Prabhupāda: So everyone has got a particular type of profession. The potter, the washerman, and the florist, the grain dealer, the silver or gold dealer, the banker, and... Everything. And the priest, and the warrior. So even in India still, there is no difficulty for draftboard. There is a class, kṣatriya; they will be very glad to be recruited as soldier. They are very strong. Jat. They are called jat, Gurkha. They don't like any other occupation. Fighting they like. The Sikhs. The Sikhs they are jat class, and the Gurkha, oh, the whole British Empire was extended with the help of the Sikhs and the Gurkhas. The Britishers took these Gurkhas and the Sikhs to Burma, to Messopotamia. They liquidated the Empire because they lost India. The British soldiers were not helping to keep up their Empire. These Indians soldiers. In the first war they gained for these Indian soldiers. They fought in France and everywhere very nicely. They are fighter class. They like to fight. And fighting is not going every day. So the arrangement was... Just like you have to fight for the state. So there is no monthly salary system. You are awarded by the government a certain tract of land free. You produce grains and utilize the land; no tax for you. But when there will be war, you shall fight. Very nice arrangement.
Soldiers (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: You know, there is, there were eighteen akṣauhiṇī senā, eighteen groups of akṣauhiṇī. One akṣauhiṇī, so many hundred thousands of soldiers, so many hundred thousands of chariots, so many hundred thousands of elephants, horses. That is one group. Such eighteen groups were present there. At least, to make a successful scene we require at least fifty elephants to make a show. And chariots. Then it will be something scenic. Bhagavad-gītā, I think, has not been attempted by any cinema company for this reason. It is very difficult to make arrangement for the war scene. This is not modern war. There are many modern war films. You can present that. But it is different kind of war. So if you want to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then these things will be required.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: As far as you require it. You require fooding. Yes, for maintaining your body. Not for satisfying the tongue. "This, I want to eat this, I want to eat that, I want to eat that." No. Eat something. Just maintain your body. That's all. You sleep just to keep yourself fit to work. Not that sleeping for twelve hours, fourteen hours. No. Six, seven, utmost eight. That's all. Then eating, sleeping, defending. That's also required. Defend yourself. Not to encroach upon other's property. Just like Hitler sending soldiers in others' country. Why? You defend your own country. That's all right. You defend your home. That is not prohibited. The śāstra allows it. If somebody comes to encroach upon your property, you kill him immediately. That is said. But not kill unnecessarily.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Liberated means at the present moment under this material, in this material world, he is accepting material body, and when he is bona fide servant of Kṛṣṇa, he'll be offered a spiritual body. Just like a soldier. A person, so long he's not a soldier, he does not, he is not awarded the uniform. But as soon as he accepts the service as a soldier, immediately he is given the uniform. So you are accepting different bodies in the material world, and that is bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You are accepting one type of body, it is becoming vāṇīshed, again you have to accept another.
Prabhupāda: That guru cannot be. That guru's designation is there in the Vedas, that tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). Anyone who is inquisitive for understanding... Suppose if you are inquisitive to understand really what is Lalaji, then you must approach to a person who knows Lalaji. Then you will understand Lalaji. And if you approach somebody who does not know Lalaji, then he may give you misinformation. So guru is that who knows Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise you will not be able to understand what is Kṛṣṇa. That Kṛṣṇa also very easily you can find out. Take what Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa teaches Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna directly. Now if you believe Arjuna, then you understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa taught Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, and why Arjuna was taught, that is also said by Kṛṣṇa, that bhakto 'si priyo 'si: (BG 4.3) "Because you are My devotee." Kṛṣṇa did not go to teach Bhagavad-gītā to a Vedantist. He went to teach to Arjuna. He was a family man, he was a soldier, but why he was selected? He, Kṛṣṇa said, bhakto 'si. So if you approach a Kṛṣṇa bhakta like Arjuna, then you will understand Kṛṣṇa; otherwise you will not. They are understanding Kṛṣṇa through me, not before me. But if they or some of them, "something," some of them "something," they may be very big scholar, but they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That is the point. Our advancement means the more we meet opposing elements, "Oh, that is alright." Therefore preacher is the best devotee because he is a soldier. Just like government gives all importance to the fighting soldier. When there is war, all comforts for the soldier first, then the civil people. There was no butter in Germany, there was no butter. But the soldiers were profusely supplied with butter. And sometimes when the enemy attacks, they throw it away and go away and go to another shelter and still there is butter. That my Godbrother (indistinct) when he first came to India I asked him that, "I heard that you German people are very robust, stout and strong, why you are so thin and weak?" So he replied me in this way that, "In my childhood when I was eight years old weekly I was getting butter for (indistinct)". Everything was controlled, even for children. But the soldiers, there was no control. So that is, my point is, that those who are soldiers, fighting on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, they are brave soldiers. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). Kṛṣṇa says, "Nobody is dearer than him who is in the process of preaching this Bhagavad-gītā." So, in order to become very dear to Kṛṣṇa... Actually that is the position. So we must preach in that way—by our literature, by our magazine, by our books, by our speech, by our arrangements. Of course, very peacefully, we are not very (indistinct), becoming violent (indistinct). But by argument, by words, by our methods, by our preaching, we have to convince.
Prabhupāda: So, religion, very simple—I am talking with that man over there—religion means the laws of God. Simple definition. And one who follows the laws of God, he is religious. It doesn't matter whether he is Christian, whether he is Hindu, whether he is Muslim. It doesn't matter. Take, for example, your Christian religion. Lord Jesus Christ says "Thou shalt not kill", but I think cent percent of the Christian people, they are very much engaged in killing. So there are, I mean, disobeying the laws of God. Don't you think? What is..., what is the value? And if you disobey the laws of God, then what is your religion? It is simply show. God says, or God's representative, God's son, Jesus Christ says, that "Thou shalt not kill," but the whole Christian world, the killing art is very much favored. Maintaining slaughterhouse, shooting in sports, and creating (indistinct), and so many things, simply killing. And any film shown, when it is killing film as is very much popular. Shooting film is very popular. I see in your park the soldiers killing. This, this park I was passing. What is that park?
Devotee: Prospect Park.
Prabhupāda: Prospect Park. There is big gate, because there is a killing picture.
Devotee: Yes. Praising the soldiers.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee: Praising the soldiers.
Prabhupāda: So, in this way... Of course soldiers killing and ordinary killing is not the same, but my point is that..., that God gives you the law that you shall not kill. Now if..., if you are violating that law, then how you can become religious? That is my question.
Guest (1): Grace is, is nonviolence, nonkilling.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is
- ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
- varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ
- svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
- saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
- (SB 1.2.13)
You may be industrial administrator, you may be engineer, you may be something else, but you make your profession perfect. And that perfection is achieved by satisfying the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your profession. Just like Arjuna. He was a soldier. He knew how to fight. So by his profession he satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wanted that there should be fight between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas for right cause. And Kṛṣṇa came-paritrāṇāya sādhunaṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam (BG 4.8). He had two business: to give protection to the devotees and to kill the demons. So by Kṛṣṇa's will sometimes all the demons, they come together and fight with one another and they are killed.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: He's thinking that he's happy. He's spoiling his life. (pause) Divā cārthehayā rājan kuṭumba-bharaṇena vā (SB 2.1.3). Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api, teṣāṁ pramatto nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati (SB 2.1.4). Dehāpatya. Deha means body. Apatya means children. Dehāpatya-kalatra. Kalatra means wife. Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣu. He thinks: "They are my soldiers. I'll fight with nature, struggle for existence. And they'll save me." Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api. Although he knows that they'll not exist, still he's so mad, teṣāṁ pramatto nidhanam, he knows I'll not exist, the soldiers will not be able to help me. paśyann api na paśyati, he sees and still he does not see. Paśyann api na paśyati. He knows by practical experience that "This society, friendship, love, nation, nobody can save me." But still he thinks that "They'll save me." Just like when you, in the aeroplane, there may be thousands of aeroplanes, others, but when your aeroplane is in danger, nobody can save you.
Prabhupāda: Finished. Everyone in the United Nations pressed on them: "Why you are colonizing? Why you are occupying so much land? You give up." They were obliged. And there was great national movement of Gandhi. So all United Nations pressed that: "They're wanting to avoid you. Why you are, by force, staying there?" Still, they would not go. But when the soldiers began to join the national movement, they gave it up. "Now we cannot rule it." How very nasty! For their political power, they did so many heinous activities in India. That's a great history. For selling their cotton goods, India's weavers were cut this finger so that they cannot weave. This is there in the history.
Prabhupāda: After sixth year... Yes novelists. So the relationship was very nice. There were... Otherwise, how the Britishers could rule, unless there was obedience. But as soon as they saw now the obedience is going on, the soldiers are leaving our camp and joining the national camp," immediately they decided to leave peacefully. Otherwise, there would be some revolution. At that time, all good relationship will go. Better separate with good relation. This was Attlee's policy, to convince statesmen like Churchill that: "You cannot rule over India any more. Better separate in good relationship."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the basis that life started from matter. They are thinking that this is the body.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to make very strong propaganda against this theory. Otherwise if you sleep only and take doctorate title, what is the use? You have to fight against these rascals. Make your soldier's party and start fighting against these rascals. No more toleration. No more silence. What is that sound?
Brahmānanda: Oh, it's a power saw. They are going to cut the wood.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If we publish that the original source is life, then everybody has to accept it that the... Everybody has to accept Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee (2): So one doesn't have to give up his...
Prabhupāda: No. Arjuna was a soldier, he was a fighter. The battlefield was there, the war was there, everything was there. He did not... He took to Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean he gave up the field and went away. He remained there, but simply the consciousness was changed. He was not willing to fight on his own account. He changed his opinion, "Yes, now I shall fight. By Your grace, my all doubts are now gone." This is required, this is perfection. And there's the picture how Kṛṣṇa is guiding Arjuna. When the ranks are formed.
Devotees and David Wynne: Yes.
Prabhupāda: "Just here. Just here."
Prabhupāda: He died, but became victorious. Yes. I think during Queen, last Elizabeth's time, or something...?
David Wynne: Yes. The last words: "England expects that every man this day will do his duty." And all that. He was a hero because he died young, I think.
Prabhupāda: Maybe. I do not know. But Nelson, Lord Nelson, was famous man, soldier.
Śyāmasundara: Now the pigeons are sitting on his head.
David Wynne: I have just come from Morocco. I've been with the King of Morocco, who is... It's very strange because he is an absolute ruler, and when an ordinary man is an absolute ruler, it's rather dangerous.
Prabhupāda: No. If the man is really Kṛṣṇa's representative, then it is all right.
David Wynne: Yeah.
Śyāmasundara: Is he a pious man?
David Wynne: In the Bhagavad-gītā, he still had to... But it didn't matter him killing if it was Kṛṣṇa's responsibility?
Prabhupāda: No. Fighting or killing, when it is done for, under the guidance of Kṛṣṇa, that is a different thing.
David Wynne: Yeah, I see.
Prabhupāda: Just like a soldier fights on behalf of the king, and the more he kills, he gets medal. The same soldier, as soon as kills one man, he's hanged. He cannot say, the soldier, that "In the battlefield I killed hundreds and hundreds men and I was rewarded. Now I have killed only one man, I am being hanged? What is this?" Why? He's hanged. Because he killed on his own account.
David Wynne: There's the thing.
Prabhupāda: And in the battlefield he killed on the state's account. He was rewarded. So there is difference between killing.
David Wynne: Yeah.
Guest (7): How does one find out that this act is pleasing Kṛṣṇa or not?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (7): For example, a soldier fighting in a war...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you have got to talk with Kṛṣṇa...
Guest (8): Or somebody...
Prabhupāda: Just like Arjuna talked.
Guest (8): No, I mean, for example, you know, somebody dropping bomb in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. How does he know...?
Prabhupāda: No, you cannot drop. You cannot drop.
Guest (8): Traitors. And what about the Vidura? Why he went away?
Prabhupāda: Vidura was neutral. He left home when he understood that "Fighting is now inevitable. They'll fight. Why shall I remain here?" He left home. And Kṛṣṇa also said that "I will not fight. I'll not fight because this is family quarrel. I am known to every one of you. We are related. So I cannot take this side or that side. I may be..." He divided... He, by tricks... His soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. So Duryodhana preferred, Duryodhana preferred His soldiers, that "Why shall I take this one man. I'll take His soldiers." And Arjuna said, "No, I want Kṛṣṇa." So Kṛṣṇa said, "Although I'm going to your side, but I'll not fight. Mind that." And, "Never mind, You don't fight." Mahābhārata is very nice. "Greater India." Mahābhārata means "The History of Greater India." Mahābhārata. Mahā means "greater."
Guest (8): That inspired the devotees, really, like anything, and...
Mother: And then they came, when Dunkirk was evacuated, they came back in all these little boats that they escaped in, and they got together and they billeted them... And I was living with my godmother in Sholden (?) in Devonshire. And we had eight acres. And the Army put up huts for them. And they lived there for about eight months until more Indians were sent to make them back to strength again, the regiments, big enough. And then they went overseas again. Some went to Burma, some to Italy. I don't know where they went, of course, but they were very good...
