamentation? What is your reason?" Then?
Prabhupāda: He is, as a friend, He's criticizing that "You are professing to be followers of Vedic culture, and you are accepting some nonsense culture. That is not good for you." All right, stop there. So you read carefully Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is there. Every word, every line is so, I mean to say, instructive. It is simply... That is the basic principle of spiritual knowledge. Now we have presented. Every one of you should very carefully read. Every one of you must have one book and read it carefully and appear in the examination next Janmāṣṭamī. You'll get designation, (laughs) Bhakti-śāstrī. Yes. So any question? Now invite people to come here. We have got now a nice place.
That is simply for argument's sake. Actually, that is not the position. Now, if you think that the combination of chemicals can produce living force, then why don't you do it in the laboratory? The chemicals are there. You can combine and just produce a small ant, moving. Then it is... Science means observation and experiment. So if you simply observe, and cannot make any experiment, practical, so then that is not science. That is only theory. That is not possible. No scientist has ever made any living entity by combination of chemicals in the laboratory. Nobody can do that. (pause)
- jātasya hi dhruvo mṛtyur
- dhruvaṁ janma mṛtasya ca
- tasmād aparihārye 'rthe
- na tvaṁ śocitum arhasi
Jātasya hi dhruvo mṛtyuḥ. "It is a fact that by the cycle of birth and death, one who dies, he has to accept again another body. So why you are deviating from your duty?"
There are many theories and philosophical speculation all over the world about understanding the soul. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is concluding that "Somebody's explaining wonderfully, somebody is hearing wonderfully, but even after hearing and speaking, it remains a mystery, and less intelligent person cannot understand it." That is the fact. There are so many theories. Therefore we have to accept the reality from the authority. By theorizing, by speculating, we cannot come into any decision. I may be very good logician. You may be greater logician. So you can defeat my logic. I can defeat your logic. So what is the conclusion? This kind of talking, it is called ku-tarka, unnecessarily talking, because you'll not come to my decision, I'll not come to your decision. So everyone is mysterious.
So in this way we cannot understand which is beyond the perception of our knowledge. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. Things which are beyond our perception, you, we should not simply try to understand by logic and argument. It is useless waste of time, because nobody can decide theory. The modern so-called scientists, they also write like that: "Perhaps," "It may be," like that. "It may be millions of years. It was like this." "It may be." What is the value of saying "It may be." Say definitely. That they cannot do. All the scientists" theory like "Perhaps," "Maybe." "Perchance, if it comes to be true..." So such kind of argument has no value. Therefore our śāstra says: acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvāḥ. Beyond your perception, beyond your sense perception, don't try to understand it by argument and logic. Then how to know it? Know it from the person who knows it. That is knowledge. Just like we are trying to get knowledge about the soul, not by experiment, but we are trying to understand from the words of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the authority. So He says, in the beginning: dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). We can... Kṛṣṇa says, and we can think over it and ponder over it. Then we come to conclusion.
So Kṛṣṇa says, putting forward the Buddha philosophy which was formerly known as lokāyatikas and vaibhāṣikas... These two kinds of philosophers, they did not believe. Mostly the materialistic philosophers, they have no understanding of the soul. Therefore they have different kinds of theories which we do not accept. Kṛṣṇa says that if you are not sanātanist or followers of the Vedic principles, if you think that your principle and views are different, that by combination of matter this existence coming, atha cainaṁ nitya-jātam... Nityam means by combination of... Just like so many things are taking place by interaction of different material elements. Similarly, if you don't believe in this existence of the soul, if you think that there is no soul, the life is the result of combination of matter, nitya-jātam, and when this combination of matter is some way or other dismantled, then there is no more soul, it is finished. It began at a point by combination of matter, and it ends in a point by disintegration of matter. If you think like that, then also tathāpi tvaṁ mahā-bāho. Kṛṣṇa is criticizing Arjuna, mahā-bāhu. Actually he is mahā-bāhu. Mahā-bāhu means mighty-armed. One who has got a very strong, mighty arm, he can fight very strongly.
So this standard of morality, there cannot be fixed up if one is not God conscious. There cannot be. Standard of morality, standard of goodness, cannot be. That is the decision of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They think that animal has no soul. They do not accept this morality that animal cannot be killed, it is sinful, it is immoral. They have created their own theory. So without being standardized by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, you cannot find the standard platform of morality, honesty. These things you cannot find. This is not possible. Therefore, the verdict of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Just like if you do not follow a standard law, how you can fix up "This is morality" or "This is honesty or dishonesty." There must be standard law. And who can give you the law unless he is the greatest authority? So law changes according to different countries, climate, situation.
This another theory, that voidism, that before our, this manifested life, there was void, and after this manifestation is over, still there will be void. Because according to voidism, everything is manifested originally void. So Kṛṣṇa puts forward this argument that before this manifested form of life there was void, and after this manifested life, there will be void, according to the void philosophy. Then where is the cause of lamentation? There is no cause of lamentation. It was void and it is going to be void. So where is the cause of lamentation? But actually that is... Originally, it was not void. That is a Bhagavad-gītā and Vaiṣṇava theory. Just like Kṛṣṇa said that there was "No such time when we did not exist." That means not there was... There was no void. There was life. And in future also, there will be life. But accepting the theory of voidism, this manifested body is combination of matter. Originally, void means the matters, elementary matters, were not combined. Just like here is an open land. Now, if you combine some bricks and stones and wood, it will appear a big skyscraper building. And if you dismantle, then again it becomes a vacant land. Similarly, in the beginning it was vacant land, and after finishing this body it will be vacant land. So where is the cause of lamentation? For argument's sake, Kṛṣṇa is putting this reason. Yes.
Pradyumna: (purport) "Yet even if, for argument's sake, we accept the atheistic theory, there is still no cause for lamentation. Apart from the separate existence of the soul, the material elements remain unmanifested before creation. From this subtle state of unmanifestation comes manifestation. Just as from ether, air is generated; from air, fire is generated; from fire, water is generated; and from water, earth becomes manifested. From the earth, many varieties of manifestations..."
Prabhupāda: This is the process of creation. From ether, then sky, then air, then fire, then water, then earth. This is the process of creation. Yes.
So similarly on the strength of Bhagavad-gītā, if one wants to prove his foolish philosophy, that is a great offense. That's a great offense. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā cannot be interpreted by foolish commentators. It must be studied through the paramparā system, ācārya upāsanam. One must worship the ācārya and learn from him what is Bhagavad-gītā. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. This is the Vedic injunction. Who knows things as they are. Ācāryaṁ māṁ puruṣa, one who is under the guidance of ācārya. So you won't find this foolish nonviolence theory from any ācārya. Many ācāryas have commented on Bhagavad-gītā. There is Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, even Śaṅkarācārya. But never said that Bhagavad-gītā is proof of nonviolence. Nonviolence is good but when there is dharma-yuddha, righteous fighting, there is no question of nonviolence. Violence is approved.
So we have to cure. Some philosopher says that this delirious condition should be cured, and there should be no activity. They are afraid of any activity. Because our, these material activities have become source of distress for us, therefore there are certain philosophers, they say that we should stop all sorts of activities. Their highest culmination of perfection according to their idea is that stopping all sorts of activities. Just like Buddha philosophy, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means stopping, stopping all activities. Buddha philosophy is... According to Lord Buddha, his theory is that due to the combination of material elements, this body has come into existence. Now, some way or other, if these material elements are separated or dismantled, then the cause of distress is removed. That is his... Just like you have got a big house and the tenants or the government or tax collector, they give us too much trouble.
So this theory, that separating the material elements by which this material body is formed, if they are broken or they are sent back to their original position, then we are free from all distresses, material... But we, at least those who are following this Bhagavad-gītā, this philosophy does not say that the material body is all in all. Beyond this material body, there is spirit, and the symptom of that spirit is understood by consciousness. Consciousness. That is the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā. Now, you cannot deny consciousness. You cannot deny consciousness. And consciousness minus... Body minus consciousness is dead body. Everyone knows it. A child can understand it, that I am speaking, you are hearing because your consciousness is present, my consciousness is present. As soon as my consciousness is deducted from this body, then this same mouth will not speak, the same hand will not move, the same your ear will not hear. The whole thing will be stopped. So it is very common sense affair, that consciousness, that is the main thing in this body.
