Hayagrīva: Concerning consciousness after death, Jung feels that after death the individual must pick up the level of consciousness which he left.
Prabhupāda: He continues.
Hayagrīva: The level of consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Continues.
Hayagrīva: Continues.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, according to that consciousness he has to accept a body. That is trasmigration of the soul. That ordinary person, they can only see the body, but along with the body there is mind and there is intelligence, there is ego. One cannot see what is mind, what is intelligence. So there is no reason that when the body is finished why the mind and the intelligence should be finished. But he cannot see the mind, cannot intell..., see the intelligence. He said everything is finished. Why everything should be finished? The body is finished, but the mind is not finished. So the soul is carried by mind, intelligence. That is subtle body. And it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). He is not finished, he is there. He is being carried by mind and intelligence. But these foolish person they cannot see. But even in lifetime they cannot see what is mind. They cannot see what is intelligence.
Hayagrīva: He says, "One's spiritual education must continue at the point he left off. If there were to be a conscious existence after death, it would, so it seems to me, have to continue on the level of consciousness attained by humanity, which in any age has an upper thought-variable limit."
Prabhupāda: That is clearly explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that the past consciousness, that passion, the consciousness is continuing. So even the body is destroyed, the consciousness continuing. So due to the consciousness he gets another body, and again, in that body, the future, past consciousness works. So, if, if, if in the past life he was a devotee, again he becomes devotee, and from the point where he died, the material body became destroyed, again, as soon as he gets a body, the same consciousness begins to work. Therefore we find somebody quickly accepts Kṛṣṇa consciousness and sometime it takes delay. So it is continued, past. In every verse we see that, just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Bahūnāṁ janmanaṁ ante means the consciousness is being continued but the body is changing. Therefore it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. Janma means to accept another gross body, but the consciousness is continuing. Just as Bhārata Mahārāja, he changed so many bodies but the consciousness continued. He remained in full understanding of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So this is clear, but on account of, I mean to say, dull brain they cannot understand. Here is the reason, that you do not see mind. You have not seen. So Mr. John you see daily, but we don't see Mr. John's intelligence. We can perceive that this man is intelligent, but you have not seen what is intelligent. When he talks, you understand, you perceive, that he has got intelligence. So this gross body, when it is no more talking, so why that intelligence will be finished? This is common sense. When a man talks we say he is intelligent man, but we do not see what is intelligent. So the talking instrument is this body. So this body is finished, gross body is finished, does it mean that his consciousness, intelligence finished? No. That continues. Just like you dream. This body is not working—this is practical—but his consciousness is working, his mind is working. So similarly, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). After the destruction of this gross body, the mind, intelligence continues, and because to work the mind and intelligence he requires a body, so he develops body. That is transmigration of the soul. It is very clear to understand.
Hayagrīva: Well he felt that the level of consciousness could not supersede whatever knowledge is available on this planet. I guess that's clear.
Prabhupāda: No, it can supersede, provided you get knowledge from authority. Just like somebody is sitting here, he has not seen India. But somebody who has full knowledge of India or seen or gone there, he can describe, and he can understand that there is place, India, the place is like this, like that. So similarly, from authority, just like Kṛṣṇa says, there is another nature: paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyaktaḥ avyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). That nature is eternal. Here, this nature as we find, it is not eternal. It is temporary. It takes birth, it is maintained for sometimes, it changes, it becomes old, and again destroyed, finished. And therefore in this material there is dissolution, but there is another world, which has no dissolution. That information we get from authority, Kṛṣṇa. Sanātanaḥ. Everything finished here, that is not finished. So we have to receive this knowledge from authority, not necessarily by your personal experience. Parokṣa, aparokṣa this is called. There are different stages of knowledge. Pratyakṣa, parokṣa, aparokṣa, adhokṣaja, aprākṛta. So that requires advancement of knowledge. So, not that all knowledge we can have by direct perception. That is not possible.
Hayagrīva: He says, "This is probably why earthly life is of such great significance and why it is that what a human being brings over at the time of his death is so important. Only here in life on earth can the general level of consciousness be raised. That seems to be man's metaphysical task." So since consciousness survives death it must therefore be elevated while man is on earth.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That consciousness should be developed automatically. Paurva-dehikam in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said. What is that verse? In the Sixth Chapter, paurva-dehikam.
Hari-śauri: "The unsuccessful yogi, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people or into a family of rich aristocracy."
Prabhupāda: Hm. Then?
Hari-śauri:
- atha vā yoginām eva
- kule bhavati dhīmatām
- etaddhi durlabhataraṁ
- loke janma yad īdṛśam
- (BG 6.42)
"Or he takes his birth in a family of transcendentalists who are surely great in wisdom. Verily, such a birth is rare in this world."
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Hari-śauri:
- tatra taṁ buddhi-saṁyogaṁ
- labhate paurva-dehikam
- (BG 6.43)
Prabhupāda: Dehikam.
Hari-śauri:
- yatate ca tato bhūyaḥ
- saṁsiddhau kuru-nandana
"On taking such a birth, he again revives the divine consciousness of his previous life, and he tries to make further progress in order to achieve complete success, O son of Kuru."
Prabhupāda: That is... When the, the incompleteness of his yoga practice, if he dies prematurely, or he could not finish and die, so the consciousness goes with him. So, in the next life again he begins from that point, paurva-dehikam. What is the exact word? Tatra? Buddhi...?
Hari-śauri: Buddhi-saṁyogam, revival.
Prabhupāda: Ah, buddhi-saṁyogam.
Hari-śauri: Revival of such consciousness.
Prabhupāda: The intelligence becomes revived, buddhi-saṁyogam. Then?
Hari-śauri: Labhate paurva-dehikam.
Prabhupāda: Ah, labhate paurva-dehikam. That is everything, spiritual and material. Materially also we find sometime when one person is very extraordinary individual. In the class some student picks up very quickly, some student cannot understand. So this is continuation. One is intelligent means he has got some previous revival of his consciousness. So in this way it is going on. That is the proof, immortality of the soul. Otherwise why? Paurva-dehikam, previous birth. This is the proof.
Hayagrīva: There's a lot of sort of interesting points here.
Prabhupāda: Hm. (break)
Hayagrīva: He points out that there's a paradox surrounding death. "On the one hand, from the point of view of the ego," or what we call the false ego, "death is a horrible catastrophe, a fearful piece of brutality. On the other hand, from the point of view of the psyche, the soul, death is a joyful event, in the life of eternity it is a wedding."
Prabhupāda: Yes. In all cases it is eternal, but it is, death is horrible for the person who is going to accept a lower grade of life, and it is pleasure for the devotee, that he is going back to home, back to God. That is the difference.
Hayagrīva: So it's not always a joyful event for the soul.
Prabhupāda: No.