Prabhupāda: They went to die, after all.
Mother: They were very good soldiers. No, they didn't all die. Of course, some did, I expect.
Prabhupāda: Some, (laughs) yes.
Mother: But they were, they were very fine men.
Jesuit Priest: Well, anyhow, thank you very much, father, for letting us talk and for letting us listen to you.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Because the process is devotion, bhakti. Bhakti means not idle. Activities. Bhakti is not idle gossip. It is something, activity. Therefore karmīs sometimes misunderstand that they are working like us. So where is the... what does it mean, bhakti? Just like Arjuna is fighting. But ordinary man will see that he's a soldier, he's fighting. What is this bhakti? But Kṛṣṇa certifies: "Yes, you are My devotee." By fighting, he's devotee. Because he's fighting for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is bhakti. Similarly, by the order of Kṛṣṇa, whatever you do, that is bhakti. Karmīs cannot see. Karmīs see... (break) ...tiki, laukikī, vaidikī. Laukikī means material activities. And vaidikī means according to Vedic instruction. Whatever you do, if it is done for Kṛṣṇa, then it is bhakti.
Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: All the leaders they are teaching simply to live like cats and dogs, that's all. What is the business of cats and dogs? Eat, sleep, have sex life and die and defend. What is the difference in this minister? The defense minister is defending. The cats and dogs also defend. Why minister? They have taken it very important.
Guest: In some way even the cats and dogs are better, they defend better.
Prabhupāda: Yes, without money, without soldiers, they have got nails.
Devotee:: Cats and dogs have weapons built-in.
Guest: And more over (indistinct) and they are loyal, you see?
Prabhupāda: So, we are thinking now we have got defense measure with atomic bomb, we are now advanced. But what is that advancement? That defense method is there even with cats and dogs. What you have done beyond this? They have no brain. Everyone is spoiling life with these four principles of how to eat, how to sleep. Eating...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Prof. Wolfe: And we cannot help doing that.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to become servant of Kṛṣṇa; you are not responsible. Just like government servant, police, and military kills, but he's not responsible. He's not responsible. Their business is killing, soldiers, but they are rewarded: "Oh, thank you very much. Take this title." Just Arjuna, just like Arjuna killed on the order of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa gave him cert..., bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: (BG 4.3) "You are My very dear friend. You are my devotee." So we have to act by the order of the Supreme. Then we are not responsible. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: This Subhash Chandra Bose. And he organized the INA, Indian National Army. So when this Indian National Army was organized and the Britishers... They were great politicians. They saw, "Now the army is going to national movement. We cannot be." Then they left. Because it was not possible. They were maintaining British Empire with Indian money, Indian men. You see? They did not conquer by their British soldiers all round the Far East, Burma and the Mesopotamia, and the Egypt. That was Indian army, the Sikh soldiers and the Gurkha soldiers, and Indian money. On the pretext that "For Indian protection, we are maintaining this army." Actually, they were expanding their empire. Africa, Burma. And when they saw that "India is lost," voluntarily they liquidated all others. Went back... Back to home, back to Godhead. (devotees laugh) So in politics this is nonsense, non-violence. It is nonsense, cowardism. In politics in sweet words you cannot get.
Bahulāśva: Yes. That is in Tijuana.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Brahmānanda told me. People have become so degraded. They make regular show, how sex life can be enjoyed with animals.
Bahulāśva: That is abominable.
South American Devotee: In South of Argentina, the soldiers, they have sex life with different animals. The army. When they are so long alone without..., and they have...
Prabhupāda: The government allow?
South American Devotee: Oh yeah.
Prabhupāda: It is legal. Just see. Where it is?
South American Devotee: South Argentina.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: They agree. Then automatically, slaughterhouse will be closed. If there is no customer for meat, then slaughterhouse will be closed. Just like Gandhi started this movement, non-cooperation, "Don't cooperate with the British government." That was his... Because the Britishers were ruling India with the cooperation of the Indians. Otherwise, how they could rule? The soldiers were Indian, the police were Indian, the secretariat, office, clerks, they were Indians—all Indians. But they manufactured in such a way that they were cooperating. So Gandhi took the route that "You non-cooperate; then the Britishers will automatically go away." That was his movement. Similarly, if we educate public that "You must find out a leader who is free from these sinful activities. Then you will be happy. And you also give up. Otherwise, how you will be able to select such a leader?" This should be our real propaganda. Otherwise they will think that "They're against our real joyful life. So these men are useless." You have to explain that "If these things, sinful activities, you prolong, then you cannot become happy."
Prabhupāda: You cannot deny Him. That is surrender. Then, when he understood Bhagavad-gītā he said "Yes, I shall do that." So long I deny Kṛṣṇa that is disunity, and as soon as I agree, "Kṛṣṇa, yes." Then this unity. Unity does not mean that Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna become united, homogeneous. No. Kṛṣṇa is distinct and Arjuna. They continue to exist. In the beginning Arjuna was denying to fight. That is dependence(?), and at the end when he said, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), my illusion is now over. That is (indistinct). Unity does not mean one's self loses individuality. That is cannot, that cannot be. Kṛṣṇa says that "both you and me and all these soldiers and Kings they existed before, now we are existing and we shall exist in future(?). So, that individuality is always kept. So unity means agreeing with the order of Kṛṣṇa, and disunity means not agreeing with the order. Otherwise your existence(?), mine and Kṛṣṇa's existence, always will be.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Nārakī.
Nitāi: ...if he considers the Deity...
Prabhupāda: Nārakī.
Nitāi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Arcye viṣṇau... (break) ...when it will teach military art, with tilaka, soldiers will, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa..." (laughter) We want that. Marching with military band, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." You maintain this idea. Is it not good?
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: When there will be military march of Kṛṣṇa conscious soldiers. Anyone who does not believe in Kṛṣṇa, "Blam!" (laughter) Yes. The same process as the Mohammedans did, with sword and Koran, we'll have to do that. "Do you believe in Kṛṣṇa or not?" "No, sir." "Blam!" Finished. (laughter, Prabhupāda laughs) What do you think, Madhudviṣa Mahārāja? Is that all right?
Madhudviṣa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like the prisoners. They are also maintained by government. And those who are not prisoners, they are also maintained by government. The prisoners are outlaw. They do not recognize the government. That is prisoner, criminals. But both of them are provided by the government. And so far individuality is concerned, that is mentioned in the Second Chapter. Kṛṣṇa said that "You, Me, and all these soldiers and kings, they were before existing like this, they're existing now like this, and they'll continue to exist." So individuality's always. Kṛṣṇa never said that "After this, we shall become a homogeneous mass." Never says. Individual.
Prabhupāda: ...earth, earth, and pāla means kings. Protectors, rāja-pāla.
Dr. Patel: Our rāja-pāla, Giri. (break)
Girirāja: "All the sons of Dhṛtarāṣṭra along with their allied kings, and Bhīṣma, Droṇa and Karṇa, and all our soldiers are rushing into Your mouths, their heads smashed by Your fearful teeth. I see that some are being crushed between Your teeth as well."
Prabhupāda: (break) ...leaders, they are entering into the mouth of the kāla just like insects. "Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat!" Although within their lifetime they were very, very big leaders, but they are entering into the mouth of the kāla just like insects and flies. That's it. (break) ...plans, but there is no plan how to stop...
Dr. Patel: Death.
Prabhupāda: He was thinking, "Oh, why shall I kill?"
Dr. Patel: "If I don't fight, they will live."
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is already planned. So even if you don't kill, it is there already.
Girirāja: (reads synonyms for following verse:) "Translation: The Blessed Lord said: Time I am, destroyer of the worlds, and I have come to engage all people. With the exception of you, the Pāṇḍavas, all the soldiers here on both sides will be slain."
Dr. Patel: Shall I read further, sir, or you want to comment?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The process is going on. Although we have got so many plans to save, nobody can be saved. The destination, the bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19), that will go on. Simply vīta-rāga-bhaya-krodhā man-mayā mām upāśritāḥ (BG 4.10), they will be saved. Otherwise all finished.
Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? (break)
Prabhupāda: Yes. He wishes sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. This is our duty, not that "I have got that duty, that duty, that duty." That duty, that duty will not save you. They will be destroyed. Dehāpatya-kalatrādi. This is explained in Bhāgavata.
- dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣu
- ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api
- pramattaḥ tasya nidhanaṁ
- paśyann api na paśyati
- (SB 2.1.4)
We are attached, deha, this body. Apatya, children. Dehāpatya-kalatrādi, wife. Kala... Because we increase through the wife, kalatrādi. Dehāpatya-kalatrādisu ātmā-sainyesu. We are thinking that "They are my soldiers. They will save me from the clutches of death." Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma..., asatsv api. They are not permanent. So although they are not permanent, they will be killed, I am thinking, "They will save me, my soldiers." So pramatta, this thought comes on account of becoming pramatta. Prakṛṣta-rūpena matta, mad. Yes. Pramatta tasya nidhanam. The plan is: everyone will be destroyed. Tasya nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati. Although he has got experience that "So many relatives, so many friends, so many family men, they have all died, they could not save me, and what these, my wife, children and others, will save me?" But because he is pramatta, paśyann api na paśyati, even though he sees, he does not see.
Dr. Patel: German. All of them.
Prabhupāda: No, not Germany. Not Germany. Germany never tried for colonization.
Dr. Patel: Belgium, such a small thing, they have half of the Central Africa like a pyramid standing on its tip. (break)
Prabhupāda: Britishers were maintaining the British Empire at the cost of India. Soldiers, money...
Dr. Patel: Indian Army was Indian Civil totally. Even today it is so. Indian Army fought... (break)
Prabhupāda: Pathans, Sikhs, they fought so nicely.
Dr. Patel: This Mount Hazenot(?) battle, which I read very...
Prabhupāda: (break) (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa.
O'Grady: I am the first statement. "I am confused about my duty," that what is the... Thank you.
Nitāi: "...and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am..."
O'Grady: This duty, this duty, is this duty to the self or duty to others or duty to the state?
Prabhupāda: He is confused because he was a kṣatriya, soldier. A soldier's duty is to fight with the enemy. So Kṛṣṇa was advising him, "The opposite party is your enemy. You are a kṣatriya. Why you are trying to become non-violent? This is not good." Therefore he says, "Actually I am now confused. So in confusion I cannot take the right conclusion. I therefore accept You as my spiritual master. You just give me the proper lesson." This is the point. So they were friends. Still, he was confused. So in chaotic condition, in confusion status of life, we must approach the person who is in full knowledge of the things. Just like you go to a lawyer, you go to a physician; similarly, every one of us in the material world, we are confused. Therefore we must go to the spiritual master who can give us real knowledge.
Prabhupāda: No, this is the..., that you do it. If they do not do it, then who will come? This declaration is there, that "If you do this, then you can be interested." But if you do not, then you go on with your own business. A similar... The same things Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parit... mām ekam. Kṛṣṇa is demanding that you do it, "Surrender unto Me." The śāstra also says, "Surrender unto the representative of Kṛṣṇa," mahīyasām. But if they do not do, what can be done? Just see this sparrow. The sex is always accompanying, any time ready. The pigeons, any time ready. Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. That is the only attachment for this material world, viṣaya. Whole world is fighting for this viṣaya. "I must have nice eating, I must have nice sleeping, I must have very good sex, and I should be defended by bank balance, by military soldiers, by police force, by atomic weapons." This is going on. Defense. Rascal does not understand that "In spite of all these things, I will have to change the body, and the same thing will be available again, in a different way." This intoxication, cigarettes. The ant, the small ant, they are very fond of intoxication. You know that? As soon as there is information, "On the top of the skyscraper building, there is a grain of sugar," they will go. (laughing) Because sugar contains intoxication. The wine is made from sugar, molasses. It has got the intoxication. You keep a grain of sugar there, and there will be hundreds and thousands... (laughter) Gold rush. Study. You see what is the difference of this civilization and the ant civilization, dog civilization, cat civilization. No difference. It is in the simply formation only.
Satsvarūpa: Watchtower?
Prabhupāda: Watchtower. Yes.
Guru-gaurāṅga: They did a survey among the Catholic priests...
Prabhupāda: What is this? They do not fight. Why there is soldier? (laughter) What nonsense. Why there are soldiers? The neutral? 1939. This is Second World War. And First World War, 19...
Yogeśvara: (reading) "Dedicated to the soldiers of Geneva who died in the service of their country."
Prabhupāda: So that means it was attacked?
Guru-gaurāṅga: Probably defending banks or things like that. Civil.
Prabhupāda: Two wars, 1914 to 1918.
Swiss Devotee: They have big military poems. Yes.
Karandhara: The Zen school is a liberalization of the old Buddhist doctrines. Previously, hundreds of years ago, to completely follow the Buddhist path one had to renounce all activity. He had to go away from civilization and live in hermitage. Zen...
Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa. Finish everything.
Karandhara: Yes. Zen allows a man... According to the precepts of Zen, you can act within the world. You can be a businessman, you can be a soldier, you can be anything, and still attain the same state of perfection by acting without desire, by acting unattached to the results.