The philosophy... There are many philosophies in the world. Particularly the philosophy which is called atheism, they think that consciousness is produced by material combination, and when consciousness is gone, that means the material composition could not tolerate or could not produce anything. They have got a different theory like that. But so far we are concerned, Vedic literature or Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā does not, I mean to say, accept this theory. Consciousness is eternal. Consciousness is eternal, and consciousness is the symptom of the soul. Soul is eternal. When the soul takes shelter in the matter, then the matter develops, not that that combination of matter, you can produce soul. That is not possible. If that would have been possible, then there are many great scientists and many scientific laboratory, especially in your Western countries, in Europe and America... But nobody could produce a single living being in the laboratory, scientific laboratory.
Yes. Very big, big scientists, astronomers, mathematicians, they have written in that book, Evidence of Existence of God. And they have all agreed that if there is God at all, He must be person. He cannot be imperson. And God says personally, "There is no greater truth than Me. Arjuna, there is no greater truth than Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8), "I am the source of all energy." So God says, Arjuna says, Vyāsa says, Nārada says; why should we hear a street man? (laughter) (Prabhupāda laughs) A man in the street, is he greater than Nārada? Is he greater than Vyāsa? He is greater than Kṛṣṇa? Then why should I hear him? You should ask him, "Please, keep your theory with you. We are greater authority than you." Yes. Yes?
So here we should always understand that if we sincerely and seriously take up the message of the Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any, I mean to say, adulteration... Sometimes it is adulterated by... Because Bhagavad-gītā is a very authoritative book, and it is popular all over the world, sometimes people take advantage of this book and present their own theory in an adulterated way. Not to speak of others... I may tell you frankly that even in our country, the greatest, I mean to, saintly politician, Mahatma Gandhi, he propounded a philosophy of nonviolence. Perhaps you know, every one of you, that he propounded nonviolence, and he wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā. He has got an annotation of Bhagavad-gītā, and he has tried to prove that Bhagavad-gītā, there is proof, nonviolence. But actually, Bhagavad-gītā is being spoken in the battlefield, where everyone is prepared to start violence.
Just like Śaṅkarācārya. Śaṅkarācārya's theory is that you first of all become a sannyāsa, in renounced order of life; then you try to understand what you are, sāṅkhya philosophy. Therefore, according to their system, anyone who takes sannyāsa, he's supposed to be immediately merged into the existence of God. Therefore they address, "Nārāyaṇa." In Śaṅkara sampradāya, one sannyāsī addresses another sannyāsī as "Nārāyaṇa." But here, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no condition. The only condition is... That is not condition; that is recreation.
The modern theory—the population has increased—this is a nonsense theory. If there is production is sufficient, where is the question of population increasing? Let population increase. The supplier will give you. In the Vedic literature we find, eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That Supreme Lord is supplying everyone food. Why do you think of human society? What is the human society? Out of 8,400,000 forms of life there are only 400,000 forms of human life. And 8,000,000 forms they are lower animals, birds, beasts, aquatics. Who is supplying their foodstuff? Everyone is sumptuously fed by the grace of God.
Why not you? You are suffering because you are disobeying, therefore you are suffering. That you should know, only the suffering population theory, this theory, that theory, only in the human society because they are regularly defying the existence of God—science, science, science. Now there are so many suffering people. Why your science cannot provide them food? So this is wrong theory. You have to satisfy the supreme supplier. Then you'll get sufficient production and you'll be happy.
Why you are anxious about the animals being starvation? You take care of yourself. You don't be philanthropic, "Oh, they'll starve. Let me eat." What is this philanthropy? Kṛṣṇa is supplying food. If he dies out of starvation, it is Kṛṣṇa's responsibility. Nobody dies of starvation. That is a false theory. Have you seen any animal dying of starvation? Have you got any experience? Have you seen any bird died of starvation? There is no question of starvation in the kingdom of God. We are manufacturing these theories for our own satisfaction, sense satisfaction. There is no question of starvation in the law of God. Elephant eats hundred pounds at a time. Who is supplying foodstuff? There are millions of elephants in the African jungle, in Indian jungles. They require one hundred pounds at a time to eat. Who is supplying food? So there is no question of starvation in the kingdom of God. Starvation is for the so-called civilized men.
Now, there are so many scientists. They are discovering vitamin value from foodstuff. Now, what is the vitamin value in the dry grass? Can any scientist say that this is the vitamin value in dry grass? If there is no vitamin value in dry grass, how the cow is producing so much milk, who is full of vitamins A and D? How, from dry grass, vitamins coming out? Nowadays the physician prescribes some artificial vitamins for maintaining your body. Now, what is the vitamin there in the dry grass so that the cow is eating dry grass and giving you nice milk full of vitamins A and D, essential for your life? So these are all wrong theories, that "This contains this vitamin. This contains this." Let them go on. But natural foodstuff which is meant for human being, they are full of vitamins already there by nature's law, by God's wish. So annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14).
Now, Kṛṣṇa says that "If I do not place the ideal life, then the population will be saṅkara." Saṅkara means unwanted, creating disturbances always. There will be no peace in the world. And actually we are feeling that there is no peace in the world. Why? Because the population has become unwanted. And by increasing such population the natural sequence will be... There must be. There will be some disease, there will be some famine or there will be some war when the population will be vanquished. That is the law of nature. That is accepted in economics also, Malthusian theory. Perhaps most of you know that whenever there is unwanted population these three things will naturally, by nature's course will appear—famine, pestilence, and war—and the population will be finished. So there was some unwanted population at that time also for which Kṛṣṇa arranged the war, battlefield of war. Battlefield of war. So we have to follow. If we want very good population, very good generation, then we have to follow the principles of Bhagavad-gītā.
And there are, so far scriptures are concerned, you'll find different scriptures describing in a different way. So that also, you'll be bewildered. Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. And there are different philosophers who are always contradictory. One philosopher is deviating. He's not in agreement with another philosopher. He has got a different theory. Another has got different theory. So philosophers also cannot give you the real truth. So neither you can understand the real truth simply by going through different scriptures, nor you can understand the real truth simply by your logical force or argument. So dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām. The, the, I mean to say, the mystery of Absolute Truth is very confidential, very confidential. Then how I can understand? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ: (CC Madhya 17.186) "If you follow the mahājana, the authorities, then you can understand." Therefore, this authority, this disciplic succession...
You have to become real human being. That is wanted. And what is the human being? That is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra. Vedānta-sūtra, you have heard the name, if you have not studied, that is the greatest philosophical presentation of Indian culture, Vedānta. Vedānta means, veda means knowledge, anta means end. Just like we have accumulating knowledge from university education, but everything remains imperfect. The scientists, they give some theory, but that is imperfect. Another scientist comes, he improves upon it, everything. That means this knowledge has no end, it is going on, going on. But the knowledge which is, which comes to the point that here is the extreme knowledge, that is called Vedānta. So the Vedānta means, those who have read Vedānta, Vedānta-sūtra, the first sūtra or code is athāto brahma jijñāsā. Atha, now, the time is for inquiring about the Absolute Truth, athāto brahma jijñāsā. That means the human life.
Therefore bhagavān uvāca. You take lessons from Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, perfect, all-perfect. What he will do by hearing this rascal or that rascal? Try to hear from the Supreme Personality without any fault, without any deviation. There are four kinds of defects in conditional life: to commit mistake, to be illusioned... Bhrama, pramāda, vipra-lipsā. To cheat, propensity for cheating. And imperfection of senses. So we are all infected with these four deficiencies of life, material condition of life. Therefore mukta means one who is liberated from these defects. Those who are infected with these defects, they cannot give you perfect knowledge. That is not possible. Imperfectness of senses—how he can gather perfect knowledge? They can simply say, "Perhaps," "It may be," "Most probably." That's all. Theories. Nobody can say, "It is like this." Just like in the Vedas it is said how many different varieties of lives are there.
"My dear Arjuna, the reason, the mission for which I appear is now explained, that I come here to establish the real constitutional position of the living entity. That is My mission. Now, when I come with some mission there are some activities. There are some activities." So there are some philosophers. They do not agree to accept that God comes as incarnation. They do not believe in this theory. They say that "Why God shall come to this rotten world?" That is their vision.
Generally, they compare the living entities to the bubbles of the ocean which merge into the ocean. That is the highest perfection of spiritual existence attainable without individual personality. This is a fearful stage of life, devoid of perfect knowledge of spiritual existence. Furthermore, there are many persons who cannot understand spiritual existence at all. Being embarrassed by so many theories and by contradictions and various types of philosophical speculation, they become disgusted or angry, and foolishly they conclude that there is no supreme cause and that everything is ultimately void. Such people are in diseased conditions of life. Some of them are too materially attached and therefore do not give attention to spiritual life, some of them want to merge into the supreme spiritual cause, and some of them disbelieve in everything, being angry at all sorts of spiritual speculation out of hopelessness.