Prabhupāda: So that is our philosophy. We... Arjuna acted as soldier, and still, he was recognized as devotee. (French)
Bhagavān: What is the use of practice, if you practice or you don't practice you still get the same result?
Prabhupāda: No, practice must be there. You cannot avoid practice. We also practice.
Prabhupāda: So he was thinking in terms of designations, that "I am... I belong to the same family. The other side, they are my cousin-brothers. They belong to the same family. So why shall I fight? Let them enjoy." From material point of view it is very good man. But Kṛṣṇa condemned him. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān: (BG 2.11) "You are talking very high words, but you are fool number one." That is the first, because he was talking on the platform of this bodily concept of life. But after hearing Bhagavad-gītā, when he understood that "I am not this body; I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. My duty is to obey the orders of Kṛṣṇa," then he fought. Superficially, he remained the same soldier. But in the beginning he was a soldier for his designation of this body, and later on, he became a soldier to carry out the order of the Supreme. That is the difference. So when we act to carry out the orders of the Supreme, that is self-realization, not for this body.
Prabhupāda: So we offer Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants: "Give me this foodstuff," so we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and we take it. Therefore, if for killing this patraṁ puṣpam there is sin, that is Kṛṣṇa's sin, not my sin. (German) But Kṛṣṇa, God, apāpa-viddham, sinful reaction cannot take place to Him. Apāpa-viddham. Pāpa means sinful. Just like the sun is powerful. It can absorb urine, but you cannot drink urine. (German) So the injunction is tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). One who is very powerful... Just like a king. He orders, "Kill this man. Murder." He commits murder regularly, chopped up. But he is not under the law, being hanged, because he is very powerful. But an ordinary man, if he commits murder, he will be hanged. When there is fight the commander in chief says, "You kill them," and the soldier kills and he gets gold medal. But the same soldier, when he kills a single person at home, he is hanged. Therefore this injunction, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), "This vegetables give Me. I shall eat, and you take the prasādam." So we are not sinful.
Brahmānanda: They showed the two bodies coming together.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Brahmānanda: I think the picture of the two bodies...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that "You and Me and all these soldiers, we existed before, we are existing now, and we shall exist in this way in the future." Where does He say that "We shall be mixed up"? He never says. And these rascals, they have got so many parties, the same thing. Where do you get this idea? There is sayujya-mukti, but Kṛṣṇa never says that "You take it." All this Ramakrishna Mission, all these, this (indistinct), he gives the example that rivers come from different sources, but when it comes to the ocean it is mixed up. Why don't you see within the water? Within the water there are big, big fishes, they do not mix up with the water. They see superficially the water. This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). Our philosophy is "Come. Come here, play with Kṛṣṇa as cowherd boy. Come here, dance with Kṛṣṇa as gopī. Come here, accept Kṛṣṇa as your son, Kṛṣṇa will accept you as His mother." There will be always two, and enjoy, any way. Even as enemy, demon displaying part of enemy, Kṛṣṇa killing, that is also pastime too.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very nice, Purañjana. His city, his gates, various manifestation.
Devotee (4): Sometimes we are very encouraged because we find people, they come back to us. They say, "I have gotten this volume, and I'd like to have the first part" or "I'd like to have the Second Canto." I found that in the army base among the soldiers... I went to distribute at an army base with the soldiers. And one man saw me, and he came up, and he says, "Can I have the Second Canto? I liked the first one so much." It's enlivening for us.
Prabhupāda: Sometimes they come and demand.
Tripurāri: More books, yes.
Prabhupāda: That is good.
Devotee (1): There is one very wealthy man in Atlanta who... We went and did a nice presentation at his home. And then afterwards we distributed prasādam and had a nice bhajana, kīrtanas. Then afterwards he bought the whole set of literatures and gave a hundred dollar donation for all of the literatures, and he has them now.
Prabhupāda: Yes. For an American gentleman one hundred dollars is nothing.
Devotee (3): One nice boy in the airport, he was a soldier boy. He had, like read a Kṛṣṇa trilogy, and he was coming through the airport, and I approached him. And he immediately saw the books, and he immediately wanted one. And I didn't even have to ask him for the donation. Automatically he gave $20. And then I was walking down the hall, and I saw him again, and he came running up to me again, and he said, "Here, you're doing such a wonderful thing. Let me give you another $20." And somebody walked by as I was giving him another book, and they said, "Don't take that book. It's a rip-off.
Tripurāri: Sometimes the Christians are distributing papers still at the airports. We invite them to come and take prasāda with us every day.
Prabhupāda: They come?
Tripurāri: They are reluctant. Some, one or two, come.
Devotee (2): Every once in awhile someone we meet when we're distributing books comes and joins us for prasādam, one time a businessman and one time a soldier. Various people sometimes join us. We take a 12 o'clock, 12:30 lunch break. Sometimes we'll be joined by one of these people we distribute books to.
Prabhupāda: When you were with Maharishi? Come here.
Doug: I joined the Maharishi in 1969, and at that time I was living in Washington, D.C. And his national director came, gave a lecture, and they said that they needed some help because they didn't have a center there. So I organized the movement out of my parents' house. I had the center, and I established lectures at all the colleges and started the movement there. And later on, they finally sent some full-time teachers, and they established a center there. And then I started to be with Maharishi and his different courses and doing extensive meditations for long periods of time. And then eventually he formed a committee.
Prabhupāda: So when that cooperation was withdrawn, naturally they could not... They were trying to the last point, but when the Subhas Bose's organization, INA... You have studied that Indian history. Yes. INA. Indian National Army. So this National Army was formed by Subhas Candra Bose outside India with the cooperation of Hitler and Tojo. He's formed that, what is called, Indian government outside India, the INA, the soldiers... The INA soldiers means all the soldiers that were arrested in the battlefield, they were given to Subhas Candra Bose, either by the Japanese or by the Germans. So the soldiers took this opportunity; they voluntarily surrendered to the enemy. So when the Britishers understood that the soldiers, Indian soldiers, are now noncooperating, then they decided, "No, no more. It is not possible." So they voluntarily withdrew, that Sir Sirpiting(?) Lawrence, the secretary of state for India. Then they voluntarily settled up. And they settled up means the last parting kick was partition-Pakistan and India. And they partitioned in such a way that these two people will fight everlong.
Prabhupāda: That means you have become more than Kṛṣṇa. One who states like that, he has become more than Kṛṣṇa.
Viṣṇujana: Yes, they believe that.
Pañcadraviḍa: Not more than Kṛṣṇa. Same as Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Oh, he's not... He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says that "My dear Arjuna, you, Me, and all these soldiers, they existed before, and they're existing now, and they will exist in the future." So where is merging? Merging is suiciding. It is a spiritual suicide. Disgusted with these material affairs... Just like sometimes a man, being disgusted with this material world, he commits suicide, so this merging is also a kind of suicide.
Pañcadraviḍa: But Brahman always exists.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pañcadraviḍa: Brahman always exists. We're not, we're not saying that Brahman stops existing. So these, the living entities...
Santoṣa: That verse, aparyāptaṁ bhīmābhirakṣitam.
Prabhupāda: Yes?
Santosa: They make so many interpretations of that word, aparyaptam.
Prabhupāda: How they can...? Aparya... It is... The other party says that "Bhīma is not so expert fighter." He was speaking to Bhīṣmadeva that "You are so nice, expert commander. Bhīma is not so expert commander. Therefore even they have got some soldiers, they'll not be properly guided." This is the real meaning. How you can interpret? What is their interpretation?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are simply making excuses.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But in the end they'll have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: They are... Friendship.
Prabhupāda: No. Side by side. If the war is started from India...
Rūpānuga: So India will become...
Prabhupāda: And the Russians are ready here already, I have heard, with soldiers and... Not soldiers. I mean to say.
Haṁsadūta: Missiles.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are also vigilant.
Viṣṇujana: Will that help our preaching, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Preaching will be very nice after the war when both of them, especially Russia, will be finished.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that the various farm projects that we have would be very good because, as you said, the cities would be bombed, but the farms would not be disturbed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The farm project... Even some hundreds of years, it was so nice. Even there was war, they would not attack the farmers. Rather, they would ask, "Where the other party has gone?" So they will say: "Oh, we have seen some soldiers going this way." That's all. They were not affected. That was the principle. Farmers were not attacked, just like at the present moment, the law is the civilians are not attacked. The military target is attacked. That is the law. But they do all nonsense. Even at the present moment civilians are not attacked. Just like Kurukṣetra Battle. It was taken far away from the civilian inhabitation.
Haṁsadūta: Some field.
Prabhupāda: No. The Bangladesh, they were Bengalis. Although the whole Pakistan, including Bangladesh and the other part, West Pakistan, East Pakistan, Bangladesh... So actually, Bangladesh is bigger than West Pakistan. They should have taken the government, majority. But the West Pakistan, by force they were ruling. They are not majority. So after all, they are Bengalis, maybe Muslim. They're intelligent than these Punjabis. Punjabis, they have got bodily strength, not brain. So these Bengalis, in Mujjhamat Raman, that was his demands, that: "We are majority. Why they should govern us? We should govern over them." This is the movement. So, but they're already in power. So how to throw them out of power? So he negotiated in India, that: "You help us to separate from..." And India's interest is that Pakistan becomes weak by separation, that is India's interest. So India agreed to help them. How to help? They organized a false, er, soldiers. You know? What is called? Bahini. Mean a freedom soldier. They organized freedom soldier. And India consulted Russia. Russia was friendly, that: "We want to help Bangladesh." So they said: "Yes, you help. If there is fight, then we shall help you." This was the... So these bahini, sanan bahini, sandana bahini, or something like that, they organized, "freedom soldiers." The freedom soldier means Indian soldiers. They entered Bangladesh because East Bengal, West Bengal. And they started this freedom soldier. But this is Indian soldier. Pakistan could understand that, that where this Bangladesh will get so nice soldiers? It is Indian soldiers. So when the movement was increasing, then Pakistan was in a very precarious condition. So they wanted American help. The Americans also said: "Yes." So they got American planes, American... to crush down this Bangladesh. And the Bangladesh means Indian soldiers. So later on it was discovered. So Pakistan attacked directly India. That was to go on, increase. But when the Americans were helping, these Pakistani, the Russians also came. So it was going to be a, the same, Third World War, immediately. So Americans considered something, that: "Let us take some time." Therefore the war was stopped. Otherwise it was already started. That policy is going on.
Prabhupāda: Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī (BG 6.1). Anāśritaḥ kar... Everyone is expecting some good result for his sense gratification. That is āśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ. He has taken the shelter of good result. But one who does not take shelter of the result of activities... It is my duty. Karyam. Karyam means "It is my duty. Doesn't matter what is the result. I must do it sincerely to my best capacity. Then I don't care for the result. Result is in Kṛṣṇa's hand." Karyam: "It is my duty. My Guru Mahārāja said it, so it is my duty. It doesn't matter whether it is successful or not successful. That depends on Kṛṣṇa." In this way, anyone, if he works, then he is a sannyāsī. Not the dress, but the attitude of working. Yes, that is sannyāsa. Karyam: "It is my duty." Sa sannyāsī ca yogī ca. He is yogi, first-class yogi. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna officially, he did not take sannyāsa. He was a gṛhastha, soldier. But when he took it very seriously, karyam—"Kṛṣṇa wants this fight. Never mind I have to kill my relatives. I must do it"—that is sannyāsa. First of all he argued with Kṛṣṇa that "This kind of fighting is not good, family killing...," and so on, so on, so on. He argued. But after hearing Bhagavad-gītā, when he understood that "It is my duty. Kṛṣṇa wants me to do it." Karyam. So in spite of his becoming a householder, a soldier, he's a sannyāsī. He took it-karyam. Karyam means "It is my duty." That is real sannyāsa. "Kṛṣṇa wants that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must be spread. So this is my karyam. This is my duty. And the direction is my spiritual master. So I must do it." This is sannyāsa. This is sannyāsa, sannyāsa mentality. But there is formality. That should... That may be accepted.
Amogha: Bhūtejya.
Prabhupāda: What benefit is there? A soldier has died. So what is the use of having a tree, having a plate?
Amogha: This will make us remember how much our countrymen...
Prabhupāda: What benefit is there by remembering?
Paramahaṁsa: Well the family feels honored that there is a tree here for a son of their's.
Prabhupāda: What benefit do they derive?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, they can come and see it.
Prabhupāda: Do they think that man who has died is still there?
Amogha: Next time when there is a war, then they will feel more inclined to fight, knowing that there may be a tree for them.
Prabhupāda: It means, this is government deceiving. The man is not there. And even if he is there, suppose the soldier after dying for his country has become a tree, is it a very good reward? (laughter) How foolishly they are thinking. We have to point out their foolishness. That is our business. They are working very hard, undoubtedly, but they are working foolishly. Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). The result is simply they are becoming tired. That's all. Because they are not working intelligently, like monkey, he is busy all day. What is the value of your busy? You'll find the monkey is never sitting idle. He's always busy, "eḥ, eh, eh." (imitating monkey) So what is the result of that busyness? He's a monkey. And they claim to be coming from monkey, these rascals. So we can see that your monkey's quality is already there. (laughter) You have not improved more than monkey, because you are working uselessly. They are theorizing that they have come from monkey, and as soon as you say that you are monkey, they become angry. Just see. They are claiming that we are coming from monkey. And if you say you are monkey, no better than monkey, then they are angry. Just see.