They will put so many theories that there is no God, and none of the theories are practical, neither they can prove it by experimental knowledge. Still, they will insist on. That is their business. And when we say... When somebody says, "You prove it," the answer is, "Well, we are advancing. Some day will come; we shall prove it." That's all. "Some day will come." They do not understand that "Trust no future however pleasant."
Why you are expecting that some day will come when science will be perfect? Throughout the whole history of the human society, never it has been possible that one can give life. There is no such instance in the history. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). The four principles of material inebrieties, namely birth, death, old age, and disease, nobody has been able to check in the past history of human society, and how you can believe that in future these problems, namely janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, birth, death, old age, and disease, will be solved by the advancement of science? So at least we cannot believe. And no sane man will believe it.
Therefore those who are trying to defy the presence of God, saying, "God is dead. There is no God," and trying to prove by so-called scientific method there is no God, the matter is working out of his own way, and things are taking place—there are so many theories—they are called classified as miscreant. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ. Miscreants, and mūḍhāḥ means rascals. Mūḍha... Real meaning of mūḍha is ass. Ass has no knowledge. He is working day and night, oh, very... But he does not know what for he is working. He has no ambition, he has no information where is the destination of perfection. Therefore they are called mūḍhāḥ. Mūḍhāḥ means rascals. So na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Narādhama means lowest of the mankind. Na prapadyante: "They do not surrender unto Me, God." Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ.
That is nastik theory. This nastik or atheism... There were many saints in India also. One of them is Carvaka. He's very famous atheist. His philosophy is hedonism. Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet yāvaj jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet. His theory is, because in India the luxury is to eat something which is cooked in ghee: luci, purī, halavā. So Carvaka Muni says that you take loan from your friends if you have no money and eat as much as possible ghee. Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet yāvaj jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet. And so long you live, you live by gratifying your senses. Here sukham means sense gratification.
But according to Vedic civilization, sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyam grāhyam (BG 6.21). What is the actual happiness? That is beyond your senses. Not sense gratification. But because we are materially absorbed, we think indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur (BG 3.42). Indriya. the senses, always all. To satisfy the senses that is sukh. That is happiness. And those who are a little disgusted with sense gratification, indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42). They are mental speculators. They write poetries and utopian theories, "This philosophy, that philosophy." In this way they satisfy the mind. But that is also not happiness.
There is no question of overpopulation. This is a false theory. If God can create, He can maintain also. And actually, this is the fact. I am travelling all over the world. There are so much vacant places upon the surface of the globe that, that ten times more than the present population can be easily maintained. But we, we, we do not know how to use it. In Africa, in Australia, in your America, enough land still lying. But because we have encroached upon the land of Kṛṣṇa, the difficulty's there. China is overpopulated. India is overpopulated. But we, if we take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, these difficulties will be over within a second.
Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to take everything Kṛṣṇa's. I am also Kṛṣṇa's. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Actually, that is the fact. Everything... Kṛṣṇa means God. Everything belongs to God. I also belong to God. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God. That's a fact. But we do not not accept the fact. We take something illusory. Therefore, it is called māyā.
Guest (4): Prabhupāda, that, perhaps, contradicts with the theory of reincarnation?
Prabhupāda: What is that incarnation theory? You are going to get another body. That is reincarnation. Now, what kind of body you are going to get, that will depend on your work. There are 8,400,000 different types and forms of body. So you are at liberty to work. Therefore the direction is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, "You work like this. Then you get the body like this." So this is risky life. Without knowing the law of God, without knowing how nature is working, how the living entity is getting different types of body, without this knowledge, if we simply keep ourself on the business of eating, sleeping, sex and defense like cats and dogs, this is very, very risky life.
Then, transcending the material nature, then he becomes zero? No. That is the real nature. Now, the philosophy which preaches that "After our liberation, after nirvāṇa of this material existence, there is zero," oh, that is very dangerous theory because we are not attracted by zero. That is our nature, living entity. Now, suppose I am suffering from some disease and there are so many ailments, and if some doctor comes: "Oh, let me finish your ailments by killing you," oh, will you agree? You'll say, "No, no, better let me suffer from the disease. I don't want to be killed." Is it not? Will you agree? Suppose you have got too much suffering, miseries of life, and I suggest, "All right, let me cut your throat and kill you, and everything will be finished." "Oh, no, no, no, I'm not agreeable to that." That is the sane man's statement. "Oh, I am not going to be killed for ending my miseries." That is the nature. So the theory that "After making end of all these material miseries, there is nothing, void," oh, that is not attractive. That is not attractive at all.
Śrutayo vibhinnā nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. But if you philosophize, following some philosopher... There are six kinds of philosophers in India. So philosopher means he must decry another philosopher. He must give a new theory. So nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. That will also not help. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām. It is very confidential subject matter.
Mahājano yena gataḥ so panthāḥ. Then you accept the mahājana. Mahājana means following the paramparā system. According to Vedic system, there are twelve mahājanas. Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ, janako bhīṣmaḥ and vaiyāsakir vayam (SB 6.3.20), like that. I am just now forgetting. Excuse me. Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kapilo kumāraḥ manuḥ, prahlādo janako bhīṣmaḥ (SB 6.3.20). Prahlāda, Prahlāda Mahārāja, this gṛhastha. Amongst these mahājanas, there are sannyāsīs, there are brahmacārīs, and there are gṛhasthas also. So it does not mean only the sannyāsī and brahmacārī can become mahājana. There are gṛhasthas also.
You must know, because you have to accept next body. You can talk foolishly, "No, there is no body." Bhasmī-bhūtasya... That is the atheistic theory, that after the body is burned into ashes, everything is finished. Big, big professors, big, big learned scholars, so-called scholars, they say like that, "Oh, there is no life. Everything is finished after this body is finished." But that is not a fact. If we have to accept the authority of Bhagavad-gītā... We have to accept it. If we don't accept, that is our foolishness.
Yes. Now if I think that I am poor man. Oh, the bank proprietor and directors they have got so much money. The theory of the communist theory. They have tried to attack others that they have snatched our money. Actually one should be satisfied. Just like a bank clerk or a bank cashier should be satisfied with his post and the wages he gets. He should be satisfied. If God pleases he will be elevated to higher position. That is God's grace. But we should not be disturbed. We should be śāntas... And thus disturbance can be checked only if we are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Economic development means to get more money and to satisfy senses more and more. This is the modern theory. But Kṛṣṇa says that to achieve the perfection of life, one should be nirāśīḥ. Nirāśīḥ means unnecessarily desiring for sense gratification, unnecessarily. Everyone has got right to live and live nicely. For that purpose there is sufficient arrangement by the Lord. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. There is sufficient arrangement. No living being will starve. There is such arrangement. But when we forget more and more Kṛṣṇa and God, nature will punish. There will be restriction of supply of foodstuffs. That is nature's law.
Māyāvādī philosophers, they do not know that there is relationship that the Para-brahman and Brahman can be engaged in loving transaction. That they do not understand. They think that Brahman, when merges into the existence of Para-brahman, then business is finished. No. Business is not finished. Because we are individuals. It is not possible to remain without any activity. That is theory, that without any activity we can remain. That is not possible. And if we have no information of the spiritual activity, then we have to come back again to this material activity. That is practical example. There are many sannyāsīs. They so-called merging into Brahman, but they come back in material activities, in politics, in sociology and so on. So therefore these instructions are very valuable. nirāśīr yata-cittātmā tyakta-sarva-parigrahaḥ śārīraṁ kevalaṁ karma. Śārīra, just to maintain your body. Be satisfied. Whatever is supplied by Kṛṣṇa, be satisfied.
This is the position. Otherwise where is the difficulty of understanding God? "God is dead. There is no God. I am God, you are God." So many theories. Why? Here is God. God personally comes to show you what is the position of God, and He has shown what is the meaning of God. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya balasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ. What is the meaning of Bhagavān, He has shown. Still, we are so unfortunate, we cannot accept. Because we are not free from the contamination. Yeṣām. One can understand. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām. Otherwise,
- manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
- kaścid yatati siddhaye
- yatatām api siddhānāṁ
- kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ
- (BG 7.3)
So the best thing is that we should be submissive. We should not be proud. That will not help us. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatām. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya. The so-called speculative knowledge should be given up. Jñāne prayāsam, namanta eva. Just be submissive. Namanta eva. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva, san-mukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām. San-mukharitām, those who are perfectly saint.... Just like Vyāsadeva, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, san-mukharitām. They have accepted.... Caitanya Mahāprabhu.... San-mukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām. In this way we can understand, we can take the lesson, everything is clear.