Prabhupāda: You have also caste system in the Western countries. You are not without caste system. There is a priestly class. So there are politicians, there are industrialists, merchants, and ordinary laborer. Where is...? How you can say there is no caste system in your country?
Jayadharma: But there may be the clergymen and the mercantile class and the soldiers and the laborers, in this particular society, but this society is breaking away from that because they are not recognizing the clergy class of men because nobody is going to church, nor is anybody giving any money to the church these days. This is why many churches...
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all think, that you say that your charge is "They are introducing caste system." But the Hindu caste system is already there. How do you say that I am introducing? That is my point.
Jayadharma: That is my foolishness.
Prabhupāda: The more you fight with these rascals, the more you advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are a fighting soldier. Kṛṣṇa very much appreciates. (long pause) So you take Bhagavad-gītā by your own interpretation, and I take Bhagavad-gītā as it is. So who is right? Who will decide this? You interpret in your own way. I don't interpret. I take it as it is. Now we are two parties. So who is correct?
Amogha: They say because so many others...
Prabhupāda: No, no, there are two parties. That's all. Others means one who interprets, that is one party. And there is one party who does not interpret. So who is correct?
Prabhupāda: Give them prasādam.
Gaṇeśa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So try to bring your mother and sister to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is your duty also. And Kṛṣṇa will help. Because they are in relationship with you, Kṛṣṇa will help them, your family. Kṛṣṇa will think of your family, yes. Just like a soldier fighting, the government takes cares of his family. That is special prerogative. If he dies in the fighting, the government gives pension to the family members. So you are fortunate in that way because your son is fighting with māyā. So you take advantage of it. You read the books. You try to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. And your own son is there. You can take instruction from him. So take advantage. Don't lose this opportunity.
Mother: What do you think about Hebrew religion?
Amogha: Oh, Śibiya? That's Africa.
Prabhupāda: No, maybe there. There were... All the kings of the world, they joined, either this party or that party. Friends, friendly countries, they joined. Just like Kṛṣṇa. He personally joined Arjuna, but He gave His soldiers to Duryodhana. It was family war. So the friends divided, "I will join you." It was sporting. For the kṣatriya fighting is sporting. They have football match. They did not take it as enmities. Just in the evening they are friends. This party goes to that party, that party goes to... It is a decision, who will be king, that's all. Test of strength. Actually it was not enmity. "Let us fight, and who is strong he will be king, that's all."
Devotee (1): And the losers will go to the heavenly planets.
Prabhupāda: No, why? They knew. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). "I am not going to die after the annihilation of this body." It was a common understanding. Not that such a man, big man, director, he says, "No, no, I don't believe in the soul." (chuckles) Therefore I said the fourth-class man. In India still, even a common man, uneducated farmer, he believes. He believes. He believes in God. He believes in transmigration. He believes in his karma. These things which will take thousands of years to be learned by the Westerners, even the common man knows still.
Devotee (1): And all Kṛṣṇa's soldiers were killed?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Amogha: So Kṛṣṇa fought against His own soldiers also.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa did not fight.
Amogha: Oh, that's right.
Prabhupāda: He did not.
Amogha: But He led the fight.
Guest 2: What about soldiers?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest 2: Soldiers?
Prabhupāda: Soldiers, they should be also trained up. They are being trained up. Kṣatriyas. Just read the kṣatriya...
Amogha:
- śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ
- yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam
- dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca
- kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam
- (BG 18.43)
Translation: "Heroism power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and..."
Prabhupāda: Well, family men... When you are diseased, you do not say, "My family is there. Don't call for a physician. I am happy." That you do not say. You call for a physician. Your family cannot help you. And what to speak of death? That is another foolishness. When you fly in the sky with your friends and family and when there is danger, nobody can save you. You will drop down. Everyone is flying. Even airplane, if there is some accident in the airplane, what the other airplane can do? If the ship is drowning, what other ship can do? You are drowning; you must drown. There is no question of "my friends and relatives." That is described in the Bhāgavatam. Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣu ātma-śainyeṣu. He is thinking, "They are my soldiers. They will give me protection." Ātma-śainya. Śainya means soldier. Asatsv api. It is false, but he is thinking like that. That is foolishness. When you have to fly, you have to fly on the strength of your wings, own wings, not your son's wings or daughter's wings or... That will not help you. Svakarma-phala, phala-bhuk. You have to enjoy or suffer according to your own activities.
Dr. Crossley: Why is that better than loving your fellow man in the traditional bhakti-mārga?
Prabhupāda: But you love your fellow man, but you don't love your fellow animal. You love man, but you send the animals to the slaughter-house. That is your love.
Dr. Wolfe: And the soldiers into the battle to be killed.
Prabhupāda: No, now, first of all study this man then you go to soldiers. Our love is limited. But if you love... Just like this tree. There are many thousand leaves and flowers. So if you water to each of them, then it will occupy the whole, your life. And if you are intelligent, just put water onto the root. It will go everywhere. And if you are not intelligent, so go on putting water every leaf, every... You see? Your whole body requires food. That does not mean you have to supply food to the ears, to the eyes, to the nails, to the rectum, to the... No. You give food to the stomach; it will be distributed. So Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. That we have already studied. So if you love Kṛṣṇa, then your love will be distributed. If you don't love Kṛṣṇa and if you love somebody else, then somebody will cry that "You do not love me."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because in the material world, for the maintenance of equilibrium of the society, sometimes killing is necessary. Just like fight, war. When the enemy has come to your country, you cannot sit idly; you must fight. But that does not mean that you are allowed to kill everyone as you like. That is a special circumstances when fighting must be there. Therefore the kṣatriyas are required to give protection. Like the government is keeping military, police, soldiers, that does not mean government is after killing only. That department will be utilized when there is necessity, not that government is meant for killing. Government has other departments also. But this is also maintained. If there is necessity, it should be utilized.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you don't accept and repeat it, then you become failed in the examination. Then you can't get a diploma. Then you cannot get a good job. So they force you to repeat it. (break)
Prabhupāda: Field. All of a sudden it became by chance a garden and beautiful, everything. (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: El Cid Conquedor.
Jayatīrtha: He was a famous Spanish soldier.
Rāmeśvara: He fought the Muslims when they invaded Spain. He is a famous Spanish man who fought against the Muslims when they invaded. From Africa, they crossed over the sea and invaded Spain.
Brahmānanda: The Moors. (break)
Brahmānanda: The grains or the milk or whatever.
Prabhupāda: Whatever, yes. "Give me twenty-five percent. You can utilize the land." So that is resource of the land.
Devotee (1): How does the kṣatriya build a palace for himself or something like that?
Prabhupāda: That will be done. To keep a prestigious position, they'll have building, servant, soldiers. Otherwise how they will fear? How they'll have respect?
Devotee (1): So the kṣatriya is the predominator of the land.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣatriya is the owner of the land.
Devotee (1): And he can take the stones and men and build a big, nice...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: ...palace.
Prabhupāda: Every nation is taken, all the leaders, and as soon as there is war, thousands and thousands will be killed. What responsibility? As soon as one atom bomb is dropped, then is many thousand will be finished. Then what is your responsibility? You cannot give. You can make a statue: "These soldiers died. These soldiers died." That's all. But you could not save them from death.
Mādhavānanda: Then they would say that we also must die. Everyone must die.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we die—to live forever. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). We die for that. This is the last death.
Mādhavānanda: Then they will say, "How do we know?"
Prabhupāda: That... You are rascal. How you will know? You come to my feet; then you will know. (laughter)
Brahmānanda: To your feet or to your boot.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From where?
Prabhupāda: Sheffield.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, England.
Prabhupāda: England. So everything Indian required, they would supply, and they would govern and they would exploit. Therefore they became so rich—simply by exploiting India. And Indian soldiers, they expanded empire-Africa, Burma. That's all, all Indian exploitation, Indian men, money, and exploitation. As soon as they lost India, they lost whole empire.
Cyavana: Now they are also suffering.
Prabhupāda: That is stated in the śāstra. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Patram means vegetable, leaves; puṣpam, flower. In this way, whatever He says, you collect and offer to Him and take prasādam. Then you are not responsible. And if you collect for yourself even patram without offering to Kṛṣṇa, if you take, you are responsible for killing. It doesn't matter whether you kill a big animal or a small plant. You are responsible. Just like a soldier. He kills hundreds and thousands of men and he is given gold medal. And as soon as he kills one man for his sense gratification he is hanged. Eh? Is it not? He can say, "I have killed so many men. At that time I was not hanged. I was given gold medal. How is that? (laughter) I have killed only one man.
Prabhupāda: Then? Why does he say "extinct"? These cheaters, they cheat themselves and bluff others and mislead the people. This is their position. We want at least that people may not be bluffed by these rascals and waste their time. That we want, that much. They may say that "You are not scientist." Yes, I am not scientist, but I can request you that don't be bluffed by this nonsense. That much I can say. I can prove that he is a nonsense. Why you are wasting time after them? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)...their folly, European men. Where the American men will go? (laughter) Just see. (break) ...from India they made Indian center, and they conquered both sides—Far East, Middle East, Africa—with Indian soldiers. They organized Indian soldiers and Sikhs and Gurkhas, and they employed them for extending their empire. British soldier does not mean... Maybe two, one or two British commanders, but real soldiers were Indians.
Devotee (3): The Indian soldiers were known as the Gurkhas.
Prabhupāda: Gurkhas and Sikhs.
Devotee (3): Of Nepal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You know that? (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Whatever the leaders do, then the other people will follow.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...India also there is such tendency towards sense gratification?
Prabhupāda: For drawing raw materials from villages and bring it to the Calcutta, Bombay port and export to their country because their country does not produce anything. They’re starving. Still England, London, is maintained by importing goods from Africa, India, here, there. They have no food there. They can grow some potato, maybe… Potato only, That was the reason of expanding their empire. They had no food at home, England. They were manufacturing cotton cloth. That cotton was not grown in their country. It was brought from Egypt. They manipulated things in such a way. In America also they wanted to do that, but Americans, just understanding, separated, George Washington. In America I have heard that each family was to maintain a British soldier. You know that?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, I didn’t know that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they brought tea from India and other places and sell it in America. Their whole policy was they exploit the whole world and bring money in London. That's all. And one who will do that, he will be honored by the state, given Earl of some small village. It has no value. Earl of this whole…, this man…, place, Lord of this. (laughter) A few acres of land and he is Lord of Chelmsford. And they will be given big, big post, governor, viceroy.
Brahmānanda: Usually, in all of the business concerns here, the top man is British, managing their activity.
Prabhupāda: So when they kill such brutally in the farm, the Britisher did not take any step?
Brahmānanda: Not very effective steps. They declared a state of emergency, and they brought soldiers here, and they had huge arrests. They had camps just outside of Nairobi, and they were arresting tens of thousands, huge camps. But the tactics that they would use, the Africans, the British soldiers couldn't...
Prabhupāda: They brought British soldiers or Indian soldiers?
Brahmānanda: I'm not sure.
Prabhupāda: British soldiers, so long, how they'll come? They were using Indian soldiers.
Indian: I know that Indian peoples, they helped them to get this freedom. That is the reason they have a little bit respect for the Indians now, this president.
Prabhupāda: By trance.
Dr. Patel: When he... On the cross they say he uttered, "Father, don't forsake me." That is the time he went into trance most probably. Eh? He must have gone in trance when he uttered the last words, "Father, don't forsake me." And then when he was brought down in the lap of his mother and they took him in the cave, no? Under the guard of those Italian soldiers. Then there was a big hurricane or something like that and they all ran away. And after that he was smuggled away from that place. Christ has rebuilt his father's temple in true sense, the way he spread the Christianity. The churches have degenerated in his teaching, unfortunately. It is the church. That happens with every, in every, I mean, these things, teachings. Race, this race is very bold, indeed, that God choicest race, these Jews, somehow or other.
Prabhupāda: Jews?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is spiritual. Yajñārthāt karma, everything is there. Unless you do it for Kṛṣṇa, everything is material and sinful.
Dr. Patel: That's a fact. If you are doing work tad-arthaṁ karma, then you become mukta, because there is no, I mean, taking with you anything. Mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like government servant, soldiers, they are killing so many; they are not responsible, because he's doing for the government. Police beats you, but he cannot bring any charge against the police. Another man, if he little slaps, you can bring charge, immediately. That is tad-arthaṁ karma kaunteya. The police and military department, they are doing for the government.
Dr. Patel: (break) ...eḥ? Very good discussion we had this morning. And we thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa!
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In no way can anyone say that they're independent. There is no possibility. At every moment one is dependent. And if anyone says they aren't, they are simply foolish rascals. We have to challenge everyone in the world on this point, "You cannot be independent." He is pointing out, saying that even in politics, the politicians like Indira think that they are independent, and Prabhupāda was saying that Munshibhai Raman, he fought so hard for his country's independence, Bangladesh. But in one hour, when the soldiers came, they killed him and every single family member, not sparing anyone. But he thought he was independent. He thought his country had become independent. But in one hour it was all wiped away.
Prabhupāda: So where is your independence? What is the answer? At any moment you have to die. Even Munshibhai Raman or Mussolini or big, big, so..., Napoleon.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Franco. There was that Franco.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. He was given horse urine to drink, Napoleon. Such a great hero, but he had to drink horse urine. This Englishman after Battle of, what is that? Waterloo. When he was arrested, when he was asking water, he was given horse urine. Because everyone was very, very angry. Napoleon became just like Hiranyakasipu. They were threatening their children: "Oh, he, Bona, is coming. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep." He became so much.... He was known as Bona. You do not know all these things?
Prabhupāda: Sir Philip Sydney, a great commander, during the fighting time, when he was shot, he asked for water, and the water was not supplied and he died. Now, he was very generous man. He was the commander. Water was brought, and at the same time another soldier was being carried. He was also going to die. He was looking for the water. So immediately he said, "This water give him. Give him," and he died. He was very generous. He knew that "I am going to die. If he can be saved, give him this water." So that Sydney, Sir Philip Sydney, his name. Melbourne, it is also named after great soldier. So where is your independence? If you are thinking independently and doing things independently, then is it not foolishness? Hm? Why don't you answer? You don't want to be foolish? Suppose within the prison walls, if you want to do things independently, is it possible?
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, why they should not try to be rich? If the rich man exploits them, that "You work in our land and take some salary," why they will work for that? They will go to the factory, will get more salary. This way Indira Gandhi cannot solve the poverty problem. They must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like these soldiers, they for twenty years, simply eating and sleeping, and they are not engaged in cultivating-useless waste of time—and government has to maintain in big cantonment, big, big house, big, nice food, nice.... This is going on. Why the soldiers are maintained? It is waste of energy. They should have been engaged in tilling. Formerly the kings would give them free land. "You make your fortune—but on condition: when there is fight, you have to join." That was very easy. He possessed so much land, and he worked hard, and he got riches. Unless.... "Proprietorship turns sand into gold." Unless there is proprietorship, it cannot be. So therefore kṣatriyas, they were given land: "You take land as much as you like and produce but on condition that when there is war you have to join."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Europe that was the system also.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere that was the system. That is called.... What is called?
Harikesa: Feudalism?
Prabhupāda: Feudalism, yes. What is this nonsense, maintaining so many idle men without any profit? Very, very bad system. And nowadays especially, when there is atomic energy, what is the value of the soldiers?
Harikesa: We need the soldiers to start.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikesa: The soldiers, they start the war. One stands on one side, the other stands on the other side, and there's one shot, one shot, ten shots, ten shots, then mortars, then tanks, then atom bombs.
Prabhupāda: No, why this is? If you have improved scientifically, let two, three scientists keep flying and the handy atom bomb. As soon as war starts, "plum," finished.
Prabhupāda: Then.... Why also? That should be the only. It is waste of time. What kind of scientists they are? If you have actually improved in science for killing others by atom bomb, so keep one atom bomb very carefully. Fly in the sky. And as soon as the war-world, "plum." Finished.
Harikesa: Well, then the other will just send some boats over, and all the men will get out while they're flying in the sky, and they'll just take over the country by manual soldiers.
Prabhupāda: No. As soon as atom bomb is..., everything is finished. There will be no opportunity. That is their thinking, "Who will drop the atom bomb first, he will be winner." That's all. In Russia they are adopting this means. They are releasing all the soldiers for other work. What is the use of keeping so many men idle without any work and maintain them, high salary, occupy big, big cantonment camps?
Harikesa: In America the army builds roads and bridges and things.
Prabhupāda: That's utilization. Why they should be paid for nothing?
Prabhupāda: To save money. Machine means unemployment for many. Tractor, they're using, they're unemployment for bulls and plowmen and then they, bulls have to be killed. This is going on. Unemployment, then kill them. Vietnam, send all the men to fight and kill them. As soon as there is overpopulation, they declare war so that people may be killed.
Hṛdayānanda: Sometimes the soldiers became so disgusted that they would shoot their own officers.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: But they would do it in such a way so it appeared to be accidents. Sometimes they would take little bomb and throw it into the tent of the officers and they would all be killed.
Prabhupāda: What was the reason?
Hṛdayānanda: And they could not understand why they were there. It was a foreign... They were used to America and so they had to go to the jungle but they were, they could not see the point of fighting...
Prabhupāda: Mm. (indistinct)
Hṛdayānanda: So many times they would become so disgusted they would simply kill their own officers, shoot them or throw a bomb. Also in Vietnam, the majority of the soldiers were fighting intoxicated, marijuana and different drugs.
Dayānanda: Also I think people have no respect for authority any more.
Prabhupāda: No.
Dayānanda: There's... All over the world people are not respecting any kind of authorities.
Prabhupāda: No.
agitator. (break)
Prabhupāda: This preaching work is a great fight, struggle.
Acyutānanda: It is very struggle.
Prabhupāda: So you are all soldiers. Even if you lay down your life by fighting, you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa will see that "This devotee has laid down his life," so He'll... He's... Asaṁśayam. Asaṁśayam. Mām evaiśyasy asaṁśayam. So let us go on fighting. Even we die, what is that? We are going back to... Jīvo vā māro vā. A Vaiṣṇava, a sādhu, either he lives or dies, he is under the protection of Kṛṣṇa. Jīvo vā māro vā. (break) So if he dies in the battlefield, he goes to heaven.
Acyutānanda: (break) Now, in the past year, though, Communism has come under many attacks in the magazines and newspapers.
Prabhupāda: So some meeting is not going to be held down?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there's constantly kīrtanas and discourses.
Prabhupāda: Lecture.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lectures and kīrtanas.
Prabhupāda: Kīrtanas. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's soldier to fight with māyā.
Devotees: Jaya!
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are our commander-in-chief, Prabhupāda.
Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself says, ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo. When He.... In Caitanya-caritāmṛta you have seen? In the first part you can find out this verse, ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Look in the index.
Prabhupāda: Index. You can read it. So you are reading books also. Not selling but reading also.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really they are soldiers because many of them have been very severely beaten by police authorities and others during the distribution.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The men who are here now in this room, some of them have been put in jails.... (aside:) Watch out for that thing. Put in jails and beaten just for distributing these books.
Prabhupāda: No. It was.... It was punishment. He became so much, I mean, attached with the animal that he forgot his duty in devotional service. That is stated. Forgot. He neglected. Therefore he was punished, but he remembered that "I did it." You cannot neglect your duty. Then Kṛṣṇa is always with you. (break) ...way, a soldier is dying in duty, immediately the government takes charge of the whole family. So that is.... Why not Kṛṣṇa? (break) ...kṛṣṇa viśvāsa pālana. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said. You know this song? Avaśya rakṣibe kṛṣṇa viśvāsa pālana.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a ditch here.
Devotee (1): There's a place to walk, though, on the left-hand side.
Akṣayānanda: (break) ...from his fallible soldiers.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Akṣayānanda: Fallible soldiers.
Prabhupāda: Fallible soldier? Yes.
Akṣayānanda: Sometimes I say to young boys, "You are seeking protection from your parents in your childhood, and then, when you grow old or when you grow older, they will want protection from you, because they will become old and feeble. So where is the protection? There is actually no protection." And everyone can easily understand that.
Prabhupāda: Not only bhaktas, even abhaktas—by killing them. Yes.
Dr. Patel: (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also favor. (Hindi) ...immediately. Mukti immediately. All the soldiers and kings who saw Kṛṣṇa in the battlefield, they were all muktas immediately. Yes. Because at the time of death they were seeing Kṛṣṇa, so they become all delivered.
Dr. Patel: They got greater benefit than the living people behind. The Pāṇḍavas, they said, that "Those people actually was... They were in presence of Kṛṣṇa. They saw their life by..."
Prabhupāda: Svarūpa.
Prabhupāda: Sense of reality.
Dr. Patel: Reality. I was trying to say that word, reality. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ (BG 7.15). But today the whole world is practically asura.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...is a word declared to the asuras. You see? Therefore everyone is our enemy. Nobody likes us, because a declaration of war against the asura... And we are fighting with some tiny soldiers, that's all. And they are very strong. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you. Jaya. (break) ...we don't want who says that "Why you are searching after God? The gods are loitering in the street." Of course, it is in higher sense, but you cannot say respectively(?), "Everyone is God." Maybe.... (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: Now we must not.... (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: That very word suggests that he is not to that stage where he can see Nārāyaṇa everywhere.
Prabhupāda: No, intelligence also. Father's intelligence he must inherit. There is an Indian proverb, bāpakā beṭā sepāikā ghoḍā, kucha nehi to thoḍā thoḍā (indistinct), mean "The father's son and the soldier's horse, they acquire the quality, if not all, some, must." If one is good soldier, his horse is also trained up. There is a history in India. The horse has played heroic. The Queen of Jhansi's horse and this, our, what is called, Shivaji's horse, they have played unique part in the history. Sepāikā ghoḍā. It is animal, but because it is the horse of a famous hero, it has played. Similarly, the son of father must be as good as father. If not, to some extent. Yes. So you are the.... Your father is the leader of so many big, big businessmen. You also become leader.
Bhūrijana: If we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious without following the rules and regulations, why follow the rules and regulations? That's what I was thinking a while ago.
Prabhupāda: They should follow what their spiritual master says. Book selling, there is no question of moral and immoral. They must sell. Just like in fighting. Where there is fight, the soldiers, to gain victory, there is no question of moral and immoral. He must.
Bhūrijana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think the thing I understand least, is that if they are not doing what you want... I mean... I'm sitting before you now and you're telling me and I'm listening, and you are my spiritual master. I must accept.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean attack them?
Prabhupāda: That I shall tell later. You become little strong. We cannot allow them. Because Kṛṣṇa's policy is, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam (BG 4.8). You have to take that policy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Vṛndāvana, one day, on a walk you were saying that Kṛṣṇa's soldiers will walk all over the world and they will approach everyone and say, "Do you believe in Kṛṣṇa?" And if they say, "No," immediately, kill them.
Prabhupāda: Not kill them with weapon, but kill them by saṅkīrtana. They are already dead, so physically killing is for very big, big, strong man like Mao, or this Lenin, like that. Not common people, they have to be shown mercy.
Hari-śauri: More a question of revival, for the common people, more a question of revival.
Hari-śauri: (calls out) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: We are soldiers of Kṛṣṇa, servants of Arjuna. Simply you will have to act accordingly, then you will finish up enemies. They have no power, although their number is hundred times. Just like Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas. They have no power, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BG 18.78). Keep Kṛṣṇa in your side, then everything will be successful. Tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtiḥ.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have to go now, catch our (indistinct). You'll be coming to America in about a month's time?
Prabhupāda: I think so.
Prabhupāda: My family members are very nice, well-educated. I have got good bank balance, and I have got respectable position," so on, so on. He is thinking, "These things will save me." This world is struggle for existence, and when there is struggle, there are some soldiers. So ātma-sainyeṣu asatsu api. One is thinking that "These are my soldiers. I'll own victory in the struggle for existence." But pramattaḥ tasya nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati. But he's so mad, he knows that these things will be vanquished, and still, he does not see to it. Paśyann api na paśyati. Therefore his anxiety. So Prahlāda Mahārāja is, this version, sadā samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahāt: "On account of accepting nonpermanent things as permanent, therefore he's full of anxiety." Sadā samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahāt.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Nalinīkaṇṭha: Ten new book distributors in the last month.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa will give all facilities if we are sincerely serving Kṛṣṇa. The government gives all facilities to the government servant. The government gives all facilities to the soldiers. When there is fight, there is scarcity of commodities in the civil life, but there is no scarcity among the soldiers. The first consideration, soldiers. Similarly, those devotees who are fighting against māyā, their facility is first concern. They're fighting, trying to save the people from the onslaught of material energy. That will be explained. What is next verse?
Nalinīkaṇṭha: Tat prayāso na kartavyo yata āyur-vyayaḥ param, na tathā.
Prabhupāda: What is previous verse before that?
Nalinīkaṇṭha: Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityāḥ.
Prabhupāda: We have discussed this.
Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So, what is the next verse?
Hṛdayānanda:
- ko nv artha-tṛṣṇāṁ visṛjet
- prāṇebhyo 'pi ya īpsitaḥ
- yaṁ krīṇāty asubhiḥ preṣṭhais
- taskaraḥ sevako vaṇik
"Money is so dear that one conceives of money as being sweeter than honey. Therefore, who can give up the desire to accumulate money, especially in household life? Thieves, professional servants, soldiers and merchants try to acquire money even..."
Prabhupāda: Here is a very nice example. Soldiers. They know "We are going to give up our life." And what for? "Money." (laughs) They are prepared to give up life for money. Money is so sweeter than honey. (laughs) And thieves, they go at night for burglary. He knows that "If I trespass anyone's house, he can kill me immediately." But still he takes the risk for money. That is all explained here. What is the verse?