And those who are little advance, they are in the enjoyment of the mind, mental speculation, philosophy, or theosophy. So many "sophies" are there. Somebody putting some theories, this theory, that theory, that theory. Mental speculation. They derives poetry, writing poetry, nice poetry. They are not on the gross platform of sense gratification but on the subtle platform of sense... Mind is also sense. Mind is also sense.
Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca, bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā: (BG 7.4) "These eight elements, they are also My prakṛti, but bhinnā, separated, separated prakṛti." Prakṛti means subordinate to the puruṣa. As soon as the prakṛti... Generally, we understand that the husband and wife.... Wife is called prakṛti, and the husband is called puruṣa. So puruṣa means enjoyer, and prakṛti means enjoyed. So similarly, when Kṛṣṇa says, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā, that all these elements, gross and subtle, earth, water, air, fire, and these are gross elements, and the mind, intelligence and ego, subtle elements.... Then Kṛṣṇa says, apareyam: "These elements are inferior prakṛti." Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. There is another prakṛti. What is that? Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). Jīva-bhūta, the living entity. The living entity is also prakṛti. We are not puruṣa. But we forget this.
Because they want something new. This is very old. There is a song by a great dramatist in India. He is singing, ekṭā navana kichu koro. That means "You do something, invent something new. You invent something new, and then you become very popular." You see? That is the way of modern thoughts. You invent something new. Not modern, this is going on. Just like there is version in the Vedic literature, na cāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. If you want to be a muni or a sage, you must put forward some new theory. Otherwise he is not a philosopher. A philosopher is not counted a philosopher unless he defies all other philosophers and puts some new theory. And that is going on. Na cāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. So whose philosophy you will accept? Every day you will find a new philosophy. So whom to follow?
Therefore, out of disgust, everyone is trying to follow his own principle, whatever he likes. And there are some missionary activities. They also advocate that "You can do whatever you like, and you will get God." So people are trying like that.
So this yoga system, as described herein, bhakti-yoga, it can be practiced by such persons who have developed such attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Others cannot. And if anyone is able to develop such attachment, then the result will be that he will understand God, or Kṛṣṇa, perfectly. However we may try to understand what is God by our different theories or speculation, it is a very difficult job to understand what is God. We may say that I have..., we have understood what is God, but it is not possible to understand God as He is, because we have got our limited senses and He is unlimited. How you can capture the Unlimited with your limited sense? But it is possible.
The present age is called Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means the age of quarrel and disagreement. Nobody agrees with any other man. Everyone has got his own theory; everyone has got his own philosophy. So therefore it is called Kali-yuga. And if I don't agree with you, you fight with me. Therefore it is called Kali-yuga. So this is the only method recommended in this age: kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt. Simply by chanting the holy name of God, one can attain perfect self-realization, which was attained by the yoga system in the Satya-yuga, which was attained in the Tretā-yuga by performing great sacrifices, and which was performed in the Dvāpara-yuga by large-scale temple worship. That thing can be attained by the simple method hari-kīrtanāt. Hari means the Supreme Personality of Godhead; kīrtanāt—by glorifying Him. This is the method recommended in the śāstras. And Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, five hundred years ago, He appeared in a town which is known as Navadvīpa. It is about sixty miles northern side of Calcutta. People still go there. We have got our temple, center there. It is also a sacred pilgrimage.
Therefore here in this material world there are two energies working. In the spiritual world there is only spiritual energy working. But in the material world, two energies are working: material and spiritual. Material energy is dependent on spiritual energy. Spiritual energy is prominent everywhere, in this material world and the spiritual world. Here also, the matter is developing upon spirit, not that spirit is manifesting under certain conditional stage of matter. That is a wrong theory. For example, the small spiritual spark, the living entity, very small, we cannot even imagine with our material brain. It is one ten-thousandth part of a point. We, in the material world, we cannot measure the length and breadth of point. Therefore those who are mathematicians, they say, "Point has no length, no breadth." But actually that is not a fact. You have no eyes to see the length and breadth of a point. You are so blunt, your senses are so limited, imperfect, that you cannot imagine that a point can have length and breadth.
So when Caitanya Mahā..., eh, Rāmānanda Rāya quoted one verse from Bhāgavatam which was spoken by Brahmā, that jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva, "When one gives up this nonsense speculative process..." Everyone is speculating. The scientist, philosopher, everyone is speculating, just to show himself that he has grown very learned, he can put some theory. So this is first rejected. Brahmā... Brahmā says. Brahmā's experience... He's the topmost living creature within this universe. He said that "When a person will give up this nonsense habit of speculation..." Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya. He must become submissive. One should not pose himself that he knows something, he can speculate something, he can invent something. Just like the so-called scientists, they are simply speculating and wasting labor. Nothing can be done by you. Everything is already arranged. You cannot change. You can simply see how the law is working; so much you can do. But neither you can change the law, you can make a better facility for the law. No. That you cannot do. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Duratyayā means it is very difficult.
So actually, this is the problem of living entities. That knowledge can be acquired in the human form of life and it can be solved, not that simply we get the knowledge, but it can be solved. So therefore, real business of human life, to understand oneself, that is called self-realization, brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and find out the remedy and act accordingly. That is the mission of human life. Not like to dance like cats and dogs with a nice dress. That is not human life. This is the subject matter of Bhagavad-gītā, our whole Vedic instruction. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). This is God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or self-realization. Self-realization means either you see yourself or see the Supreme Lord, either way. But without seeing the Supreme Lord, you cannot see yourself. Just like without seeing the sun in the darkness... Just like it is now night. There is no sun. So I cannot see also. In darkness I cannot see also myself. But when there is sun in the morning, I can see the sun and I can see myself also. This is the theory. So if we want to understand ourselves rightly, that "I am spirit soul," ahaṁ brahmāsmi, then we must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
So we cannot accept the theories or the statement of some defective person. We should hear from the person who is not defective, perfect. Therefore our process of hearing or getting knowledge is from the perfect person. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are hearing Bhagavad-gītā, we are getting knowledge from Bhagavad-gītā, because Bhagavān Himself speaking. Therefore here it is said... Although it is said by Kṛṣṇa... Everyone knows that Kṛṣṇa spoke Bhagavad-gītā, and Vyāsadeva recorded it and then put it into the Mahābhārata, this statement. But here Vyāsadeva purposely says... One may not misunderstand that this knowledge is imperfect. Therefore he says, bhagavān uvāca. Bhagavān uvāca means there is no defect. You can accept it as it is and you get the full knowledge. This is the meaning of bhagavān uvāca. Many times he has said. So bhagavān uvāca, and He is speaking about Himself, Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, coming here. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham (BG 4.7).
Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, asaṁśayam. The theoretical knowledge, experimental knowledge, always remains in doubt. All the scientists, they are not confident. Now there is a theory, "theory of uncertainty," among the scientists. Whatever knowledge they are making, they are making progress, everything is uncertain. Yes. It must be uncertain, because the basic principle is wrong. Therefore it must be uncertain. A conditioned soul, as we are, under the condition of the material nature, three modes of material nature, how our knowledge can be perfect? It is not possible. The first defect is, because we are conditioned, we commit mistakes, so many. And we become illusioned. Just like every knowledge is being based on the illusion that "I am this body, material body," which I am not. But the whole world is going on under this conception, that "I am this body." "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa," like that. So the basic principle is illusion. And there are so many mistakes we commit. And the senses are imperfect. And although my senses are imperfect, I, still, I theorize, "It may be...," "It is like this," "It is like that." These are all imperfect things. Therefore whatever knowledge we may make progress, it is saṁśayam, it remains doubt, uncertainty.
So these things, "Perhaps, it may be," that is not certain. Therefore they have now accepted the theory of uncertainty. But here we, if we hear from Kṛṣṇa, then it is perfect knowledge. Samagram. How this material world is created, how this earth, five elements of gross elements come into existence, and everything will be explained. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ mām (BG 7.1). To understand Kṛṣṇa means to understand everything. Therefore tattvam.
So when we understand perfectly, complete knowledge, then there is no more anything remains to be understood. Everything is... Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. So the Bhagavad-gītā is not theory. It is knowledge, and practically applicable in life. Sa-vijñānam. And if we try to understand Kṛṣṇa in perfect order, then there is nothing remains to be understood. Everything becomes revealed. This knowledge becomes revealed. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). Revealed. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi (SB 10.14.29).