Hṛdayānanda: "Thieves, professional servants, soldiers and merchants try to acquire money even by risking their very dear lives."
Hṛdayānanda: Purport: "How money can be dearer than life is indicated in this verse. Thieves may enter the house of a rich man to steal money at the risk of their lives. Because of trespassing they may be killed by guns or attacked by watchdogs, but still they try to commit burglary. Why do they risk their lives? Only to get some money. Similarly, a professional soldier is recruited into the army, and he accepts such service, with the risk of dying on the battlefield, only for the sake of money. In the same way, merchants go from one country to another on boats at the risk of their lives, or they dive into the water...
Prabhupāda: In 1942 I have seen when war was going on, so, these Britishers wanted soldiers, so they created artificial famine. The people became in need of money, so they enrolled them as soldiers. I have seen it. There was no other way to get money to get commodities at higher price. Artificial famine. There was no food grains available, but black market it is available. Black market means more price, but they had no money. So to get this money, they enrolled as soldiers. This was Mr. Churchill's policy.
Prabhupāda: That is after eight years. Actually it is proved, and still, they.... (break) What is this dome?
Rāmeśvara: (break) ...street has more banks than any other street in America, Wilshire Boulevard. Everywhere, banks everywhere. (break)
Prabhupāda: Wilshire, yes. I remember.... There is a park. Soldiers, there are soldiers in a corner. I used to come to that park. (break) ...this rich.... (break) ...is the costlier quarter in America. (break) ...he's got a house here.
Hari-śauri: George Harrison?
Rāmeśvara: Yes, also Ravi Shankar.
Prabhupāda: He has got a house?
Rāmeśvara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Almost daily. But it was meant for bombing the European quarters. So when the Britishers saw that "Now this Subash Bose has organized I.N.A...." I.N.A. was organized by Subash Chandra Bose. Outside India, all the Indians, they contributed money, especially from Singapore. Singapore, Hong Kong, this side..., all the Indians, they contribute sufficiently. And he got men from the fighting Indians soldiers. The Britishers, they were fighting with Indian soldiers, with Germany and Japan and others. So the contract with Hitler and Subash Bose was this, that "All the Indian soldiers which you arrest in the war, please give me them. Then I shall organize." So the soldiers, when they understood they're being arrested—"We shall go to Indian side"—they voluntarily surrendered. So Hitler, all others, Hitler and Japan, Tojo, arrest them and give it to Subash Chandra Bose, and he was organizing in Singapore.
Hari-śauri: He had a large army?
Prabhupāda: Large or small, whatever; there was. But England had no soldiers. Whatever they did—fight—with the Indian soldiers, Gurkha and Sikh. Indian money, Indian soldiers, everything Indian—they were fighting. So when the Britishers saw that "The nationalism has come amongst the soldiers. It is not possible to maintain the Empire," they voluntarily gave indepen.... "Better give us good relations, and our business.... Make some agreement. But before departing, make them weak and divide Pakistan and India."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Luxury leads to poverty. When the American becomes too much luxurious, they'll not be able to defend their country. Then it will be finished.
Rāmeśvara: That is the fear even now, that America has lost their fighting spirit against the Communists.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Yes. Vietnam. It is proof. When the Vietnam is attacked, American soldiers, they began to fly, flee away, became afraid. Naturally. They were not soldiers. They have no fighting spirit. By force they have been made soldiers. Let them take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. America will be saved. (japa)
Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said yesterday, or a few days ago, that this movement will go on unimpeded for ten thousand years, so...
Prabhupāda: Yes, provided we keep it uncontaminated. You should take this opportunity.
Rāmeśvara: So after ten years we have gotten so many devotees and so many houses, so I can't imagine how big this movement will be after ten thousand years.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You'll get the government.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...Kṛṣṇa there is no happiness. All imagination.
Hari-śauri: Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇaḥ.
Prabhupāda: We shall go this way?
Ambarīṣa: This way's OK.
Satsvarūpa: ...soldier. A hundred years ago when the north fought the south. This is some memorial. (break)
Devotee (2): ...devotional service is transcendental to the modes of material nature. That's from the very moment that one first begins to render devotional service? Or gradually? From the first very moment?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Devotee (2): ...of devotional service in the modes of material nature, there's no such thing.
Prabhupāda: Suppose if there is war. So first-class men, they cannot go to fight; they are not trained up. But the second-class man who is trained up.... What is that quality?
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Courage in battle."
Prabhupāda: Courage in battle. Now we have got report that in Vietnam battles, what happened?
Hari-śauri: Whenever they fight, most of the soldiers run away.
Prabhupāda: Run away. (laughter) He's fourth class. He has been placed in the second class. So how he'll do the...
Scheverman: Yeah, but we have a principle called "A man tends to rise to the level of his incompetence." (laughter)
Prabhupāda: These are the defects of the society at the present moment. A fourth-class, fifth-class man is on the first class or second class. Why Nixon had to be dragged down? He's a third-class man.
Scheverman: So you are talking not only about an intellectual fitness development, but also a physical fitness of body to go along with that.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No.
Hari-śauri: Social body.
Prabhupāda: Physical fitness, they are, this.... To keep the brain in order, that is also physical thing. So.... And the soldier trained up how to fight, that is also physical. But you cannot ask the high-court judge to go and fight in the field. Both of them are physical, but you cannot ask the high-court judge, "Go and fight in the front." His business is different, his business is different.
Scheverman: Each has a different role, function in the society.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Kern: But that, that seems to abandon the foolish.
Scheverman: There's an area hopefully where we might be able to cooperate, this area of slaughter, senseless slaughter.
Prabhupāda: So many things. It is going on. So unless there is first-class man, who will guide them?
Kern: I think you ought to eliminate the second-class man who are soldiers. If you're training a man to be a soldier, he wants to fight.
Prabhupāda: That's all right; fighting is also required. When there is enemy, we are not discarding fighting. Fighting there will be. So long we are in the material world, there will be disagreement and there will be fight. You cannot stop it; that is not possible. So a class of men, they should be trained up fighting. A class of men, they should be trained up for teaching. A class of men for producing food. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). There are so many things. If you take advantage of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement cooperatively, it will be very, very good for the whole human society. And if your America takes up this call very seriously, others will follow.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They can say that, for example, the wives of Duryodhana and all of these people who were killed, they were not made happy.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre... (BG 1.1).
Prabhupāda: They were happy. Otherwise they could not fight. They are not Vietnam soldiers, when they are attacked they are going away. They are not like that. They are determined that "I'll either lay down life or gain victory." That is their... They were not afraid of fighting. Do you think they were afraid of fighting? That is real kṣatriya. Yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. That is real kṣatriya training.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I mean to say that they may consider that this is a selfish type of happiness, though. Not taking into consideration...
Prabhupāda: This is wanted. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, "You fight." He hesitated. "How can I fight? To kill my grandfather, my teacher? To kill my brother? My nephew? And so on, so on, so on. What You are advising, Kṛṣṇa, I cannot do." Therefore Bhagavad-gītā was talked, and after learning he says, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava." (indistinct) This is perfection. He remained the same soldier. In the beginning, he was declining to fight, but at the end, he has agreed, "Yes." In the beginning it was "No." And when he was perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is "Yes." The materialist person, they are accustomed to say, "No." "No, God." When you become "Yes, God," then you are perfect. Jñānīs are "No, God." The karmīs are "No, God," yogis are "No, God," everyone, "No, God." Only the bhaktas, "Yes, God!" Yes. So that is perfect. This morning one Indian gentleman was talking about this impersonal, what was his question?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ (BG 4.3).
Prabhupāda: Ah, "I am just talking to you that purātanaḥ, old yoga system, which I spoke to the sun-god." "Why you are talking to me?" Then?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhakto 'si me...
Prabhupāda: Bhakto 'si me. He was not a Vedantist, he was a soldier. How the soldier can understand the highest topics of bhakti-yoga? Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). It is the yoga. How a soldier... Arjuna was not a Vedantist, he was a fighter. There was a doubt that "How a soldier can understand?" Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, bhakto 'si, "You can understand because you are My bhakta." The first qualification, one must be a bhakta. Then he can understand. Otherwise it is not possible.
Mr. Deyani: How then can the God come in a human form, because human, when you talk of human body, it is a limited...
Prabhupāda: That means whether he is a gṛhastha or brāhmaṇa, or.... There are eight varṇāśrama—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, whatever he may be, out of these eight categories.
- kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya
- yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei 'guru' haya
- (CC Madhya 8.128)
Anyone who understands Kṛṣṇa perfectly, he is guru. Just like Arjuna is our guru, but he's a gṛhastha, he's a soldier, he's a kṣatriya. He's neither brāhmaṇa nor sannyāsī nor Vedantist, nothing of the sort. But he knows Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is guru. So gṛhastha (Hindi). Śravaṇam, this is the first step of bhakti. Hear about Kṛṣṇa from the right source. Otherwise you will be misguided. Therefore Kṛṣṇa recommends, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You have to go to a person where you can surrender. (Hindi)
Guest (3): How to...?
Prabhupāda: That we have to test, whether I can surrender to him. That we have to behave with him. Therefore according to system, one has to study that "Whether I can surrender to him?" If you think that "No, I know better than him," don't accept a formal guru. That is mistake. And guru also will see, "He's appealing to me, he is going to accept my discipleship, let me see whether he is qualified." Then there should be guru and śiṣya, not that as a fashion. Like Arjuna, Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as guru after talking with Him. Find out that verse, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that means in the past we existed, at present we are existing, and in future we shall continue to exist, individually. And that is our experience. I existed in the past as a child. So I existed as a person. I existed as a young man, so I existed as a person. I am an old man now, now I am existing as a person. Naturally, the conclusion is when I shall change this body, I shall remain as a person. How we can change this conclusion? I am continuing to exist as a person. I am still existing as a person. And here is the authority, He says in the future also you remain a person. So there is time factor, past, present and future, and in all these time factors I live as a person. Not only I, but also Kṛṣṇa. He says "I also remain as person. You Arjuna, you also person, I am also person, and all these soldiers and kings who have assembled, they are also persons." So our personality continues, past, present and future.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The American soldiers, they were simply taking intoxication, hunting after prostitutes and running from the enemy.
Prabhupāda: And when they were attacked, they were running away. Because they are śūdras. How they can fight? They are not trained up as kṣatriyas. Huh? Anyone who is unemployed, let him become a soldier, but he cannot fight. That is not possible. Neither this class of men can have good brain to give direction to the society. The democracy means anyone can go to the government, and because he's not kṣatriya, his only business is how to get money so long he's on the post. Just like you did not like your President, Mr. Nixon. So that is the risk. If you keep the society in chaotic condition, any department, intellectual, administration, production, they'll be all topsy turvey, and there cannot be any peace in the world. So this Vedic scheme, varṇāśrama, is a very important scheme.
Prabhupāda: No, I have no, I mean to say, grudge against. If Kṛṣṇa wants... In old age I was living a retired life in Vṛndāvana. He asked me "Get out, go to America." So I came. At the age of seventy years, actually nobody goes out of home. But Kṛṣṇa asked me, "Get out and go." So I came. And although I have got the best temple in Vṛndāvana, I cannot live there. But a fighting soldier is honored by the government. He maybe dies, he is recognized by the government, "Here is a soldier, laid down his life by fighting." So we prefer that life. We shall die fighting with māyā.
Prabhupāda: That is, because it was fight amongst the family members. So He was also related with the Kuru family. His aunt, Kuntī..., Kuntī was married to the Pāṇḍavas. So the family members may not think that He's partial, so He divided Himself into two. His soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. And Arjuna and Duryodhana were present, requesting Him to take their side. So Kṛṣṇa said that "We are all family members, so I divide Myself into two-My soldiers and Myself. So if you want, you take Me or My soldiers, as you like, but if you take Me, I say I'll not fight." So Duryodhana thought that "Kṛṣṇa will not fight and He's prepared to give me soldiers," he took the soldiers, and Arjuna said, "No, I want You." So this was the division. So in the beginning He said that "Even if I go to one side, I'll not fight." So how He could fight? Not that He was not a fighter, but because He promised that "The side which will accept, I'll not fight." But He did not say that "I'll not give you instruction of fighting." That is Kṛṣṇa. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: No, on siṁhāsana, carried by hand.
Bali-mardana: Palanquin.
Prabhupāda: Palanquin; no, the siṁhāsana as it is. Just like this is siṁhāsana, two big poles down, and tie it with..., cut it with legs and carry, four men or eight men change. Change the soldiers.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not on carts, not on big chariots.
Prabhupāda: No. Chariot, only Ratha-yātrā.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll make a big advertisement. We'll call it "Fall Festival." This festival, we called it "Summer Festival." People respond to that. If you say Ratha-yātrā, they can't even pronounce the word. So we call it "Summer Festival," and they came.
Hari-śauri: "Summer Festival" sounds very attractive.
Guest (7): That is?
Prabhupāda: Bhakti.
Guest (7): Very well, she has done.