In our present position, with blunt material senses, with four defects, it is not possible to understand what is God. We have got four defects in this material condition. We commit mistake, every one of us; we are illusioned; we accept something for something for something. So to commit mistake, illusioned, and our senses are imperfect. The knowledge we gather through our senses, that is imperfect because our senses are imperfect. Just like we see every day the sun with our eyes, but because our senses are imperfect, we see the sun like a disc, although it is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth. In this way, if we analyze our senses, it will be found that our senses are imperfect. By the imperfect senses speculating, that is not perfect. Therefore all the speculators, they, so-called scientists, philosophers, they put forward theories: "Perhaps," "It may be," like that. That means it is not perfect knowledge. But if we receive knowledge from the supreme perfect God, that it is actually perfect. Our process is like that.
"I am speaking to you a process of knowledge, jñānam." Jñānam means knowledge. Te: "unto you." Ahaṁ sa-vijñānam. Sa-vijñānam means... Jñānam is theoretical, and vijñānam means practical. Just like in scientific knowledge, the student has to pass both theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge. Theoretical... "Combination of this chemical and that chemical makes this chemical," this is theoretical knowledge. But when you mix these two chemicals or three chemicals and produce that object, that is practical. Recently, I may say, in California University, one learned professor came there to speak about the evolutionary theory of chemicals, and he said that life is produced, perhaps you know, from four chemicals. But when one student he said that "If I supply these four chemicals, whether you can produce life?" In answer to this, he said, "That I cannot say." That is imperfect knowledge. If you say, "Life is produced from chemicals," then you must make experimental demonstration, by mixing those chemicals, you produce life. That is called vijñānam, practical demonstration. Otherwise it is not perfect. Scientific knowledge means observation, then experiment. If you fail in your experiment, that is not scientific knowledge. It must be experimented.
There are living entities, 8,400,000 species or forms. And nine... Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi, 900,00 forms in the water. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. Two million forms of the trees and plants. In this way there are, altogether, different forms of life, 8,400,000. Don't think that the plants and trees, they have no life. They are also living entities. We do not accept this theory that the animals have no soul. No. Everyone has got soul. Even the plants, trees, everyone has got soul. They have got different bodies only. It is not that only human being has got the soul, not others. No. Actually if we make analysis what is the symptoms of possessing soul, you will find everywhere. Even in plants' life you will find. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose, one of the greatest scientist of the world, he has proved by machine that when you cut the trees or the leaves, they feel sensation, pain, and that is recorded by machine. So everyone has got soul.
Prabhupāda: Hm ? What is that?
Brahmānanda: When Caitanya Mahāprabhu took sannyāsa, His guru offered Him one name, but He refused and preferred to keep the name Kṛṣṇa Caitanya which is a brahmacārī name. Why was this?
Prabhupāda: Because he took sannyāsa from a Māyāvādī sannyāsī, and Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, they think of themselves that they have become Nārāyaṇa. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu refused to accept that theory, that He is Nārāyaṇa. He preferred to remain a brahmacārī than to become a false sannyāsī and claim to become Nārāyaṇa.
Devotees: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: Yes?
Indian man (8): Prabhupāda, when we do our chanting, the chanting beads contain 108 beads. Why is this, and why do we chant sixteen rounds?
Prabhupāda: Not sixteen rounds. You can chant unlimitedly.
So there is soul and there is the gross material body and there is the subtle material body. The soul is the basic principle, but to get a body, as I have already explained, the secretion discharged by the father and the mother, they mix up, they are emulsified and forms in the body of a pea. And the soul comes through the semina of the father and he's situated there. Then the body develops. Now, just try to understand. Because the spirit soul is there, therefore matter is developing. If the soul is not there, if the child is dead, no more development. No more development. No dead child develops a body. Everyone knows. Therefore these material elements come from the spirit soul, not that spirit soul comes from the material elements. This is not. This is wrong theory. If it comes from the material combination, then why you cannot produce a living entity in the laboratory? In the laboratory, no, that is not... A material... Because... Material creation is there because I wanted a, such a circumstances, atmosphere, and anumantā, the Supreme Lord, He's the supreme sanction giver—He gives me opportunity to enter into a certain type of mother's body, and the material grows.
So it is not very difficult to understand. The Buddhist theory is that living symptoms are produced by combination of matter. But from Bhagavad-gītā and other Vedic literature we understand that matter is produced from spirit soul. Matter, not from the matter the living symptoms are produced. According to Lord Buddha's philosophy, that this body is combination of matter... So when we dismantle the matter, nirvāṇa, then there is no more feelings of pains and pleasures. That is called śūnyavādi. But we are neither śūnyavādī or nirviśeṣa-vādī. We are saviśeṣa-vādīs. Saviśeṣa-vādi means that the spirit soul has got its form, and this body has got form. Just like dress takes its form because the man has got a form. This body is considered as dress. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). We are changing our dresses as much as we change our old dress to new ones. Old order changes, yielding place to new. So this body, because we, in our spiritual body we have got form, hands and legs, therefore we develop a material body which has got hands, legs, etc. That we can understand very easily. Just like your coat and shirt cannot have hands and legs without you having your hands and legs; similarly, this material body which is considered as dress means it has developed on the personal body of the spiritual form. This is called saviśeṣa-vāda.
So māyā is controlled by Kṛṣṇa; Kṛṣṇa is never controlled by māyā. Kṛṣṇa is never controlled by māyā. That is not very good theory. That is due to poor fund of knowledge. Kṛṣṇa cannot be covered. Just like Vyāsadeva, by his bhakti-yoga meditation he saw Kṛṣṇa and māyā. Māyā apāśrayam, just on the background. Background, just like you find the shadow of the man. Not in the front. Similarly, māyā cannot cover Kṛṣṇa. That is wrong philosophy. Māyā can cover the individual soul. Therefore because the individual soul is apt to fall down sometimes under the clutches of māyā, it is called taṭastha-śakti. Taṭastha-śakti. Just like in the seaside the shore, the beach, sometimes you see it is covered by water and sometimes it is land; similarly, when we are covered by māyā, that is our jīva-bhūta stage, and when there is no more covering, that is brahma-bhūta stage. When we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then we are brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and when we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, we are materially conscious, that is māyā.
So mayi sarvam idaṁ protam. The example is very nice. Mayi sarvam idaṁ protaṁ sūtre maṇi-gaṇā iva. Just like pearls. The pearls... Take it. Pearl is round, and the innumerable universes are also round. So all these universes are staying... Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4). Kṛṣṇa says. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ. So everything is resting on Kṛṣṇa. In another place He says that "I am sustaining all these planets." Of course, we understand law of gravitation according to our theory, but actually, according to Vedic description, the Saṅkarṣaṇa is sustaining all these planets. So anyway, it is to be understood. Just like the, all the planets are floating in the air in weightlessness... How this weightlessness comes? That is explained here. Mayi, "It is resting on Me." Kṛṣṇa says. Mayi sarvam idaṁ protaṁ sūtre maṇi-gaṇā iva.
Kṛṣṇa is a person, and from His energies so many varieties of productions are coming out. But still, He is existing. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam eva avaśiṣyate (Īśo Invocation). He's pūrṇa. Not that because so many things have been taken from Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is finished. This is material life. They cannot conceive of the omnipotency. They accept God is omnipotent, but they cannot understand what is that omnipotency. The omnipotency is that so many things are being manifested by the Kṛṣṇa's energies, but Kṛṣṇa is not lost. Kṛṣṇa is there. We haven't got to worship so many things, pantheism. No. That is not our... Pantheism, the same idea, that "Kṛṣṇa, or the Absolute Truth, has become divided into so many ways; therefore everything combined together is the Absolute Truth," this is the theory of pantheism. But ours is Vedic proposition, that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of everything. Varieties of material and spiritual things are there, but Kṛṣṇa's identity is there in Vṛndāvana.
So it requires relative intelligence. Everything... This world is relative. Law of relativity. That is scientific. Professor Einstein's theory? Law of relativity? So it is relatively. One can become immediately Kṛṣṇa conscious within a second, and one cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious after many, many births. So it is relative. If you have got sufficient intelligence, you can accept it immediately. If there is less intelligence, then it will take time. You cannot say that "It will be possible after so many years." That cannot be said. It is relative. Everything is relative. For a human being, from here to here, one step; and for a small microbe, it is ten miles from here to here, ten miles for him. So everything is relative. This world is relative world. There is no such formula that "One can be Kṛṣṇa conscious after so many years." No. There is no such formula. One cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious even millions after..., births, and one can become within second Kṛṣṇa conscious.
So tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnāḥ. Śrutayaḥ means scriptures. If you take scriptures, different scriptures there are, and one scripture may differ from another scripture. So that is also very difficult, to find out the real truth, transcendence, from the scriptures. So tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. And so far philosophy is concerned, each and every philosopher is different from the other philosophers. One philosopher is putting some theory, another philosophy is putting another doctrine or theory. So we are puzzled, which of them has to be accepted. Śrutayo vibhinnā nāsāv ṛṣir ya... Because in the mundane philosophers, mundane scholars, they want to give his own interpretation of everything. That is their habit. They don't accept the interpretation of the higher authority. They want..., each and every one of them want to become the higher authorities. So our this principle, this devotional principle, is not like that. We don't pose ourselves as the higher authority. We just try to follow the higher authority. We don't pose ourself. We never... We'll never say that "In my opinion, it should be like this." Oh, what opinion I have got? What value I have got of my opinion? What is my value? I am a blunt man. I cannot acquire any knowledge perfectly. And what is the use of my opinion?
These are described all in the Bhagavad-gītā. But still that is material. Even one is śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣaḥ jñānam vijñānam āstikyam, he's possessing, still that is material. But spiritual position is another position, transcendental position, brahma-bhuyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). So bhakti-yoga is so nice that soon as you come to the discipline of bhakti-yoga, you become situated in brahma-bhūta platform. Brahma-bhūta, he doesn't require to make separate effort for becoming brahma-bhūta. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi, this is a theory for the māyāvādī philosopher, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Actually we are brahma, because we are part and parcel of parambrahma. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta (BG 15.7). So Kṛṣṇa is paraṁ brahma, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Arjuna realized Kṛṣṇa like this. So we are brahma, that's a fact. The Veda stresses on this point, that you realize yourself that "You are not this body. You are brahma, spirit soul." That is wanted. That is brahma bhūta (SB 4.30.20) state, when one understands that "I am not this body. So long I am thinking in bodily concept of life, I am no better than the asses, animal."
Big, big professors, big, big learned scholars, they say that after finishing the body... Our men in Delhi, New Delhi, they are making some life members amongst the parliamentary M.P.s. So one M.P. said that "We don't believe in this. The last perfection is to become zero, to become zero." Because they cannot think, those who are materialist, they cannot think that there is another, spiritual world. They, they cannot think. Therefore this zero theory, śūnyavāda, was propounded by Lord Buddha. Lord Buddha propounded śūnyavāda, because the people are so rascal, they could not understand. There was no necessity. There was no necessity. He simply said nirvāṇa: "Stop this nonsense material life." But after material life, what is there, that He did not reveal, because these fools and rascal will not understand. Therefore He did not say. Śūnyavāda: make it śūnya. Just like foolish person suffering from some disease, he wants to kill himself, sometimes commit suicide, because he does not know that after suicide, the policy, there is no stoppage; he will have to become a ghost because you have disobeyed. God has given you certain type of body. You have to stay in that body for certain period. That is obedience to God.
This is the list of evolution. Darwin has taken, but he has explained in a different way, misguiding way. But anyway, the evolution theory. It is not theory; it is fact. That is acceptable by the Vedic scholar also. It is explained in the Padma Purāṇa, aśītiṁ caturaś caiva lakṣāṁs tāñ jīva-jātiṣu. This is the statement in the Padma Purāṇa, that the aśītiṁ caturaś caiva, 8,400,000. They say in the Vedic language, forty-eight hundred thousands..., eight-four hundred thousand. Anyway, the evolution is there, and in the lower species of life there are eight millions. Human forms of life, only 400,000 out of which more than 300,000 forms of life are uncivilized men. They do not know what is the aim of life.
There are two kinds of sterilization: either by increasing the heat or decreasing the heat, below zero. But Bhagavad-gītā, from Bhagavad-gītā we understand, adāhyo 'yam: soul is never killed in fire, neither it is killed by extreme coldness. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam. Spirit cannot be counteracted by any material reaction. That is spirit. So therefore, the theory that in the fire the living entity dies, it is not; otherwise how these ślokas are there in the Second Chapter? Adāhyo 'yam, akledyo 'yam, aśoṣya 'yam. That means anything material, that can be cut into pieces, but the soul cannot be cut into pieces. Acchedyo 'yam. It cannot be cut into pieces. Acchedyo' yam. Adāhyo 'yam: it cannot be burned into ashes in the fire. Akledyo 'yam aśoṣya 'yam: by the reaction of the five elements, earth, water, fire, air, that is not applicable in the soul. So if they're not applicable to the soul, which is minute particle of the Supreme Soul, how it is applicable to the Supreme Soul? Therefore it is a miscalculation that Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Soul, is affected by this material nature.
Nobel Prize. He came to California University. So he was lecturing on his theory that life has begun by combination of certain chemicals. He has mentioned those chemicals, but in that meeting, there was a member. He's my student, my disciple. He's doctor in chemistry. He has learned something about our philosophy. So he challenged that gentleman that: "If I give you all these chemicals, whether you can produce life?" The answer was: "That I cannot say." The answer was not very distinct. Actually, that is not the fact. If the scientist says that life begins from chemicals, wherefrom the chemicals came? The next question will be. You cannot get chemicals without being supplied by somebody else. So we are presenting this theory. People are being misled. It is a great question at the present moment, that the scientists says that from matter life begins. We are challenging: "No. From life, matter comes." Just the opposite.
So we are confident because we have got our Kṛṣṇa's statement in the Bhagavad-gītā: mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10), "Under My superintendence". Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ. Prakṛti is matter. Jaḍa-prakṛti. We have got many confirmation from the Vedic literature. Yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante. Imāni bhūtāni yataḥ jāyante. In the Vedānta-sūtra the same thing is confirmed: janmādy asya yataḥ, anvayāt (SB 1.1.1). The Bhāgavata explains, begins from this Vedānta-sūtra: janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). So we have got our sufficient background to challenge this theory that life comes from matter. No. When Kṛṣṇa says... In another place, Kṛṣṇa also says:
- ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
- mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
- iti matvā bhajante māṁ
- budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ
- (BG 10.8)
Budhāḥ. Not the rascals and nonsense, but those who have intelligence, budhāḥ. Bodha. Bodha means knowledge, and budha means one who possesses knowledge. So those who are devotees of Kṛṣṇa, they are not rascals. They are not rascals. They are budhāḥ. Not only budhāḥ, but also bhāva-samanvitāḥ. Bhāva-samanvita means a person who has understood Kṛṣṇa or who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he feels the presence of Kṛṣṇa everywhere. Bhāva-samanvitāḥ. Budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ. The same thing is confirmed in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. The mahā-bhāgavata, one who is advanced in spiritual consciousness, he sees everywhere Kṛṣṇa. And that is a fact.
So unless there is a sensible driver there, it cannot move. Very plain truth. Anyone can understand. But we are so foolishly educated that we do not accept this fact. We say that: "Matter is the cause of life. We do not accept this theory that life is the cause of matter." Because they are atheistic persons. As soon as they accept that life is the cause of matter, they have to accept God. Immediately. Immediately they have to accept God.
So these atheistic persons, in order to avoid Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in order to avoid Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Person, they push forward this theory that life is caused by matter. But that is not the fact. There are many instances. We can give many instances that life produces matter. Life... I can give you one small example. Just take, for example, one lemon tree. Lemon tree, it is also a living entity. Because there are eight million four hundred thousand species of living entities. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. Sthāvarāḥ means these trees, plants, creepers. They are two millions of varieties. So this ordinary lemon tree is producing so many lemons. And the lemon means citric acid. So if you take all these lemons, and take their juice, so one ordinary lemon tree produces tons of citric acid. It is a small living entity.
So this Bhagavad-gītā says that those who are trying to make a show of their knowledge, so let them do that. Viśvato-mukham. The universal form, pantheism, monotheism, monism. We have so many theories. But not atheism. You see? So these have come to this point. And sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Why does He says, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ? Because the path is not very easy. Spiritual path and to attain complete perfection is not very easy, especially in this age. In this age we are not living for long time. We are not very intelligent. We may think that we are very intelligent, but we are not intelligent, because we do not know "What I am." Ask anybody, "What you are?" He has the conception of this body. Therefore he's not intelligent. As soon as one will say, "Yes, I am this, such and such gentleman, a son of such and such gentleman. My country is such and such," these are all false. So nobody knows it. Therefore one who does not know it.
Now, the argument that "In whatever form you worship the Supreme..." This is the Māyāvādī theory, that "God is impersonal. Now, because we cannot worship or meditate on something impersonal, therefore let us imagine something about Him and meditate upon that." Just like the impersonalist yogis. They put before them a lump of something and concentrate upon them. So here that theory is refuted by Kṛṣṇa. That impersonal conception of the Supreme and our imagination of God, that is not the way of approaching God. He says clearly herewith that yānti deva-vratā devān: "Those who are worshiping the demigods..."