Prabhupāda: That is bhakti. Just like Arjuna, he was a soldier but he fought for Kṛṣṇa. That is a military art. For his personal, he refused, "No, no, I am not going to fight with my relatives." But when he understood that Kṛṣṇa wants it, he did it. So anything, if we dovetail with Kṛṣṇa's service, that becomes bhakti. (indistinct) Just like Kṛṣṇa is saying, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Anyone who is offering in devotion a little leaf, little flower, little water, "I accept." So Kṛṣṇa is not poverty-stricken that He wants from me something but He wants your bhakti, that you become a devotee, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto.
Prabhupāda: To be quickly recognized by Kṛṣṇa, this is the short-cut process. He never says those who are sitting in a secluded place meditating or chanting, doing nothing. He never says that "They are My very dear devotees." But those who are preaching-na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me (BG 18.69). Just like government takes more care for the soldiers, especially when there is fighting. They are giving life for the state. So their comfort-first consideration. In the warfield, enough supplies. Anything the soldiers require. Enough supplies. Sometimes the store is blown out. And again another store is ready. Therefore in the wartime they control. (break) ...destroy them. And still another store. So therefore supply is sufficient. Civil supplies become controlled. Whatever they want, supply is there. The Britishers, British time. I have seen, in the village they will let loose the soldiers to rape anyone.
Maṇihāra: The sergeants and corporals go first. The leaders of the battalion, they will go first to start to ravage and loot, and then all their men will follow.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere, huh? So I have seen in Calcutta outside villages. So my maternal uncle's house was their "Tally-on." (?) So when they used to come there was a, what is called rumor, "Soldiers come..." They'll captured any woman from the street. No restrictions.
Maṇihāra: They are simply killing, killing, killing, for no reason; therefore this killing turns into..., they turn into animal. So when they see woman, they...
Prabhupāda: So everywhere the same business. The soldiers are let loose in the villages.
Pradyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? What is the program? Will you becoming down?
Prabhupāda: Why not? Yes. As soon as ready I shall go.
Caraṇāravindam: I have seen many Sikh soldiers. They're very big. They're very noble looking soldiers.
Prabhupāda: They're very, martial race. Practically, the Britishers expanded their empire with these Sikh soldiers and Gurkha soldiers.
Hari-śauri: The Gurkha, they're very...
Caraṇāravindam: And Nepalese soldiers.
Prabhupāda: Nepalese. They are very brave.
Hari-śauri: Yes, they're very renowned.
Prabhupāda: Sikhs are very brave. They're martial. And another martial race, Jats. They are kṣatriyas. Oh, they can fight... When Britishers possessed India they organized this military with Sikhs especially, Jats, and Gurkhas. And they expanded their empire, Burma, Ceylon, Africa, all these British Empire possessions. And not only that, they fought two big world wars with these Sikhs soldiers. They conquered over this Mesopotamia, Middle East.
Caraṇāravindam: And now nothing.
Prabhupāda: Now, after losing India, they have no more British Empire. Because they cannot maintain without Indian soldiers. Therefore they voluntarily left.
Caraṇāravindam: I used to see in my grandmother's house, in her front room she used to keep special...
Prabhupāda: Where? In London?
Caraṇāravindam: That was in Yorkshire, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yorkshire.
Caraṇāravindam: And in her front room she had many things that my great-grandfather collected...
Prabhupāda: ...from India.
Caraṇāravindam: From India, yes. And then his son, my grandfather, he was also a soldier. He was a captain, and he was in India and in Hong Kong, and China, Tinsing. And he collected many things. He was also in the Boer War.
Prabhupāda: And your father?
Caraṇāravindam: He was born in Tinsing. My father's family was there, where he's serving. Then he became later, he was a commander in the Royal Navy.
Prabhupāda: Oh, he was engaged in the Navy.
Caraṇāravindam: Yes.
Caraṇāravindam: Actually I have seen that even in all these villages in Africa and India, they have no real connection to the city politics. Because if the city breaks down they could move back to... They have their cow, they have field, vegetables...
Prabhupāda: If there is war they were not affected. And the soldiers would not bother the public. It is said during Mohammedan period the soldiers of one party will ask the cultivator, "Where the other soldiers gone?" They would say, "I have seen and they have gone this side." The cultivator is going on. The fighting is going on, but the cultivator is not affected. He is free. "You fight between themselves and whoever the victor is, I shall pay taxes. That's all. I have nothing to do with politics." This was... Between two parties of king or political, they may fight. Citizens, they have nothing to do who is the victorious. "You fight and one of you will become victorious. So you take taxes. I am concerned with paying tax. And tax, tax means whatever I have grown, you take one-fourth. You see this I have grown. Now you can take away one-fourth." No income tax, no sale tax, no this tax or that tax. And if some year, by chance, he has not grown anything—no tax. "I have not produced, I could not produce anything." Very simple. Soldiers, they were not paid. They were given land by the king. "You enjoy this land without any price. But when there is fight you have to come out." Fight is not going every day. It may take place after some years. So they are living peacefully.
Caraṇāravindam: It was similar in old England in the knights' time.
Prabhupāda: That is the whole world history. Now they have made encumbrance. Naturally, a class of men, they became soldiers. They were trained up, and...
Caraṇāravindam: Whenever I visited a village in India, people were always very friendly. "Sit down, take some meal." Or if I walk through a field they will pick something from a tree, some tomatoes, or some vegetables and give it to me.
Prabhupāda: You can grow some tomatoes here. That is a very easy thing.
Caraṇāravindam: I have also some and some different seeds to plant.
Prabhupāda: Tomato, squash.
Prabhupāda: The king and the daughter went to a great muni's house, a saintly person. Cyavana Muni, Cyavana Muni. And the daughter, young daughter, out of ignorance, she committed some offense. Took one straw and pierced through one insect. The muni was sitting there as insect. So the result was—because she offended—all the men of the king, means the soldiers, the secretaries, they stopped passing urine and stool.
Hari-śauri: The muni was there in the form of an insect?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: And she pierced him. Oh.
Mr. Malhotra: Yes, battle of Kurukṣetra was fought...
Prabhupāda: Politics. Senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta. Senayor ubhayor madhye. (BG 1.21) "Between the two soldiers, keep my chariot, my dear Acyuta." He is addressing Acyuta. Acyuta, Kṛṣṇa, agreed to become his chariot driver. Therefore he is purposefully using this word acyuta. "Because I know You are the Supreme Lord, and I am ordering You, but because You promised that You will carry my order, Acyuta, You never fail in Your word." So God's another name is Acyuta. God never falls down. This Māyāvādī theory that "I am God, now I am fallen down," That is wrong theory. How God can fall down? If God falls down He is not God. Dog falls down, not the God.
Prabhupāda: And that also, when they came back from the jail life, they decided not to do it again. Therefore Gandhi did not recommend mass civil disobedience next time. He recommended individual... (break) ...but (indistinct) 19l7, and we got svarāja in 1947. So it was not due to civil disobedience or noncooperation. It was due to Subash Bose's INA. He thought that when he organized soldiers, and...
Guest (1): Put them on the battlefield, fought them, defeated them...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And when the Britishers found, "Now the soldiers are non-cooperating. There is no hope of ruling," they left.
Guest (1): Yes. That is the truth.
Prabhupāda: "...opposition." Therefore he went out and organized the INA, and that was successful. It is not Gandhi's noncooperation movement.
Guest (1): That's true. Now in the British official records which they are publishing their secret papers of twenty-five years, that knowledge is very clearly that it was this armed fight of Indian National Army which convinced the British that they could not rule India with the Indian soldiers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real noncooperation. (laughter) What this public noncooperation will do. They are simply clerks. Some of them may be high-court judges, but no responsible post was given.
Guest (1): And all these atrocities were committed by Indians upon Indians at the orders of the British.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Saved. Kṛṣṇa saved. Unless Kṛṣṇa saves, who can? So I had the experience of riot in Calcutta in my childhood.
Setterji: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: At any moment.
Setterji: "Who are afraid from death? Come on!" challenging... (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Soldiers, they forget that "We have to die." They fight for... That is another madness. In Hindi it is called kunchariya.(?)
Setterji: Kunchariya. (Hindi) That is... Ah.
Prabhupāda: Soldiers they do that. It is unnaturally he becomes. They become mad after killing. (Hindi) ...kṣatriya spirit. They must be trained up kṣatriyas. If he is bāniyā, he cannot do it.
Setterji: (Hindi) ...who have challenged us. So "Come on."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) So you are real husband. You gave protection to your wife.
Indian lady: (Hindi) (Hindi conversation for few sentences)
Prabhupāda: One lady... She is Subash Bose's niece, Lalitā Bose. You see? Because these family are very intimately..., Subash Bose's family and Nehru family. So she calls Indira "Didi," means "elder sister." So she took me, and she gave me interview at a very critical moment, just day before that Bujhibanlal(?) was killed, and she was guarded by heavy number of police and soldier. Still, she allowed my car to enter. I am very much obliged. But it was ten minutes' time. So what Bhagavad-gītā could be discussed in ten minutes? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). One has to learn Bhagavad-gītā submissively, praṇipātena, paripraśnena, by sincere inquiry, and learn it from a person who has seen. Upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. You cannot have any knowledge, who has not seen the truth. If you say that "How it is possible that you have...?" We have seen through this paramparā system. The same thing: "This is pencil." I have learned it from my father, "It is pencil," that's all. You cannot call it stick. It is pencil. My father has taught that "This is pencil." I know this. That's all. It is very easy. But if one follows, his life is successful. Very easy.
Gurudāsa: (whispers) Tape always runs out on places like that. (Hari-śauri laughs)
Prabhupāda: Mules, I have seen, if they stop, you can beat like anything; still, it will not move.
Gurudāsa: Yes. "Stubborn as a mule" is a proverb in the West.
Prabhupāda: I have seen. The soldiers are beating with the butts of the gun—still (laughter) not going. So many varieties of life we had to pass through, and with great fortune we get this human form of body. And that also we waste in the same business—punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), misguided. Labdhvā sudurlabham idam bahu-sambhavānte (SB 11.9.29). After many, many births this human form—people do not understand. Sudurlabham. Durlabham means rare, and sudurlabham means still...
Dr. Patel: More rare.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
- dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv
- ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api
- pramatto teṣāṁ nidhanaṁ
- paśyann api na paśyati
- (SB 2.1.4)
Deha, śarīre, apatya, offspring, children. Dehāpatya-kalatrā, kalatrā, patnī. Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv asatsv api ātma-sainyeṣu. (Hindi) ...struggle for existence. But we think that "These soldiers will give me protection, dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣu. I have got a strong body, and I have got very faithful wife. My children are so obedient and working. Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣu. And so I am safe." Ātmā sainya asatsu. Asatsu means... (Hindi). And still, pramatto tasya nidhanam. He knows that "These soldiers will be slaughtered in this battle, struggle for existence." Paśyann api na paśyati: "Although he knows, still, he is blind."
- dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv
- ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api
- pramatto teṣāṁ nidhanaṁ
- paśyann api na paśyati
- (SB 2.1.4)
(Hindi with guests) (aside:) There is some cardamom? (break) Everyone is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa's service—the gṛhastha, sannyāsī, brahmacārī. That is external. And actual everyone is sannyāsī, and they have no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa, if they are actually seriously doing. More than sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī (BG 6.1). He is yogi, sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma. Nothing for personal interest. Then you'll be successful.
Prabhupāda: Just like motorcar is manufactured by somebody and the passenger is there and the driver is there, similarly, this is a machine made by māyā. I am the passenger, and God is driver. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati bhrāmāyan (BG 18.61). Bhrāmāyan, the driver, the passenger of the owner, he is asking, "Mr. Driver, you go this way." So He's driving. Just like the same—Arjuna is asking Kṛṣṇa, senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me 'cyuta: (BG 1.21) "Just between these two parties of soldiers, please keep my chariot." The same thing. The chariot driver, He is the Supersoul. In this body there are two souls. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. That he's also kṣetrajñā. Kṣetra is this body, and kṣetrajñā one knows, this body.... Just like I know it is my finger. I never say, "I finger." It is my finger. So similarly, the driver also can say, "It is my car," and the proprietor also can say. So two persons, one driver and one passenger, or the proprietor.... And the body is machine. The subjects are there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. India did not know what is tea. They started the tea gardens, and they recruited labors from India. We have seen in our childhood that Mahatma Gandhi Road. When I was standing on the gate, five hundred, six hundred laborers recruited from Bihar. Bihar and Orissa, these two provinces very poor. Even all these colonies, just like Trinidad... Where is Englishmen? If the laborers and Indians were sent... Therefore we find in Mauritius, in Africa, so many Indians. Their kingdom, first of all it was conquered by Indian soldiers. Then, when it was to be organized-Indian coolies, Indian laborers, Indian guards. They have got men and money, but they expanded Empire. So I am doing the same business: American money, American... (laughs) I am also a great politician.
Rāmeśvara: Then he closes the article by giving references to many books which describe this.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Which book?
Rāmeśvara: He first of all refers to Plato, the old Greek philosopher. In one of his books, Book Ten of the Republic, he describes a soldier. No, he gives a story which supports the idea of transmigration of soul.
Prabhupāda: Plato.
Rāmeśvara: Plato.
Prabhupāda: Hm. That's a fact.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. They knew that "We are not going. So long the nonviolence is there, we are safe." They were occasionally calling Gandhi and patting him: "Sir, why you are doing this? Let us compromise," because he knew that "So long nonviolence will continue, we are safe." But Subash Bose's protest was that "If you don't take to violence, then these people are never going." That was the difference of opinion between Subash Bose and... So when he was taking the Congress in hand, Gandhi became so angry that Subash Bose, being elected President, Gandhi did not attend the Congress. So other workers, he requested Subash Bose that "You resign. Otherwise Gandhi will not."(?) So he resigned. He done right. And then he thought that "Unless I go out of India, I cannot do anything." Then he managed to go out of India, and Singapore, he... Indians with their help and Hitler's intervention, he organized this INA. And when the Britisher's saw that "Now the soldiers are joining national movement, then we cannot rule over," then they decided, "Let us make some compromise, and as much possible, do harm. Divide this India, Pakistan and India, and go away." This is fact.
Guest (1): Actually...
Prabhupāda: So they decided that because without soldiers and police, how they can rule over? And that, when they saw the soldiers are now joining Subash Bose and they are planning to come to India from Imphal, so they saw, "Now it is impossible." They are politicians. They could understand. So therefore the conclusion is: It is not Gandhi's nonviolence. It is Subash Bose's INA which compelled them to go away.
Guest (1): That's... But Gandhiji knew actually it's not possible to organize this violence in India, because the people are not of that nature.
Prabhupāda: No, everything has got. Just like Subash Bose organized outside.
Guest (1): Subash Bose was a very great organizer and a great politician.
Prabhupāda: He organized. He made compromise, some he made, this Hitler and Tojo, that "Whoever, Indian soldiers surrendered, you..."
Guest (1): They should go to INA.
Prabhupāda: INA. He made this... And the soldiers were voluntarily surrendering.
Guest (1): (Prabhupāda chuckling) Ah, many. No, Subash was, had got a great personality.
Prabhupāda: When the Britishers saw, "Now the soldiers are coming in national movement. There is no hope. Better break this and go peacefully so that our business may not be disturbed, our relation may not be disturbed. Make a Commonwealth and so on, so on, hodgepodge. And do as much harm as possible dividing Pakistan and Hindustan, all the food in Pakistan, East Bengal and West Pakistan, gehun(?) and rice." And this Hindustan in starvation, because they were getting gehun(?) from Punjab and rice from East Bengal, and that is stopped. They very clever. Greatest harm they did.
Prabhupāda: This is also arrangement by Kṛṣṇa. Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. "I will arrange soldiers. Russia will arrange for military power, America will arrange for military power, and they'll be engaged in fighting so that the overburdened earth will be released from these, all these demons. And it will pave the way for Kṛṣṇa consciousness." And so long they're alive, they'll protest against Kṛṣṇa consciousness: "This is brainwash." So Kṛṣṇa will arrange war between them. Then they'll be finished, and it will be easy for us to make progress. So paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8).
Prabhupāda: You have to see it, what for they are killing. Stalin was killing for his own sense gratification. He wanted to maintain himself in the position, and anyone going against him, he would kill. That was not for the citizens' benefit. For his own benefit. Therefore he's a criminal. Just like soldier is killing hundreds of thousands of other soldiers. He is being awarded, "Oh, you are brave." And as soon as he kills one man for his own—he is hanged. So we have to see what is the cause that Arjuna fought for Kṛṣṇa, he became a devotee. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si (BG 4.3). Very dear friend. What is the business? To kill. There are different.
Satsvarūpa: Isn't it true also that, in the Kṛṣṇa conscious state, that a rascal, he may be allowed to live if he does his rascaldom but within the regulations. Like there's even allowance for eating meat and for going to the prostitute. Not that he'll be automatically killed, but...
Prabhupāda: No, who said like that?
Prabhupāda: No Hitler actually helped him, all the soldiers. And then the Sikh soldiers and Gurkha soldiers voluntarily surrendered to join INA. And this information obliged the Britishers to go away. Then "Now the army is joining national movement, so there is no hope." The Gandhi's noncooperation, the clerks' noncooperation the, some of these teachers' noncooperation what do they care for? But when they saw that "The soldiers are now going to join this non..." Gandhi diagnosed the disease rightly, that "The Britishers are here on account of our cooperation. Without this cooperation, they'll go away." That's a fact. So his noncooperation movement was... It was a good trick, but actually he did not succeed. And this movement succeeded. That "Now he's organizing Indian soldiers for national movement. There is no chance."
Prabhupāda: They are now feeling the pressure of the opposite party. So fight is fight. When there is fight, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "Some of our soldiers will die. It doesn't matter." You don't expect that not a single soldier of your party will not die. No, some of them will die. Still fight must go on. Fight cannot be stopped. So fight like brave soldiers, Kṛṣṇa will help you. Don't make any compromise. No truce with these demons. Fight must be. Our fighting weapon is Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. That's all. Sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam. Astra. That astra is yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana, this saṅkīrtana, this astra weapon. They're now afraid of this astra more than atomic weapon. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: If I require, I'll take. So Gandhi discovered, and the discovery was there Surendranath Ban... That they're exploiting us, so noncooperate. They are ruling over us by our cooperation, so let us noncooperate." But that is a foolish policy. Poverty-stricken country, how they can noncooperate? That was not successful, but this program, Subhash Bose's tit-for-tat, military, that was successful. They're keeping our men as soldiers and police, and by their strength they're ruling over India. And Subhash Bose made a plan—the soldiers and police will noncooperate. They'll join his INA. And when they began to join Indian National Army, these intelligent Britishers could understand, "Now it is no more possible. With whose cooperation, we shall kick?" Then they made a friendly settlement. Friendly means "Divide it so that they'll perpetually fight, and let us go."
Prabhupāda: So this will give impetus to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). Don't be disappointed. Kṛṣṇa will act through His movement and kill them, these demons. How it will be done, that you cannot know now, but it will be done. Let us remain true soldiers. That's all. And if it is a fight, suppose we die in the fight. The fight means with vow, with determination either to gain victory or die. Because it is fight against māyā, why we shall be afraid of being killed? Where there is fight, one must know that "Either I am going to be killed or gain victory." Jīvo vā māro vā. Those who are devotees, either they live or they die—the same thing. While they live they are serving Kṛṣṇa; when they die they will serve Kṛṣṇa. Jīvo vā māro vā. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). He goes to Kṛṣṇa. (laughs) So what is the loss? We are working for Kṛṣṇa, and if we die we go to Kṛṣṇa. So what is the loss? Same business.
Jayatīrtha: None.
Prabhupāda: None. So that twenty years, failure, and here also he started that nonviolence-thirty years. In 1917 he came here from Africa, and the nonviolent, noncooperation... Actually the Hitler's war in 1947 helped India to become independent, the Hitler's cooperation with Subash Bose, INA. When he organized the soldiers, then Britishers thought, "No more chance." Then they left India. Not for the nonviolence. These are artificial things, in politics nonviolence.
Mahāṁśa: You two were working together?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Mahāṁśa: Yourself and Gandhi were together for some time?
Prabhupāda: That was the disagreement with Subhash Bose. Subhash Bose said, "Mahatmaji, they will never go by this nonviolence. You have to take to violence." He said that "I will never have independence, but I will not take it." Therefore he left India. When he organized that INA and when the Britishers felt the (indistinct), "Now the soldiers have joined," all hopes lost. They did not give up India for Gandhi's nonviolence.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is what the usual belief is. The usual belief is that it was due to Gandhi's nonviolence.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is said in Hong Kong, somewhere. People were astonished. Nobody said like that. And this is the fact.
Prabhupāda: There was fighting between two political parties. The cultivator is working on the field. One party soldier and, "Where is the other party's soldiers?" "I have seen, they have gone this way." The soldiers of the king, let them fight. Therefore all the soldiers, they assembled in Kurukṣetra. It had nothing to do with the public. Fighting is going on, killing is going on in that big place. They were peaceful. "You conquer or either Kauravas. We shall pay tax. That's all." Why the public should be drawn?
Prabhupāda: He's preaching His glory. He is everything, and these rascals are denying. And He comes: "No, no, no, no. It is wrong." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). And a preacher means he is doing that, training people how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Will he not be...? He is... A preacher is giving real sense. To awaken this sense, Kṛṣṇa had to come personally. And he is doing the same work: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." How much great service it is. Prahlāda Mahārāja... He is asking, his father, that "Why you are training them to Kṛṣṇa?" "Better surrender. He has given you so much strength, so much power." That was... Prahlāda Mahārāja has given him. In spite of so much trouble given to him, he was speaking the same thing repeatedly: "Father, don't do this. Become a devotee." Stubborn. He was giving advice. This is the struggle between devotee and nondevotee. Therefore devotees are so dear to Kṛṣṇa. Despite all opposition, meeting all difficulties, they will say, "No, there is God. We must surrender." So he'll not be very dear? Just like soldiers for the country. They are meeting danger.
Prabhupāda: No, it is a fact. When Subhas Bapu... He was always pleading, "Gandhiji, these people are not to go by your nonviolence, and we have to take to violence." Gandhi would say, "I will not fight. Sva-rājya." Then Subash went outside India. Somehow or other, he organized. And when the Britishers saw that "The military force, they are joining national movement. Now it is no hope..." Because the Gurkhas and the Sikhs and other military races, they were cooperating with the Britishers, therefore they were maintaining. They could not bring soldiers from their country. And when they saw, "The soldiers are joining Subhas," they left. "Now independence." This is a fact. Otherwise Gandhi he was patting, "Mahatmaji, you are such a great man."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty times?
Prabhupāda: That was in 1936. Rice has increased after 1940.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At least it was twenty thousand rupees' value now.
Prabhupāda: All of a sudden rice has increased in 1942 by Churchill's artificial increasing his bribe to recruit soldiers. I have seen. Within two hours the price of rice, from six rupees it came to fifty rupees.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Completely artificial.
Prabhupāda: I was in the grocer's shop purchasing, and all of a sudden the grocer says, "No, no, I am not going to sell any more." He got some information. So that time, six rupees per mound, first class...
Bhavānanda: Mound.
Prabhupāda: So this business...
Śatadhanya: They waste all the time.
Upendra:
- dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv
- ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api
- teṣāṁ pramatto nidhanaṁ
- paśyann api na paśyati
- (SB 2.1.4)
"Persons devoid of ātma-tattva do not inquire into the problems of life, being too attached to the fallible soldiers like the body, children, wife, etc. Although sufficiently experienced, still they do not see their inevitable destruction."
Prabhupāda: What is the purport?
Prabhupāda: Still, Kṛṣṇa is afraid of mother's stick. This contradictory thing cannot be understood by one who is not devotee. Devotee can understand how much powerful is unalloyed devotional service to Kṛṣṇa, so much so He can be controlled by such devotee. Bhṛtya-vaśyata. That means under the control of the servant, but He is under the control of pure love by the servant. In the Bhagavad-gītā also, we see, Kṛṣṇa became the chariot driver of Arjuna. Arjuna is ordering Him, senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta (BG 1.21). Here Kṛṣṇa has agreed... (break) '...my chariot...' (break) '...to execute my order. Place my chariot between the two party soldiers.' Kṛṣṇa immediately executed his order. One may argue in this connection that Kṛṣṇa is also not independent. This is ajñāna, ignorance. Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. When He becomes subordinate to the devotees He is ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Humor of transcendental qualities increases transcendental pleasure. One who worships Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore sometimes desires to be controlled by somebody controller. Nobody else... (break) ...pure devotee." (end of tape playback section) Everyone worships Him as the Supreme, but sometimes He desires, "Somebody will control over."
Prabhupāda: This Gītā Pratiṣṭhāna is a good proposal, transport(?) Bhagavad-gītā As It Is all over the world. (indistinct)
Brahmānanda: When I was in Jammu, we went to visit a big army base there, Indian Army, huge.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Brahmānanda: Yes. And we went to visit one colonel, full colonel, in charge of supply. He's a very pious men. He tells his soldiers not to drink, not to eat meat, and he teaches them Bhagavad-gītā. So we went to go speak with him, and he was very impressed. He himself admitted that he was taking eggs and drinking tea. So I requested him to stop this, and then you'll be on the..., purely. And he could understand that. He agreed. He said, "From now on, from this day, I will stop." And we showed him the film, "Hare Kṛṣṇa People," and he was very impressed. He called another officer in, and they called their wives to come to the base, and we showed it a second time. And then he wanted some of our books. I gave him Bhagavad-gītā and Hindi Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and then told him about our Gurukula here in Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: How much he paid? (?)
Brahmānanda: Well, he was wanting to pay, but Nava-yogendra Mahārāja said it's all right... We asked him to become a member. He didn't want to pay so much money. So we gave him... Because he was an important officer, we gave him. Then he offered... He has some land 25 miles from Delhi, and he said, "We would like to give it for a Hindu temple."
| Page Title: | Soldiers (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Rishab, JayaNitaiGaura |
| Created: | 15 of Jun, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=143, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 143 |