Therefore this is the only way, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to become perfect. Perfection means to attain spiritual life, eternity, blissful, and full of knowledge. That is waiting us. That is waiting us. Why should we refuse it? It is not a theory. Don't think that Bhagavad-gītā is something, imaginary thing. No. People have taken to it. They have practiced. They have attained success. It is coming on since a very, very long time. It was first advised to the sun-god. Then, after many, many millions of years, again, five thousand years before, it was advised to Arjuna. So it is coming down. It is accepted by all great ācāryas of India, and it is being followed, still being followed. So take it. Don't be destroyed. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and you will be saved. You will be saved from this destruction in the material...
And what is that importance? The spiritual side importance-giving means one has to see how much important this human life is. Because in the human form of life the spirit soul, although it is conditioned by material, I mean to say, encagement, it has developed its consciousness by gradual evolution. This evolution theory is there in the Padma-Purāṇa. There is actually evolution from lower status of life beginning from the aquatics, small, then plant life, then germs' life, then birds' life, then beast life, then human form of life, then civilized human form of life.
So fortunately we have got now civilized form of life. The Aryan family means they are civilized form of life. But we are utilizing in the matter of maintaining this body. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca. We are utilizing this material, this developed body. The spirit soul has got the chance now to liberate himself. There is a process. By nature's way, the evolution is to give chance the spirit to get out of this material entanglement. So people are not giving importance.
Just like the so-called scientists, philosophers, they propose their theories; "I think," "It may be like this," "Perhaps..." These are not knowledge. These are all nonsense. You must speak definitely if you know. Just like the śāstra says: jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Definitely. Nine hundred thousand species of life within the water. Why? You could say: "About nine lakhs." No. Nine lakhs. Not about. More or less. No. Not like that. That is knowledge. That is perfect... Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. And the trees, plants, they are two millions. Never says: "approximately." "Maybe," "perhaps." No. This is all nonsense. We don't accept such knowledge. So... But the, in the material world, these things are going on. Any rascal will give some theory. That will be accepted and he'll be offered Nobel Prize.
So that is condemned in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: śva-viḍ-varāha-uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. So according to Bhāgavata direction, these Nobel Prize winners are exactly like dogs, camels, hogs, śva-viḍ-varāha-uṣṭra and asses. And they are praised by similar animals. That's all. The Nobel Prize winner and the Nobel Prize giver. Both of them are like dogs hogs animal and asses. That's all. This is a fact. They... If, if a person has written some theory, evolution of chemicals, and all rubbish things, it is very nice thing for the so-called dogs and camels, but those who have got eyes to see, one who has heard from Kṛṣṇa, he'll understand this is nonsense. How, from chemical, you can produce life? When he's asked: "Well, sir, if I give you these chemicals, can you produce life?" Immediately he says: "That I cannot say."
Just like at the present moment, amongst the scientists the knowledge is going on that life is made of matter, from matter, chemical evolution theory. And such person also being awarded with Nobel prize. He is going on on the wrong field of knowledge, that life is product of matter; by combination of matter, life is produced. It is not knowledge. It is ignorance. But by speculative process, one is writing a big volume of books and he is getting Nobel Prize. Where is the proof that by combination of matter life comes out?
This was discussed by a big professor in California University. He was touring, lecturing all over the world. So when I was in Los Angeles he also came there. So in the Los Angeles University there is one Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara. He is PhD in Chemistry. He is my student. He challenged the professor that "If you say that life is combination of some chemicals, suppose I give you the chemicals. Can you produce life?" The professor said, "That I cannot say."
So this is going on. What you do not know exactly—simply theoretically you put some theories and speculate—that is not knowledge. But our process, we are getting knowledge from the perfect personality. That is Vedic system.
Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke. This bag of bones and flesh and blood and urine and stool... This is the bag. This is body. What is this body? You dissect this body. You will find these things. You will find blood, muscles, bones, urine, stool and so many other things. Does it mean that such a great intelligent man is combination of urine, stool, blood, bone? So why don't you create another intelligent man with these ingredients? But the so-called scientists and philosophers say that this body is everything. They have discovered some cellular theory, this theory... But that is not the fact.
The fact is that within this body there is the owner of the body. That is called soul. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). This is not the cause of our intelligence, but it is given by Kṛṣṇa, less or more intelligence. That is your position. But that knowledge, where you get? Not in the university, but you get from the Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore our request is, our only propaganda is, "Be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Try to understand everything, all problems." Then the solution is there in the Bhagavad-gītā.
So both Kṛṣṇa and the living entity are sitting in one tree. That is stated in the Upaniṣad. Two birds are sitting in one tree. One is eating the fruit of the tree and other is simply witnessing. The witnessing bird is Kṛṣṇa. And the bird who is eating the fruits of the tree, he is the living entity. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they cannot distinguish between the jīva soul, jīvātmā, and Paramātmā. They know it, but because they are monists, to establish their theory, they say there is no two, there is one. No. Kṛṣṇa says two. One kṣetrajñaḥ, the jīvātmā, and the other kṣetrajñaḥ He is, Kṛṣṇa. The difference between the two is that the individual living entity knows only about his kṣetra, body, but the other living entity, the supreme living entity, He knows all the bodies, everywhere, anywhere, throughout the whole creation. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo (BG 15.15). This is the difference.
So material nature is actually the field of activities in our conditioned life. We have—manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). In the fifteenth chapter you'll find it, that, who are these living entities, we? Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivāṁśo: "They are all my parts and parcels." Mamaivāṁśo. Just like father and the son. A father has got many sons. Similarly, we are all sons of God. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7), sanātanaḥ. Sanātanaḥ means eternally. It is not that we are now part and parcel and after liberation we'll become one, or equal, the Māyāvādī theory. No. That is not. Therefore this very word is used, sanātana, eternally. Eternally, we are part and parcel.
So we may be very proud of advancement of knowledge, but actually we are not yet advanced, so far material science is concerned, to understand the basic principle of the moving force which is moving this body, the... On account of the presence of the soul, we have got so much intelligence, we have got so much thoughtful, psychological effect. So many things wonderful they are. But as soon as the soul is not there, everything collapses. So the Buddhist theory that the intelligence or consciousness takes place at a certain point of material mixture... But that may be an argument, but actually it is not a fact. Any amount of material mixture, you cannot produce soul. They have produced so many things by material mixture, but nobody has produced. In India, of course, we heard so many news that "In America they have produced life in chemical laboratory." And sometimes they say, "In Russia they are trying." But this is not possible. Nobody has found. And greatest scientists, they have admitted that the problem of life is beyond the scope of material science.
That is not expected. But maybe somebody may come and take to such transaction maybe seriously. But we cannot expect that everyone will understand the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not for ordinary man, not for the proud man, especially, who is thinking that "I am God." It is for the humble and meek who can actually submit to a God-realized person and receive knowledge from him. But he has the, I mean to say, liberty to inquire from him. One should not blindly accept the thesis or the theory which is put forward from Bhagavad-gītā. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). One should be asking questions by two principles. He should ask questions from a person whom he believes to be a man of knowledge. Otherwise it is simply waste of time. And at the same time, sevā, by service. Then question is allowed. Otherwise, blind acceptance is no acceptance. One should understand, but with service and surrender. These are the processes, and we are trying to administer this Kṛṣṇa consciousness under the principle of Bhagavad-gītā and Lord Caitanya.
So you are all welcome, and if you put up questions to understand, we shall be very glad to serve you. Any questions? (end)
People are searching after Īśvara, "Can you show me God?" "There is no God." "God is dead." So many philosophers and theories are there, but actually there is God. Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānandaḥ vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said that "Only īśvara is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme." Ekala īśvara kṛṣṇa, āra saba bhṛtya (CC Adi 5.142). "All others, they are servants." Nobody is actually īśvara. And we find it practically. Everyone in this material world, he may become an īśvara is his group, but he is also controlled by somebody superior. That is the position of this relative īśvara. But Kṛṣṇa is absolute īśvara. Nobody is īśvara above Him. That is Kṛṣṇa. So, everyone is trying to be īśvara. This is the material world. Everyone is trying to be īśvara.
We find nowadays, big, big philosophers write volumes of book, simply theorizing without any understanding of the spirit soul. Big, big philosopher. And Kṛṣṇa says that if one simply puts philosophical theories for some utopian ideas, "Now time is coming which will be like this, like that." No. Time is there already. You cannot manufacture time like this or like that. It will go on. It is eternal. It is eternal.
Just like Kṛṣṇa has said in the second chapter of Bhagavad-gītā that "Arjuna, you and me and all the soldiers and kings who have assembled here, it is not that we did not exist in the past. We are existing now, and we shall continue to exist in the future." So this eternity of the soul we do not know. We are simply identifying ourself with this body, and we are simply interested for the bodily comforts of life. This is the civilization, going on.
The modern theory, scientific theory, is that "The sun planet is only blazing fire. There cannot be any living entity." No, we don't believe that. Because śāstra says that "The living entity is never burned." Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam. Adāhyaḥ. Just like we sterilize by putting into the fire, but that does not mean the living entity is dead. No. Adāhyo 'yam: "It cannot be burned into fire." Acchedyo 'yam: "It cannot be cut into pieces." This information we get from Bhagavad-gītā. So in the sun planet, although it is blazing fire, there are living entities. They have got a particular type of body. That particular type of body is fiery. Just like you have got living entities in the sea. There are hundreds and thousands. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. There are nine lakhs, species of aquatic animals. But they are living in the water. They have got particular type of body. You cannot say, because you cannot live within the water, you cannot say, "No, no, there cannot be any living entity." This is nonsense. The living entities, another name is sarva-ga. He can live everywhere. It is not a fact that living entities live only in certain particular place. No. Sarva-ga, anywhere in God's creation there are living entities. This is shastric vision.
How the example? The example is kim anyat kāma-haitukam. Just like a man and woman, by chance they become lusty and have sex, and the woman becomes pregnant, and the child is coming, just like this is a creation, accidentally, accident. The man or woman becomes lusty accidentally, and there is sex and therefore the creation of the child. This is their theory, not that "This child is a living entity, and he is coming from his last birth, and he's taking particular type of body according to his last birth," no conclusion like that. "God is the judge what kind of body he should get." Daiva-netreṇa.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: When Kṛṣṇa steals or does anything, we glorify it because He is absolute. So the Māyāvādīs, they say that the living entities are also absolute. Is that correct?
Prabhupāda: No. That is a wrong theory. If Māyāvādī is absolute..., jīva is absolute, then why they have become conditioned? Why? What is the answer?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are dependent on some higher absolute.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it possible for one person to be part demon and part devotee in the same person?
Prabhupāda: If he's a devotee, he's not demon at all, if he's devotee.
So what is the nature of that Absolute Truth? Is it a dead body or a living body? There are two things, something dead and something living. So what is the nature of the absolute truth? So that is replied, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). Abhijñaḥ means cognizant, living. The Absolute Truth is not dead; it is living. We are pushing forward this theory.
The modern scientists, they are of opinion that life comes from matter. We say, "No, life comes from life. Matter comes from life." This is satyam. I do not know how they get Nobel Prize, putting forward a false theory that life comes from matter. The matter... So why don't you produce life in the laboratory? Matter is there. Chemicals are there. You mix them and produce a life. When some such chemist is inquired, "Whether you can produce life if I give you the chemicals?" they will immediately say, "That I cannot say." Then why do you speak like that? So this is asuric. If they accept that everything comes from the living being, then they will have to accept God. So they want to avoid this: "Everything matter." But that is not the fact. Origin is life. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Aham. Kṛṣṇa is life. He's not dead matter.
The modern scientists, philosophers, Western people, they don't accept that God is the creator of everything. And their theory of creation is the chemical composition. One gentleman has written one book, "Chemical Evolution." They think that chemical combination is the cause of life. So the asuras' theory of creation is aparaspara-sambhūtaṁ kim anyat kāma-haitukam. It is a chance theory, but we don't accept. We are preaching against them, writing books against them. We are challenging this atheistic theory of creation. So this asuric... The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is against the asuras. Every time, always, Kṛṣṇa also comes down to kill the asuras. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). (break) Asuras cannot flourish by their atheistic theory. Unless one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he has to be put into the different types of asuric yoni to suffer in this material world.
This is the atheistic theory, asatyam. They say that this material world is false. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Jagat, jagat means this cosmic manifestation which is gacchati, going. In the material world, everything is going. Just like in your city you see the cars, motor cars. They are going here and there, gacchati, very busy. Every man is going here and there. Similarly, the whole planetary system also, beginning from its birth up to the annihilation it is going, moving, orbit. It is going. Everything is going, moving. Even the sun, it has got its orbit. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta..., aśeṣa-tejāḥ, yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. The... Just like the earth has its orbit—it is rotating—similarly, every planet is rotating. The sun is also rotating. And so far I calculate, it is sixteen thousand miles per minute or second. I calculated once. The sun is rotating sixteen thousand miles either per minute or per second. I forget now.
So their theory, this atheistic theory, is aparaspara-sambhūtam. It has taken by mechanical arrangement. Kim anyat kāma-haitukam. Kāma. Just like kāma—a man, a woman becomes lusty, and there is sex, and there is production. So they say like that. The production is like that. There is no other plan. But there is a big plan. That they do not know. The plan is: yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham (BG 4.7). That is plan. But these rascal, this atheist class, they say, kim anyat kāma-haitukam: "Only lusty desires, that is the only reason. That is the only cause." The atheist class think like that, that "This birth is taking place due to our lusty desires, but we do not want to take responsibility. Then kill him. What is that?" Therefore they are making this abortion, killing of the child, as legal. The kāma... "We had some lusty desires, and we got it, but we don't want it. Kill it." That's all. This is going on. This is atheism. But it is not that. That child has come. It is a living entity. It desired a certain thing, and therefore he has given chance to take birth as human being or as cat, as dog. Kāma-haitukam.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot say it's by chance. And who is making this chance arrangement, that one is born so exalted, one is born so low? Then again we have to accept somebody is. So these are all foolish theories, "By chance, by kāma-haitukam." No, there is great arrangement. As the same... Just like the traffic control. There is a very big, great arrangement behind this. It is not by chance. By chance there has been not line, and they pass the car in certain line. No, it is not chance. How you can say, "chance"? So these theories are made by the demons. Read the purport.
Nitāi: "The demoniac conclude that the world is a phantasmagoria. There is no cause, no effect, no controller, no purpose: everything is unreal. They say that this cosmic manifestation arises due to chance material actions and reactions. They do not think that the world was created by God for a certain purpose. They have their own theory: that the world has come about in its own way and that there is no reason to believe that there is a God behind it. For them there is no difference between spirit and matter, and they do not accept the Supreme Spirit. Everything is matter only, and the whole cosmos is supposed to be a mass of ignorance."
Prabhupāda: Therefore they say chemical evolution. They cannot think of spirit.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they say chemical evolution. They cannot think of spirit. Go on.
Nitāi: "According to them, everything is void, and whatever manifestation exists is due to our ignorance in perception. They take it for granted that all manifestation of diversity is a display of ignorance. Just as in a dream we may create so many things which actually have no existence, so when we are awake we shall see that everything is simply a dream. But factually, although the demons say that life is a dream, they are very expert in enjoying this dream. And so, instead of acquiring knowledge, they become more and more implicated in their dreamland. They conclude that as a child is simply the result of sexual intercourse between man and woman, this world is born without any soul. For them it is only a combination of matter that has produced the living entities, and there is no question of the existence of the soul. As many living creatures come out from the perspiration and from a dead body without any cause, similarly, the whole living world has come out from the material combinations of the cosmic manifestation. Therefore material nature is the cause of this manifestation, and there is no other cause. They do not believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: (BG 9.10) 'Under My direction the whole material world is moving.' In other words, amongst the demons there is no perfect knowledge of the creation of this world; every one of them has a particular theory of his own. According to them, one interpretation of the scriptures is as good as another, for they do not believe in a standard understanding of the scriptural injunctions."
Prabhupāda: This is demonic. Now any question? (pause) This demonic conclusion will not help us. Then we shall remain in ignorance; there is no knowledge. Any question? Can you put any question on behalf of the demons? (laughter)
Kṛṣṇa says, "This confidential knowledge may not be explained to those who are not austere or devoted or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me." So Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He knows very well that there will be so many rascals who are envious of Him. Actually, everyone is trying... Because Bhagavad-gītā is very popular book of profound knowledge, everyone is trying to prove his own theory through the medium of Bhagavad-gītā, excluding Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. They want to kill Kṛṣṇa, demonic. Anyone who is trying to kill Kṛṣṇa, he's a demon. So to warn the devotees from these demons, this śloka was spoken by Kṛṣṇa Himself.
| Page Title: | Theory (Lectures, BG) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 23 of Nov, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=132, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 132 |